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11-05-20 02:30PM
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I agree with you that I think this sounds like a very vague term to define, but commentators/teams do use the phrase in very specific situations, i.e. they would explicitly verbalize "This is a setup shot", and I just want to understand what it is that they mean by that.

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that a setup shot suggests that something went horribly wrong and not according to plan, and you have no shot right now. If this is your last stone, you'd be fine with just throwing it away, but since you have one more rock, you try to make a setup shot as a last resort.

The setup shot will open up something for your last, but since it was not in the original plan, it also tends to be easy to neutralize. So you need a miss/half shot from your opposition for the setup shot to do any good.

The desperation in this critical situation tends to be obvious, so pressure mounts, and huge drama ensues if the curling gods were in your favor.

I could be completely wrong about all of that, though. Maybe anything except the hammer is basically a setup shot, so the phrase is basically meaningless.

Last edited by curlingclips on 11-05-20 at 02:37PM

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11-05-20 03:07PM
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You might be overthinking it... A setup shot is a shot that specifically sets up a following shot. 1) It doesn't need to be a get out of jail situation. For example, a team with last rock has an open hit available, but opts to play the freeze to line up a shot for 2 on their next. I'd call that a setup shot. 2) There's a plan for every rock thrown before last rock, but not all shots specifically set up the following shot. I think a setup shot should 'setup' a specific shot. Like I said, you might hit and roll to not group your rocks. Or you might peel a rock to open things up. Those don't set up a specific following shot. But if you hit and roll to an area to leave yourself a double takeout on the next shot, then I'd call it a setup shot.

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11-05-20 05:44PM
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You're probably right that setup shots are more general than what I have in mind. You hear it all the times, that leads need to place guards perfectly to set up the end, that you don't want to "set anything up" for the opposition, etc.

Sometimes they do say something like "Guys, we've got nothing! We just have to make a setup shot so we'll have something with our last!", but those are rare. I probably just remember those moments more because of the extra drama.

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11-06-20 10:26PM
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This should be well-defined: what is a "line shot"?

When the team discusses a shot to be made and they agree that "This is a line shot", what are they agreeing on?

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11-06-20 11:14PM
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In my day on the ice lanes - the common phrase was

"A TAD"

A tad more weight, a tad more ice, tad less ice, tad less weight, etc., etc.

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11-07-20 03:05PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
This should be well-defined: what is a "line shot"?

When the team discusses a shot to be made and they agree that "This is a line shot", what are they agreeing on?


It means that the direction is all important. Speed of the rock doesn't matter. Usually a takeout and assumes rock will have at least through the house weight.

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11-07-20 04:08PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alex

It means that the direction is all important. Speed of the rock doesn't matter.


Yep, this is my understanding as well.

More precisely, I think a "line shot" is a shot that can be made within quite a wide weight range, and the most important thing to make the shot is the line.

So in most cases, this is a simpler shot to make than the usual critical shot, where often both line and weight have to be precise.

I've heard this used when a team is trying to guard the 4-foot, and they declared it a line shot because it doesn't matter if it's a high guard or biting top 12, it just has to perfectly protect the 4-foot from a specific line-of-sight out of the hack (could be "dead bury", "Christmas tree", "edge to edge", etc.)

I've also heard this used when making a short tap into a nearby pocket. Since there's backing, weight can vary, but where you make contact is critical, hence a line shot.

Probably my favorite example of a "line shot" is John Shuster's nose hit to secure the bronze for USA vs AUS in 2019 World Mixed Doubles. The most important thing is to sit frozen on the nose, weight can be almost anything. He started with proposing board weight, dialed it down to solid hack/hack/soft hack, Cory bargained for back line weight, John eventually settled with "space" weight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD0AViS-0SE

Last edited by curlingclips on 11-07-20 at 05:58PM

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11-08-20 10:12AM
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The opposite is a weight shot, where the line doesn’t need to be precise but the weight needs to be perfect.
Space weight - enough weight for the rock to end up in the ‘space’ between the back line and the hack. Coined by Wesley Forget.

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11-14-20 10:44AM
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What do they mean when they say "You don't have to whip it!" or "I'm not whipping it!", etc?

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgjlYVhGkIc&t=1m44s

Last edited by curlingclips on 11-14-20 at 10:50AM

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11-14-20 11:48AM
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Whip it means throw it hard. Peel weight.

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11-14-20 03:30PM
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So it's pure weight and nothing about a specific technique? Because some curlers have specific hand techniques to add some weight.

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX2p79EfmY&t=56m35s
"Emma really extends on those peels, she just shoves them!"

So I agree that to "whip it" is to throw it hard, but maybe it's also a specific reference to this special "add" technique from the hand, in addition to the kick?

Some people think this "add" sacrifices accuracy, so maybe when they say "You don't have to whip it!", they're saying "You do have to throw it hard, but you can meet the weight required to make this shot with just the kick, no need to add with the hand!".

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11-19-20 01:05AM
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This is probably obvious, but just in case: what does "Right up!" mean as a sweeping call? Often used repeatedly, e,g. "Right up! Right up! Right up!".

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11-19-20 11:37AM
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would like to see a video of someone using the 'whip it' technique if you can find one.

right up probably means to keep sweeping, right up to the target.

But usually I've heard 'right up' said in reference to the speed of the ice. If the speed is right up, the ice is as fast as it usually gets.

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11-19-20 03:52PM
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Unfortunately I'm still not good enough to "read" curling deliveries at technical level. It took me a while before I even noticed that the rock is rotating down the ice due to deliberate turn. Took me even longer to notice clockwise vs counterclockwise. I still can't read if a thrower is on the broom or not.

For example, Mike Harris saw immediately that Niklas Edin poked it out wide with his extension that one time and blundered a 4-ender vs Brad Gushue in the 2017 Canadian Open final. I wouldn't be able to see that live, and I'm still not sure if I'm seeing it with slow motion replay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVCF7-PGY34

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11-19-20 04:05PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
For example, Mike Harris saw immediately that Niklas Edin poked it out wide with his extension that one time and blundered a 4-ender vs Brad Gushue in the 2017 Canadian Open final. I wouldn't be able to see that live, and I'm still not sure if I'm seeing it with slow motion replay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVCF7-PGY34


It is much easier to see from the end of the sheet, when you are holding the broom. That said, if you watch again, you will see his fingers, under the handle (not his thumb) do indeed push the stone sideways a bit. He "manipulated" it. He "played with the rock". It wasn't a clean release. So I'd say it is more in his release than in his extension alone. He might've realized he was "off" in line so was trying to correct. That is always a crapshoot.

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11-19-20 04:13PM
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This 1987 Brier game between Russ Howard and Mark Noseworthy has probably a hundred "Right up!", I'm not even kidding.

Here's one moment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJApMW0Rz7Q&t=9m30s

"HURR-RAY! Real hard! Hurry-hurry-hurry! Hurry-hurry! Come on! Come on! Right up! Right up! Right up! Come on! Right up! Right up!"

Here's another example, from Arsenault vs Einarson, 2018 Scotties semifinal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR2PlP88YrE&t=30m14s

(coast to coast sweeping) "Hard girls! Keep going!"

Then at the end:

"Okay! (broom raise)" / "Right up! Right up! (broom raise)"

It almost feels like "Right up!" is used near the end of vigorous sweeping, maybe to signal when to stop? I'm not 100% sure.

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11-19-20 04:37PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nelski
...if you watch again, you will see his fingers, under the handle (not his thumb) do indeed push the stone sideways a bit...


I can NOT see this, no. On pure visual, I just can NOT read some of the finer technical aspects of curling.

What I CAN see, is that relative to the center line, the stone does move sideways away from it faster after release. However, I would expect that to be the case anyway, whenever the arm/hand is used to add weight to the original kick from the leg drive (i.e. it's more to do with the additional speed than it is with a misdirection).

None of this confirms my suspicion that "whipping it" is related to arm/hand/extension/add technique and/or the trade-off between adding weight at the expense of accuracy, etc. I'm just purely guessing that "whipping it" is probably related to something you do with the hand/arm, that's all.

If you come up to a stranger out of the blue and point them to an object on the floor and ask them to "whip it", they'll probably do a hand/arm action. That'd be my guess from my understanding of the English language.

Last edited by curlingclips on 11-19-20 at 04:45PM

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11-19-20 04:45PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
I can NOT see this, no. On pure visual, I just can NOT read some of the finer technical aspects of curling.

Clips... find clips of a couple of other close-ups of Edin's release. His draw releases will be cleaner, and hits should also be clean. This one, he had his paws all over it.

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11-19-20 05:06PM
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I'm not joking, I think I have some sort of mental disability that makes it much harder for me to judge and measure human bodies at that level. This is probably why curling is one of the very few sports that I find appealing, because most of it is about the rocks, not the humans. It's not like figure skating, for example, where I just can't see a triple axel no matter how much you try to describe it to me.

Now, some people will disagree with me and say that curling is all about the humans, but just have a look at Wikipedia page for Al Hackner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Hackner

There's no photo of Al Hacker. There's a diagram for the Hackner double!

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11-20-20 03:08PM
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OK here's a fun one. Here's a clip of lead Dawn McEwen attempting a tricky hit-and-roll, missed the called shot, but got probably a better result with a much harder hit-and-roll going the other way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo1ZRJwFICg&t=1h54m14s

Let's break down the conversation to understand what was said. I'm pretty sure I got it right for the most part, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Weagle's last shot is a "come around" that "tucks a piece" behind the corner guard ("Christmas tree" pattern). Jones wants to "chase" it, and Lawes asked if they want to "nose" it to get little to no roll. Jones clarified that she wants to hit it on the "high" side and roll away away from center line. Calling this shot requires "more ice" than nosing, which avoids being "cute" with the guard and thus less risk of "wracking" on it.

Bernard presciently pointed out that the rock will curl, and that "jamming" the takeout on their own rock in back 12 is a real possibility. In fact it did overcurl! Vigorous sweeping got them "by the guard" (barely!), but now they're not going to hit the rock where they originally wanted to and they risk "jamming" the takeout! Thankfully the rock continued to curl so much that they ended up hitting the rock on the "low" side (i.e. hitting it "cross-face", past the "nose" point of the rock, the opposite side that Jones wanted to hit of the rock).

By hitting it "low" side, they managed to roll their "shooter" in towards the centerline, tucking even more piece behind the guard!

They didn't execute the shot that they called for, but they instead pulled off a much harder shot, and arguably got a better result from it! (I believe this is called a "fluke" sometimes).

The next part is where I'm lost. The commentators, I believe, were joking around and called this "the Brooklyn". This is probably not serious, but can anyone explain this reference?

Last edited by curlingclips on 11-20-20 at 04:29PM

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11-20-20 07:46PM
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Loved watching the Pat Ryan vs. Iceman Hackner '87 Brier final from Moncton.

The Dons - Duguid & Wittman are generally recognized as the premiere announcer & color men (well at least until Russ Howard & Kevin Martin retired to the booth) but they were absolutely lost and total messes in this game.

Duguid proclaimed Ryan had "Won the Brier" when he made that little hit 'n roll with his final stone. Wittman was equally unimpressive when he started speculating and infected Duguid temporarily with "the only shot left is the long-raise split double" before Hackner & Rock 'n Roll Lang decided to pull off their infamous "Greatest Shot ever" mega-skinny double to tie the game and then bag Ryan in the extra.

Maybe thats why Ryan rarely skipped after that - teaming successfully with High Lord Ferbey.

But the commentary was weak sauce. Duguid & Witt couldn't see the shot until Hackner called it. Today, almost all announcers, except Brian the heavy kid on Sportsnet would see the shot immediately.

Trouble is - not only did Duguid & Wittman think Ryan had won the Brier - Ryan did, too as he prematurely celebrated with his corn-broom raised 5 feet above his head after rolling in behind - but maybe an inch too far . . . ! ! !

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11-20-20 08:58PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
The next part is where I'm lost. The commentators, I believe, were joking around and called this "the Brooklyn". This is probably not serious, but can anyone explain this reference?


Brooklyn comes from 10 pin bowling. Normally to get a strike you want to hit the headpin on the high side. A brooklyn is when the ball curves too much and hits the headpin on the low side but still results in a strike.

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11-20-20 09:40PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hogged again

Brooklyn comes from 10 pin bowling. Normally to get a strike you want to hit the headpin on the high side. A brooklyn is when the ball curves too much and hits the headpin on the low side but still results in a strike.



Holy moly, that's a very satisfying answer! One theory for why it's called the Brooklyn (or apparently the Jersey if you're from Brooklyn) is pretty funny too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKnHPqBJWck&t=37s

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11-28-20 12:25AM
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Can I get confirmation on what "minimum" and "maximum" mean?

My understanding is that within the context of "putting down the broom", i.e. to give the correct amount of "ice" for a shot, there is a small range within which the shot is makeable. The low end is "minimum", and the high end is "maximum".

So in other words, if the ice is already at maximum, asking for more ice probably results in the line being too wide to make the shot. On the flip side, if the ice is already at minimum, asking for less ice probably results in the line being too tight to make the shot.

Between minimum and maximum, some adjustments either way may be acceptable.

Am I understanding that correctly?

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