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01-08-15 12:53AM
draderman is offline Click Here to See the Profile for draderman Click here to Send draderman a Private Message Find more posts by draderman Add draderman to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
draderman
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intentionally burn a rock?

Has anyone ever seen a skip tell his sweepers to burn a rock while its traveling between hog lines? the other team did it in our game tonight and i was shocked. later my skip said they did it because it was going to hit our guard and take it out. it was still lead rocks being thrown. I didn't get it at the time, and i was pretty blown away and it made me a bit upset. it seemed really unsportsmanlike. am i wrong to feel this way? even if it was obvious the rock would have just been replaced anyway, shouldn't they still have gone thru the motions anyway? We had 3 picks between the two teams over 7 ends, so it just seems like anythings possible. I would appreciate anyone's input on this thanks

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01-08-15 08:46AM
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Curling Dave
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In this situation normally I would ask the opposing skip if he wants me to stop (burn) the rock before it hits the guard. If the opposing skip says no or does not respond, I let it play out. 9 times out of 10 the opposing skip will say yes and the game goes on.

Dave

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01-08-15 10:23AM
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ngm
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From the "Curler's Code of Ethics":

- I will never knowingly break a rule, but if I do, I will divulge the breach.

The intentions may have been innocent in the case of avoiding the consequences of removing a "free guard", but it's still a bad practice.

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01-08-15 10:28AM
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ngm
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quote:
Originally posted by Curling Dave
In this situation normally I would ask the opposing skip if he wants me to stop (burn) the rock before it hits the guard. If the opposing skip says no or does not respond, I let it play out. 9 times out of 10 the opposing skip will say yes and the game goes on.

Dave



I find it hard to believe that your teams remove free guards from play so often, and your opponents experience free guards being removed from play so often, that the opposing skip actually registers what it is you are talking about and responds in time, for you to be able to guesstimate something like a "9 times out of 10" to apply to this situation.

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01-08-15 10:56AM
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Second
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quote:
Originally posted by ngm


I find it hard to believe that your teams remove free guards from play so often, and your opponents experience free guards being removed from play so often, that the opposing skip actually registers what it is you are talking about and responds in time, for you to be able to guesstimate something like a "9 times out of 10" to apply to this situation.



It happens regularly enough in league play, that most experienced skips are not surprised. Not every night, but probably 2 to 3 times a year per team.
I don't think Dave's guestimate of 9 times out of ten is unreasonable.

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01-08-15 11:23AM
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steveneger
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by ngm
From the "Curler's Code of Ethics":

- I will never knowingly break a rule, but if I do, I will divulge the breach.

The intentions may have been innocent in the case of avoiding the consequences of removing a "free guard", but it's still a bad practice.




This. Can't intentionally do that, ever.

What if the guard isn't removed but moved somewhere better than up front? Don't know until it plays out.

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01-08-15 12:24PM
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guido
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Never burn a rock intentionally. In this case the guard could have been hit on the nose and raised into the house buried.

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01-08-15 09:52PM
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curlky
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It is sadly within the letter of the law, and legal in teh rule book. But as said before, the Spirit of Curling tends to say that you should not do it.

Someone earlier said that it should be done because it is impossible to replace the guard exactly in place. Per the rules, the team that got bumped out can place the rock where they thought it was.

As a skip, if my team knocks a guard out, I fully expect that the opposing skip will place the rock back into position, and I expect that they will error on the side of their benefit. In other words, if it was a center guard that was 3 inches short of center line, and gets replaced an inch closer to the center line, I am not surprised, and honestly not offended. The skip that calls for the deliberate burning of the rock cannot guarantee what the rocks will do. A rock could pick, or hit some frost, etc. so it is just arrogant to do.

If an opposing skip had their team intentionally burn a rock, I would have a serious issue, and be ticked off. And if they want to play by those rules, thats fine. But it should be known that the curling rule book has a lot of grey area, and I could be a real nuisance to their game by the letter of the law.

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01-09-15 08:09AM
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AlanMacNeill
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I'm going to be contrary...

Given that league level games are generally time limited (ie they have a window to get done in), and replacing a FGZ stone takes time...why waste the minute when it's obvious?

Yes, if there's reasonable doubt that the resultant contact will or will not be a FGZ violation, okay, cool, let it play out...but when the Hammer Team's first stone is obviously going to make 3/4 square contact with the previously placed guard with enough force to drive it out....just yank the stone and carry on...save the minute and don't worry about the drama.

As for deliberately burning a stone that you know is going to make your situation worse....yeah...that's uncool.

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01-09-15 04:36PM
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Viich
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Alan, I'm with you. I've either done this or said - go ahead and stop it if you want to the other skip for the FGZ violation case.

I will admit to kicking a rock off when I should have let it run - I burned it accidentally with my brush and I was so mad I kicked it - I was fairly young at the time. I didn't know it was going to make the situation worse for us, but my skip advised me after the play happened, and I apologized to the other team. That is dirty play, and I still feel bad about it.

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01-11-15 11:14AM
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dugless_zone 13
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Interesting yesterday in the mixed doubles, and kind of sad in a way, Mike McEwen touched a rock while sweeping it and everyone on the ice, and the CCA official didn't know the rule concerning the touched running rock.

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01-11-15 12:07PM
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dugless_zone 13
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not muddy at all, crystal clear; rule 10 (2) a0 basically if a rock is touched by the delivering team between the tee line at the delivering end and the hog line at the playing end it is removed from play immediately.

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01-11-15 05:11PM
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dugless_zone 13
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that is the wording. there is no option other than to remove it immediately.

10 (2)Between the tee line at the delivering end and the hog at the playing end:
(a)if a moving stone is touched, or is caused to be touched by the team to which it belongs or by its equipment, the touched stone is removed from play immediately by that team.

Last edited by dugless_zone 13 on 01-11-15 at 05:16PM

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01-11-15 06:25PM
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Jimbobogie
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
I'm going to be contrary...

Given that league level games are generally time limited (ie they have a window to get done in), and replacing a FGZ stone takes time...why waste the minute when it's obvious?

Yes, if there's reasonable doubt that the resultant contact will or will not be a FGZ violation, okay, cool, let it play out...but when the Hammer Team's first stone is obviously going to make 3/4 square contact with the previously placed guard with enough force to drive it out....just yank the stone and carry on...save the minute and don't worry about the drama.

As for deliberately burning a stone that you know is going to make your situation worse....yeah...that's uncool.



What are you referring t as "Time Limit:? A team's game clock stops when the rock s delivered, so there's no clock to deal with.
Deliberately burning a rock is definitely against the spirit of curling, but today's game barely resembles the original, does it?

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01-11-15 07:51PM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobogie


What are you referring t as "Time Limit:? A team's game clock stops when the rock s delivered, so there's no clock to deal with.
Deliberately burning a rock is definitely against the spirit of curling, but today's game barely resembles the original, does it?



Your local club must have a hella lot of resources if you clock rec league games

I'm referring to things like our Monday Night Men's...2 draws, 7:15 and 9:30, and if the first game isn't off the ice at 9:15, there's hell to pay.

IN that sort of scenario, anything that doesn't destroy the rules but speeds things up is welcome...and that includes deliberately burning a rock that is going to have to be reset anyhow.

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11-24-22 03:35AM
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herrylauu
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Then there are the fortifications, which are probably going to have a lot of bugs, and when a player leaves a fortification, there could be all kinds of exploits used because the unit is now more open to being shot to pieces. stumble guys

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