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10-14-20 10:31AM
fresca is offline Click Here to See the Profile for fresca Click here to Send fresca a Private Message Find more posts by fresca Add fresca to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
fresca
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Banff Curling

Starts thurs at 4 pm mtn time
0n youtube

Why did koe , bottcher, appleman and sturmay get bys ?

Lots of young talent in alberta if you look at last weeks event in airdrie

Google banff curling to get link

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10-17-20 01:44AM
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curlingclips
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This is kind of a glossary/rules question: is there a name for a rock that bounced off the bumper, that was not immediately removed even though it should be by the rule since it's technically out-of-play?

Brendan Bottcher gave up a deuce vs Evan van Amsterdam via in-off using such a rock. Is this 100% legal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42uYKDqZ2pM

This happens quite often, in my observation. For example, at 2018 World Mixed Doubles Curling Championship, Anderson/Dropkin (USA) tried an in-off from a "bumper bouncer" to score 5 vs Zappone/Gonin (ITA).

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10-17-20 10:39AM
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fresca
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Yellow was shooting - and responsible for kicking off dead rock

Bottcher also responsible

So after a couple of shots the dead rock is in play in my opinion

Only 150 viewers and im guessing only a few noticed -

This is a casual spiel and with few spectators if 8 players dont notice it live - the tape doesnt mean anything

There are about 10 flukes a game in curling so one more wont matter - if it only happens every 3 years i- not a worry

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10-17-20 11:32AM
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curlingclips
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I forgot to add the link to the "dead rock" in-off for 5 that USA tried vs ITA in a world championship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPbl7tVyooo

Had they made it and scored 5, you think that's a perfectly acceptable result?

2018 Worlds didn't matter as far as Olympic points go, but what if it did?

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10-17-20 11:46AM
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fresca
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If the players leave it in play the die is cast

You cant replay a game because of an error like this or burnt rock or a fluke or shooting out of order - part of game

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10-17-20 12:32PM
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curlingclips
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
If the players leave it in play the die is cast


Here's 3 counterexamples just from 1 game at 2018 mixed doubles worlds, CAN vs CZE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsm-1miSvv0

In the first scenario, you could see that Jeff Stoughton was the first person who noticed the bumper bounce, and you could see that after one subsequent rock has been thrown, the umpire asked the Czech male to remove the dead rock.

Like you, some people also made up their own rules and said that you especially can't remove such a dead rock just before last stone of the end. The last scenario in the video shows exactly that: a dead rock was removed after one subsequent rock has been thrown, just in time for last stone of the 8th end (i.e. last stone of the game for mixed doubles).

If you can show me an example on video of a situation where the teams argued that the dead rock should stay, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, I think people are just making up their own rules when they say that dead rocks remain in play just because the players want it and/or just because another rock has been thrown and/or just because you can't remove it immediately before last stone of the end.

Last edited by curlingclips on 10-17-20 at 12:37PM

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10-17-20 01:25PM
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nelski
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It could've, should've been removed as soon as someone mentioned it. It wasn't. It was a mistake. If someone noticed or knew and did not declare, that is a breech of the rules, but why someone would hold that in their chest is speculation, and a doubtful reality. It came into play. It made a difference. In hind sight, yes, it should have been removed. Think of another sport, eg Tennis, where a shot, clearly OUT is not counted as a miss and the game rolls on with that point in the wrong athlete's favour. These things happen in sport. It doesn't need a name or a special rule. It is a mistake.

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10-17-20 02:31PM
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fresca
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Yep nelskis right

Its ok for stoughton to give heads up right away - would not have been right to move it 5 min later when someone decided to use it for a fluke shot - my term btw and its patented and carved in stone

Networks sometimes are allowed to show replays for burnt rocks - helps to,put them in correct place

Btw there are way too many of them the last few years - usually the same putz - borderline cheating / carelessness - shud be penalized like any other illegal thing - dont sweep so close that you fall on the rock

Last edited by fresca on 10-17-20 at 03:14PM

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10-17-20 06:43PM
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curlingclips
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
would not have been right to move it 5 min later

Now you're just making stuff up again.

The third example in the CAN vs CZE video is particularly enlightening:

* You can remove a dead rock that bounced off the bumper even after another rock has been thrown.
* You can do this even when 2 minutes had elapsed between the time the rock bounced off the bumper and the time the rock is actually pulled out-of-play
* You can do this even just before the last stone of the end.

It's not clear under whose authority the stone was pulled in the 3rd case, but if it's anything like the previous 2 cases, it was probably done to comply with the umpire's order. Assuming that's true, it's interesting to note that the rock was not pulled during the timeout.

Did the umpire not discover that the rock bounced off the bumper until after the timeout? What could possibly delay this discovery? Video playback review, perhaps?

In any case, I'm pretty sure the rule is as follows:
(i) if a rock bounced off the bumper, it is dead and out-of-play, and should be removed immediately
(ii) if the dead rock is not removed immediately, it can be removed whenever the umpire orders it so, no questions asked.

At the highest level of the sport, assuming competency and no scandalous bribery etc., the umpire better be damn sure that the rock did in fact bounce off the bumper, before making such an order.

References:
2020 WCF Rules of Curling
https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/...-Change-log.pdf

R2. STONES
(h) A stone that touches a divider or a side line is removed from play immediately and is prevented from entering adjacent sheets.

C10. UMPIRES
(b) The umpire determines any matter in dispute between teams, whether or not the matter is covered by the rules.
(c) An umpire may intervene at any time during a competition, and give directions concerning the placement of stones, the conduct of players and adherence to the rules.
(f) [...] In the event that there is an appeal against an umpire's decision, the decision of the Chief Umpire is final.

Last edited by curlingclips on 10-17-20 at 07:22PM

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10-17-20 07:27PM
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nelski
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Just a wee follow-up. In club curling, a rock that has to be removed is handled very effectively. Viewers behind the glass star pounding and pointing. One or both of the skips look up and someone removes the stone. In officiated play, where nobody on either team, nor an official noticed, but say, a camera operator (this has happened) or a spectator even, does notice and starts spreading the truth, to the ears of the official, I suppose, if it can be verified, it could be removed before the end of an end. But like Clips says, they better be darned well sure it is indeed a dead rock. This why they have observers sitting at the ends of the sheet in officiated play. They are not just there to keep score.

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Last edited by nelski on 10-17-20 at 07:29PM

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10-17-20 10:49PM
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fresca
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nelski we are wasting our time with this sea lawyer

doubt he has ever curled

like talking to trump

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10-18-20 03:51PM
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curlingclips
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
nelski we are wasting our time with this sea lawyer

doubt he has ever curled

like talking to trump


I bring an interesting topic for discussion, presenting video evidence and referenced official WCF rules.

You just made things up on the fly and started name-calling.

You did get one thing right: I've never curled, and have no desire to ever be a curler. I fell in love with the sport of curling nonetheless, at around 2017, and I'm obsessively consuming whatever material I can find on it. My perspective of the sport will always be limited by scope of what I can find on the internet.

In a more active role, I occasionally engage in discussions online. I don't fall into echo chambers easily, and will sometimes take a Devil's Advocate position to settle a debate.

Case in point, personally speaking, I think curling will be a much more exciting sport with simpler rules if stones are allowed to bounce off the bumpers and remain in play. The only way stones can go out of play is through the backline. That means no more easy half rock peels, constant in-off threats left and right, etc.

In my made-up version of curling, Gushue would simply score 3 vs Koe with the infamous bumper bounce at 2019 Champions Cup ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a1UFJqOPZU ).

No controversy, no confusion, no violation of the rules of curling, no need for commentators to explain what went wrong and what should've happened. Bumpers are solid so stones can bounce off of them, and that's it. Gushue scores 3 fair and square.

Last edited by curlingclips on 10-18-20 at 04:48PM

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10-18-20 10:10PM
fresca is offline Click Here to See the Profile for fresca Click here to Send fresca a Private Message Find more posts by fresca Add fresca to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
fresca
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lol

thats not name calling sunshine

btw study up on umpires in curling - volunteers that try - not quite as qualified as brain surgeons - most of there interference is scary

watch the video of the cranky lady measuring a rock a couple of years ago -

adam casey playing for gunner says to her - " this is your big moment "

umpire tells him to get lost

then she measures it "using her foot to swing the stick "- and points to the yellow

kennedy goes into shock - eventually gets a man to measure

if you like that clip you will love the one someone caught with iphone of marc behind brad doing an imitation of brad massaging his neck

probably best clip is the meleschuk v labonte victory jump and rock kick before they cud measure - that was not handled very well

curling is pretty boring - it needs a little color - like koe letting the kids kick him for 8 pts in a row today --- right up there with ferbey giving ns a 5 and the brier - priceless

Last edited by fresca on 10-18-20 at 10:13PM

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10-18-20 10:30PM
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curlingclips
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The worst officiating debacle I've seen is 2013 World Mixed Doubles, HUN vs SUI. This was made worse since a defective Eye on the Hog played a factor in this incident, and indeed throughout the event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IfJ1uG3KQ0

The awesome thing is that the curlers themselves behaved according to the spirit of curling in the best way. It was the umpires and the defective stone that messed everything up.

I'm not saying that the umpires never make mistakes. I'm saying that, for better or for worse, I want to learn about curling the way the sport is defined by WCF/Curling Canada/USA Curling/GSOC. I'm not interested in some made-up version of curling in someone's mind in this particular discussion (those can be fun too, but it's not what I'm looking for at the moment).

Last edited by curlingclips on 10-18-20 at 11:55PM

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10-19-20 06:31PM
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nelski
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Just so you know Clips - I really like your questions and posts. There are more people in the curling world who really don't get the game than there are of us who have it in our blood, for generations past. And we all know there is no such thing as a stupid question. Further, your research is awesome. Keep it up. ~~n

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10-19-20 08:18PM
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MeaghanEdwards
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quote:
Originally posted by nelski
Just so you know Clips - I really like your questions and posts. There are more people in the curling world who really don't get the game than there are of us who have it in our blood, for generations past. And we all know there is no such thing as a stupid question. Further, your research is awesome. Keep it up. ~~n


Quite agreed; I love your passion, Clips!

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10-20-20 10:21AM
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biterbar
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quote:
Originally posted by nelski
Just so you know Clips - I really like your questions and posts. There are more people in the curling world who really don't get the game than there are of us who have it in our blood, for generations past. And we all know there is no such thing as a stupid question. Further, your research is awesome. Keep it up. ~~n


Agreed, and the video clips on youtube are great!

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10-20-20 05:26PM
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decade
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

I bring an interesting topic for discussion, presenting video evidence and referenced official WCF rules.
I. Bumpers are solid so stones can bounce off of them, and that's it. Gushue scores 3 fair and square.


Bumpers are "solid" ?? Not the ones I have seen at the Scotties, Brier and CC and other events. Unless you consider foam " solid".

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Curling Scores

M: ATB Banff Classic
Banff, AB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Sun, Oct 18 -- 2:00pm MT
Koe Final
Harty (8)
M: Vaderstad Saskatchewan Super Series
Regina, SK
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Sun, Oct 18 -- 1:15pm MT
Kleiter Final
Dunstone (5)
M: Curling Masters Champery
Champery, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Sun, Oct 18 -- 12:30pm CET
Jungen Final
Schwaller (6)
: Red Deer Servus U18 Women
Red Deer, AB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Sun, Oct 18 -- 1:00pm MT
Plett Final
Booth (8)
: Red Deer Servus U18 Men
Red Deer, AB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Sun, Oct 18 -- 1:00pm MT
Whittmire 10  Final
Burton (7)
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