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05-10-20 04:40PM
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curlingclips
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This is a nice featurette on the Garlic Girls by WSJ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hIFDfP9rNc

I'm willing to bet that if we ask everyone in the world right now to identify someone from a picture, maybe not by name but by sport and nationality, Eun-Jung Kim in her 2018 Olympics uniform and glasses will win by a landslide amongst all female curlers past and present.

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05-19-20 12:10AM
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Mike Harris claims that over 100 million people watched the bronze medal game at 2018 Olympics, and that Team Fujisawa are bonafide celebrities in Japan. It's going to be really tough to beat that number if we're talking popularity contest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWjkrBxOlQY&t=55m53s

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05-20-20 08:01AM
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Thanks for the info about Kaitlyn Lawes being JJ's 3rd during her epic match with Sask's Amber Holland.

Kaitlyn was obviously still in her very green stage and totally fearful of contradicting Jones on linecalls. It really bit them in the end, didn't it?

Also note, the last tournament of Hearts Jones won - it was none other than young Shannon Birchard working as Jones's vice - Birchard put down a sensational performance in helming Jones to her 6th (and prolly final) Scotties championship.

In actuality, Jones may have presented her most powerful team ever at this event.
Birchard, the biggest rising star in Manitoba curling, seamlessly took over vice duties with Jones and knew how to mollify the often moody & indecisive Jones on the T.
Jill Officer, one of the greatest power-curlers in curling history made her final appearance as Jones 2nd.
And Dawn McEwen blew away all comers at lead - the top lead averaging an unprecedented 94% thru the week.
In fact all the members of Jones team were top of the charts in terms of percentages. Even the declining Jones managed to cobble together some very impressive stats on her way to gold.

Only asterisk for Jones was an obvious lack of serious competition at the event.

A shaky Michelle Englot helmed Team Canada, replacing the absent Rachel Homan, Jones greatest nemesis last few years. Englot feebled out at this event.

Kerri Einarson, still trying to find her maximal confidence tried standing up to Jones in the golden game, but withered badly vs. a blistering performance from JJ.

Birchard hung in with a surprisingly feisty Selena Kaatz at 3rd while Officer blew away Liz Fyfe, the Einarson 2nd.

Post Penticton - I do believe Birchard has come out the best, now the top 2nd in the game, serving under veterans Einarson & Val Sweeting.

Officer is now retired.

Dawn is still fighting to get one more with Jones.

Likewise Jones.

Joss Peterman has been assigned the hardest of duties - fresh new player on a fairly stale veteran team. Joss is struggling but she's under contract.

A weakened Jones is still a dangerous Jones. Because of her competitive schedule around the world she'll always be near the top in CTRS points. And the only real strong competition for the Manitoba crests - import Tracy Fleury + current Canadian champion Kerri Einarson.

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05-20-20 01:44PM
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It's so hard to rank 8ndiv9dual curlers. I cant really decide right now but my top 10( in no particular order) would be:

Eva lund
Eve muirhead
Sandra schmirler
Jan betker
Jeanna schraeder
Rachel Homan
Jennifer jones
Mirjam ott
Marie-France larouche
Heather nedohin

Honestly , I know a lot of people would have norberg on that list but she had most of her success only after eva Lund joined at third. Eva was the key to that teams success. Brilliant shot maker. Truly. I feel one of if not the best thirds to have ever played the game

Honorable mention to kaitlyn lawes, amber holland, jill officer, dordi nordby, kim Kelly and Anna hasselborg , Sara McManus, Emma musker and anna sidorova who are just outside for me tje top 10

Men are a lot harder but, just going off individual ability then, in no order:

John Morris
Kevin martin
Glenn howard
Wayne middaugh
Richard hart
Jeff stoughton
John epping
Brett gallant
Oskar eriksson
Bruce mouat

Honorable mention to john shuster , brad Jacobs, al hackner, Jonathan mead, david Murdoch and pat Ryan , ed werenich, kevin Joe, pat Simmons and matt dunstone who are just outside my top 10

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05-20-20 02:28PM
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IMO the one person missing from your men's list is Kevin koe, arguably best pure shooter ever

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05-20-20 02:37PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
IMO the one person missing from your men's list is Kevin koe, arguably best pure shooter ever


Yes! . Cant believe I forgot him but he is definitely up there. Added him along with Simmons and dunstone, who I believe is tje best young talent this country has just on individual level

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05-21-20 12:29AM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1


Yes! . Cant believe I forgot him but he is definitely up there. Added him along with Simmons and dunstone, who I believe is tje best young talent this country has just on individual level


What about Nik Edin? 4 world championships with 3 different teams?

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05-21-20 02:18AM
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When he first surfaced into my consciousness Kevin Martin asked: "Who's that little bald guy out there? He's making every shot!"

Jonathan Mead (Stoughton's 3rd) should be on the list of great shot-makers imho.

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05-21-20 08:49PM
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Two of the most underrated shooters who just made shot after shot: Don Walchuk and Kim Kelly.

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05-21-20 11:53PM
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I can stay silent no longer. . .
No mention at all of Brad Gushue or Mark Nichols. I guess an Olympic gold, three Briers, and a World gold doesn't get you much anymore! I know this is about "shooters" and not necessarily titles, but personally. if I had to ask a current male curler to do a draw for me, I would choose Gushue (with Gallant and Walker sweeping, of course). If I was a take-out or a double or triple, Nichols would be high on the list, as would Gushue (a certain K. Koe and perhaps a Mr. Epping would also merit considerable consideration).

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05-22-20 12:37AM
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Agree with the last poster 'MKL' that almost all members of the Gushue rink deserve consideration at their positions.

All are strong, dominant players at their positions.

Gushue might be the best combination of mind and mechanics. He's approaching Kevin Martin levels with his approach to the game. A singularly strong shooter who rarely misses combined with a gargantuan curling mind (thanks Russ Howard)
Mark Nichols sometimes looks like the non-descript guy - he's not flashy by any means and to many folks he doesn't look like a super athlete. But make no mistake. He is.

Gallant is the dominant athlete on Team Gushue. But he's a brilliant brusher, too. One of the best in the game. In any other world, Gallant is a skip or 3rd. But on Team Goo - he's a front end superstar.

If I were ranking top-shooting teams over the last 40-50 yrs it would be foolish not to have Gushue team not in the Top 5 or 6, at the very least.

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05-22-20 02:04AM
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quote:
Originally posted by MKL
If I was a take-out or a double or triple, Nichols would be high on the list, as would Gushue

Wait a minute... I thought it's sort of public knowledge that Gushue can't throw a hard hit anymore due to injury? Or at least he prefers not to do so because of the injury?

This was true at least in 2017, as he himself said on his Facebook commentary of the Brier final ( https://www.facebook.com/2264492473...49047768753373/ ).

And this was true at least in 2019, or at least Mark Nichols joked so to Ryan Fry. He said something to the effect of "He can't throw it that hard!" (from 2019 Players Championship https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PB6EWR_b-A&t=1h54m12s ).

I guess there are such a thing as a lighter weight doubles and triples, but I didn't think that's what you meant when you put Mark Nichols in the same sentence.

Last edited by curlingclips on 05-22-20 at 02:16AM

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05-22-20 08:42AM
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Make no mistake - Goo can still toss heavy weight and relatively hard hits. However, he can never toss animal weight like:

- Kevin Koe
- Brad Jacobs
- Pat Ryan (in his prime)
- Nik Edin

In the women's game some of our top players can toss very hard weight - Miskew, Birchard, Einarson, Carey, Casey Schiedegger, even Jen Jones at times but none of them can spring for the vicious killer-weight occasionally utilized by Homan. Nobody. Perhaps Jill Officer in her prime.

Even top players like K Lawes, Kelly Scott (in her prime), Connie Laliberte, Coco Jones, etc. were unable to toss vicious runners. Heck, Kelly Scott could barely throw heavy hack.

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05-22-20 01:53PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

Wait a minute... I thought it's sort of public knowledge that Gushue can't throw a hard hit anymore due to injury? Or at least he prefers not to do so because of the injury?



That is true to an extent, but, as Manitoba Legend correctly says, Gushue can still throw hard take-out weight. If a take-out required "ludicrous speed*," Kevin Koe would definitely be at the top of the list. For a precise hit or double, Gushue would be my guy.
Please see this example from 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjZHGi6T9lc
As well, the double for a blank from 9th end (time on the video of 2:06:00) during the epic comeback at this year's Brier versus B. Jacobs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E-Z4WPNbw0&t=4s
Other examples are available. .

* Please note, quote from the movie "Spaceballs" (1987)

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05-22-20 02:58PM
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MKL, in the 2019 example (pick for 3 vs BC), you can hear Gushue says"Just easy" to the frontend before he throws. The 2020 example vs NO, I don't hear the weight call, but it doesn't look like a heavy weight for me. (I'm not a curler, so my eyes can only tell so much, and I'm not trained to do hog-to-hog timing either).

I'm not questioning that Gushue is a shotmaker (which was the original argument). I'm now wondering about a tangentially related issue: can Gushue throw heavy weights post-injury? What's the heaviest weight shot you recall he threw recently?

In his Facebook commentary, he joked around about who is to blame whenever he missed a shot. He admitted that he overthrew some shots, but he also said that he hasn't overthrown a peel for quite some years.

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05-22-20 04:10PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
In his Facebook commentary, he joked around about who is to blame whenever he missed a shot. He admitted that he overthrew some shots, but he also said that he hasn't overthrown a peel for quite some years.


Yes, I understand what you're getting at. As you well know, curling terminology can be slightly confusing, at best.
When I say that Gushue can still throw hard weight, I mean he can still throw peel weight (he said that he has not overthrown a peel, which to me means that he feels he can still throw a regular peel), which is sufficient for almost all doubles and some triples. Any really flat double is out of reach for him (whereas Koe, Jacobs, Nichols, etc., etc. can throw heavy peel or ultra heavy take-outs). Ever since his hip injury (around 2016, I believe), he hasn't been able to really bomb it. Before that, he was very proficient in the shot, basically as good as Nichols (AKA Bam Bam), but I believe he didn't use it that often.
I can't remember any examples of him going ultra-heavy recently, but I guess what I said above explains that.

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05-22-20 05:04PM
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Here's a transcript of Gushue's last rock, 3rd end of the 2017 Brier final. It's a double to prevent the deuce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlOx4h1ToGs&t=43m15s

Russ: "Brad because of his injury can't throw it quite hard as he used to, but he doesn't need much more than normal here" (thick half, 60% according to Brad)

Here's his commentary of this shot, https://www.facebook.com/2264492473...49047768753373/

Brad (at 38m30s): "For me, on a typical day, that double is not extremely hard, but the way I was feeling, it was kind of... I was not looking forward to throwing this... You had to throw it at a certain speed to be able to make it, and I knew doing that that it was going to be a little bit of a discomfort in there, so... I think anybody can relate, anytime you have an injury or discomfort or pain and you know you're going to aggravate it, you're kind of hesitant to do it..."

Minutes later he said that he really struggled on the doubles and bigger weight hits during that year's Hot Shots competition. He had to get 5s on all the softer weight shots just to get 3rd place.

So on a bad day, even normal weight is not easy on Brad. (Note however that the actual throw may have been more than normal, I couldn't hear what weight he called, and he had extra weight to fully kill the rock at the side bumper).

This is not a diss on him, by the way. I actually admire that he was able to win lots of games despite of the team's known weaknesses and skip the game so they can play more to their strengths.

Last edited by curlingclips on 05-22-20 at 05:20PM

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05-22-20 05:44PM
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im not trying to diss gushue and nichols or anyone. the thing with making list or ranking anything/anyone is that you will inevitably leave some great names out.

im happy with my ranking , i dont feel like i want to take anyone out in favor of gushue and or nichols.

i still acknowledge them as fantastic players and im sure that most others would have them in their top 10 or 20 but, like i said in making any ranking you have to make some hard choices

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05-22-20 05:49PM
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I didn't think anyone was dissing anyone by making lists. I was mostly trying to defend myself, because I did more than just making lists. I dug up videos and provide transcriptions of what was said. That was quite a bit of effort, and I wanted to let it be known that it was not fueled by personal hatred against Gushue or something like that. I'm a fan if anything.

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05-22-20 07:02PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
im not trying to diss gushue and nichols or anyone. the thing with making list or ranking anything/anyone is that you will inevitably leave some great names out.

im happy with my ranking , i dont feel like i want to take anyone out in favor of gushue and or nichols.

i still acknowledge them as fantastic players and im sure that most others would have them in their top 10 or 20 but, like i said in making any ranking you have to make some hard choices



You should be happy with your ranking, misty1, I agree. Any ranking is just a matter of opinion, in any case. One of the problems with communicating by print is that it is difficult to express emotion or intent. The intent of my original post was supposed to be slightly tongue in cheek, but it may not have come off like that when reading it. I was trying to make an argument that both Gushue and Nichols should be at least mentioned by someone! My list would have Gushue on it, and Nichols would be at worst very close, but that is my opinion. Your opinion is as valid as mine.

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05-22-20 07:59PM
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Well, since I brought it up, is the Ford Hot Shots a fair measure of shotmaking skills? Obviously the field is limited only to those who made it to the Scotties & Brier that year, so that eliminates a whole bunch of curlers from the get go, and I think they scramble the teams so you might not have your original line caller and sweepers, but on the surface, this is what we're talking about, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Hot_Shots

There are some of the usual names, but also some that haven't been mentioned so far that have won multiple times on the women side. Only Steve Gould repeated on the men's side (2018 doesn't count because of the format change, no longer individuals, it became a team competition).

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05-24-20 08:51PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
like i said in making any ranking you have to make some hard choices


Agreed is good debate and opinion is subjective but I gotta say that having Mouat and Mari-France Larouche in the top ten seems like a stretch. Of course I'd put Laliberte in my top 10 and most wouldn't so....

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05-25-20 08:32AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hogged again


Agreed is good debate and opinion is subjective but I gotta say that having Mouat and Mari-France Larouche in the top ten seems like a stretch. Of course I'd put Laliberte in my top 10 and most wouldn't so....



The Ice Queen, Connie Laliberte brings us a debate all its own.
Laliberte was an excessively shy & glum performer who managed to gun down Canada's best women curlers for 3 STOH championships.
The first 2/3 of her career were glorious. Like Rachel Homan she was a gifted (practiced) shot-pelter who excelled at hitting.
Once the FGZ entered the lexicon of curling Connie was all too often stupefied by the complexity of the game - and she didn't perform at the same levels. Quite a stark decline actually. She's still younger than Colleen Jones, MaryAnne Arsenault & Sherry Anderson but hasn't tossed competitive rocks for nearly 20 years. Hasn't even put a serious entry into the senior ladies last few years either.

But as a technical hitter who could crush competitors simply on the basis of her superior technical skills and hi hit percentage she was unsurpassed - until perhaps Rachel Homan came of age!

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