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03-11-21 05:10AM
The Waco Kid is offline Click Here to See the Profile for The Waco Kid Find more posts by The Waco Kid Add The Waco Kid to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
The Waco Kid
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Debate: Return Brier to its roots?

Hi everyone,

New user here and I thought I would jump right in with a debate about the Brier. Interested to hear the pros and cons of getting the Brier back to being a true national championship with teams meeting strict residency rules and reducing the number of teams to enable the one group round robin. IMO, the flavour of the event has been almost lost with the current residency exceptions and inclusion of the wildcard team. What are the pros and cons of returning the Brier back to it's traditional format? Would teams choose to not bother with the Brier given the Tour and Olympics? Could the Olympic berth be tied to the Brier to an extent that you would have to meet the residency rules in order to be eligible for the Trials? Has the sport moved beyond the Brier and is this really a good thing? Cheers.

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03-11-21 08:55AM
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I'm liking having the additional top wildcard teams at the Brier this year for sure... Better teams = more excitement = better viewing for the fans.

However, many games you can still tell who's going to win before the game starts...

Going to a Brier with the top 8-12 teams based on rankings + 1 junior champ + 1-2 Amateur champ(s) could be the way to go. This would be similar of how the Roar of the Rings works today.

The Amateur champ could use the traditional provincial jurisdictions and residency rules in place today.

Some of these changes would also try to improve on the # of teams entered into the competitions.

Proof of this is in NFLD when Gushue first won the Brier. The year he was Team Canada, the # of teams entered in the NFLD playdowns quadrupled...

Bottom line is I really think the Brier should be the "big show" event for curling in Canada, like the Stanley Cup of Hockey. I don't like the idea of having the Brier Champ getting a spot in the Canada Cup and the Canada Cup being the event to determine the world rep.

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03-11-21 08:47PM
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The residency rules are quite obviously ridiculous. When 'insert province name here' does not mean that province, but means merely 'somewhere in Canada, no-one can take this seriously.
Specifically, get rid of the import rule. If they want to play around with 'birth province' and 'living in province', that's ok - but NO imports should be permitted.

There are enough other events where the top teams - including more than one from a given province - can compete against each other - so there's no need to bend and twist the rules of the Brier, as Curling Canada has done.

As the Brier is the National Championship, all provinces and territories should be represented. In other sports, teams that are not very good are still permitted to play. It's the only time of the year that curlers from the Territories, etc. get to bask in a bit of the spotlight - and no harm is done, so allow them in.

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03-11-21 09:49PM
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
The residency rules are quite obviously ridiculous. When 'insert province name here' does not mean that province, but means merely 'somewhere in Canada, no-one can take this seriously.
Specifically, get rid of the import rule. If they want to play around with 'birth province' and 'living in province', that's ok - but NO imports should be permitted.

There are enough other events where the top teams - including more than one from a given province - can compete against each other - so there's no need to bend and twist the rules of the Brier, as Curling Canada has done.

As the Brier is the National Championship, all provinces and territories should be represented. In other sports, teams that are not very good are still permitted to play. It's the only time of the year that curlers from the Territories, etc. get to bask in a bit of the spotlight - and no harm is done, so allow them in.





"Like"

How about the teams that have one "import" then a couple of out of province birth rites, and then one that pretends to live there. ......and it's been done and still being done with the blind eyes of both CC and the member associations....subliminal Alberta, Ontario, and BC the Johnny Mo years. It's possible for a team to have ZERO residents compete for said province or territory.
The territories will always be included going forward as the feds fund CC to make it so. CC it's all about the money, money, money. How else do they pay for their red coats? Seriously, If they try cutting out teams, they kill grass roots curling even more-so than they have already. The dangling bone of Olympic medals has killed curling in Canada except for the the top PROFESSIONAL teams, that are doing all they can to promote themselves at the expense of the teams in Canada ranked 10-50 and beyond. It's more about "Make the game about the top teams" and much less about how can we grow the game both nationally and local.

It's very ironic that the biggest proponent for turning the Brier into just another big slam is none other than Kevin Martin, the same man that boycotted the Brier to get paid..... Hmmmm.

Just because many of the top teams have lots of sponsor money and are borderline full time curlers, they shouldn't be able to "buy" their way into the Brier just by travelling and playing in 15 spiels to get enough points to be wild cards, whilst the rest of the real world curlers play half as many events and have real jobs.

Real long story short, keep the Brier as it was. Let the slam teams play the slams, if you want to go to the Brier, win your province and if you don't, too bad.

Again, sorry, here endeth the rant.

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03-11-21 09:59PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2




Real long story short, keep the Brier as it was. Let the slam teams play the slams, if you want to go to the Brier, win your province and if you don't, too bad.



Amen

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03-11-21 10:21PM
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
The residency rules are quite obviously ridiculous. When 'insert province name here' does not mean that province, but means merely 'somewhere in Canada, no-one can take this seriously.
Specifically, get rid of the import rule. If they want to play around with 'birth province' and 'living in province', that's ok - but NO imports should be permitted.

There are enough other events where the top teams - including more than one from a given province - can compete against each other - so there's no need to bend and twist the rules of the Brier, as Curling Canada has done.

As the Brier is the National Championship, all provinces and territories should be represented. In other sports, teams that are not very good are still permitted to play. It's the only time of the year that curlers from the Territories, etc. get to bask in a bit of the spotlight - and no harm is done, so allow them in.



I really wish there was a like button here. this post is perfect

There really arent any residency rules anymore and everyone knows that. Its got to be frustrating for teams that actually build with members who actually live in that province

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03-12-21 01:18AM
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What is lost on a lot of people is that the Brier is the biggest curling event of the year. It gets the most viewers and makes the most money. The winner of the Brier is the national champion. This leads to the following logical conclusions:

1) TSN, CC and most logical fans want the best teams at the biggest event. Having Koe or Bottcher at home is good for no one. Better competition means better games means more interest means more money.

2) We are never going back to strict residency rules. These are real athletes who train hard. You cannot impose guidelines upon them where they are prohibited from forming the best teams possible. Doing so weakens the strength of Canada at international events. The days of four buddies forming a team to go to playdowns and try getting to the Brier are long gone.

3) Do we want all the provinces/territories represented? I’d say yes. The aspect of the Brier being a big Canadian celebration can’t be ignored. The fact will always be that half the field has no shot of winning. I think the current format toes that line very well. Everyone is represented but come Friday, half the teams advance.

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03-12-21 07:59AM
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The Waco Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by Hack Weight
What is lost on a lot of people is that the Brier is the biggest curling event of the year. It gets the most viewers and makes the most money. The winner of the Brier is the national champion. This leads to the following logical conclusions:

1) TSN, CC and most logical fans want the best teams at the biggest event. Having Koe or Bottcher at home is good for no one. Better competition means better games means more interest means more money.

2) We are never going back to strict residency rules. These are real athletes who train hard. You cannot impose guidelines upon them where they are prohibited from forming the best teams possible. Doing so weakens the strength of Canada at international events. The days of four buddies forming a team to go to playdowns and try getting to the Brier are long gone.

3) Do we want all the provinces/territories represented? I’d say yes. The aspect of the Brier being a big Canadian celebration can’t be ignored. The fact will always be that half the field has no shot of winning. I think the current format toes that line very well. Everyone is represented but come Friday, half the teams advance.



"Most logical fans want the best teams." Seems a tad presumptuous to think that fans from "insert any" province will cheer for a team made up partially/mainly with players who have zero ties to said province. Most fans of the Brier want to cheer for their own province as opposed to watching another super team play another super team, IMO.

No question these guys are committed athletes but that doesn't mean that you cannot find a plethora of committed athletes in your own province. If I had to choose between the Brier becoming just another Slam event vs. Canada becoming a marginally less competitive curling power at the international level (which is a very debatable point at best), I choose the latter without a doubt especially as it will be better for the sport overall. If Curling Canada wants to win Gold internationally, then put together a super team like some other countries do.

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03-12-21 11:56AM
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Can't you have strict residency rules, which gives you your 13 provinces and territories... and then your team Canada and your Northern Ontario... then let the teams that want to give it a go with their all star olympic qualifying squads in some sponsored televised tournament to get three wildcards, and boom, that's both. and you can keep your 18 team shindig you've got this year.

Or give a spot to the Junior and Senior Champion and make it a great tournament with the top 8 CTRS teams to get one single wild card spot.

I mean, you want to make a run at the Olympics, good for you! Good luck! It just makes it harder to win the Brier/Scotties.

I mean, Scott McDonald replacing Jamie Murphy to be team Nova Scotia is like Gushue opting out and having John Shuster skip team Canada.

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03-12-21 01:00PM
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I've said it before, if Gushue was playing Koe in a cashspiel final for 10 million dollars I may or may not be watching. But if Que is playing NS in a Brier round robin game where I know neither team is going to be around for the weekend then I am watching. And I was, it was great game with a million rocks in the 4 foot even though the team %s weren't that high.
The Brier and the Scotties are about provincial representation and rivalry. I think the current rules about either being born or living there with 1 import are just fine. In the Scotties it was still Ont vs MB in my mind even if there was only 1 person living in Ont on that team and 2 from MB living in Ont.
And I'm also fine with NWT, Nunavut and the Yukon having teams. They are part of Canada and deserve to be there more than any wild card team.
As for the argument that it weakens Canada's chances internationally, I don't buy it. You could allow every team in Canada into the Brier or Scotties and the winner will always be one of the top 6 or so pro teams so Canada will always be well represented.

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03-12-21 07:08PM
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I used to support the traditionalist view when it came to Brier/Scotties format but as I get older I find that all the strict provincial residency rules and regional representation is not important to me anymore. Gone are the days when the members of a team all curled out of the same club and had full time jobs besides chasing the Brier or Scotties dream. I would rather watch the remaining 8 teams in the championship pool play in this years Brier for all of the draws. I am also sure that TSN would not wish to cover a Scotties or Brier that had more middle of the road teams and less WC teams. Times change and even our views of curling on TV can. Also the mixed doubles format is awesome. Love the less time it takes and that the 2 members do not have to represent a region.

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03-13-21 12:23AM
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Some of you don't seem to realize that the question is not "What kind of tournament would you like to see". The question is about the Brier, specifically.
And the Brier and Scotties have a pre-defined format - one dating back several decades. That format is that it is the national championship, pitting players from each province and territory against each other, with each province and territory represented and permitted to play. (Somehow along the way, Ontario was allowed to enter 2 teams - but that ship has sailed, and we're not debating that in this thread, anyway.)

So... the question is essentially 'Should the Brier (and Scotties) format follow its own rules, or should the format of the Brier and Scotties be significantly changed officially?'
Right now, Curling Canada is trying to have it both ways - they're trying to have their cake and eat it, too. Right now, the Brier and Scotties format is officially unchanged IN THEORY - they are still the national championships. But IN PRACTICE, they have been changed significantly, resulting in players from one province representing a completely different province - which goes against the principle of the official and long standing format.
The theory should, of course, match the practice - and vice-versa. But it doesn't right now.

Think of it this way... In the Olympics, or in any other international sporting event, where the format is to have nations compete against each other... I think most of you would find it absurd if Team Italy had one or more participants (in any sport) on their team who is Irish... or Belgian... or Canadian, with no ties or relation to Italy - and these 'imports' are secured because they are deemed more talented than any true Italian who might have filled those spots. Once this occurs, the format obviously ceases to be one of nations competing against each other.

Well, that's what's currently happening with the Brier and Scotties - they are clearly and obviously NO LONGER the national championships they claim to be, pitting players from the provinces and territories against each other. And that's sad.
If all players on the Ontario team, for example, are not from, or do not at least live in, Ontario, then the Ontario team is obviously not what it claims to be - it is not an Ontario team. It is therefore fraudulent, based on the official format of the Brier/Scotties, which pits teams from each province and territory, with players from each province/territory, against each other.

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Last edited by On The Nose on 03-13-21 at 12:43AM

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03-14-21 09:03AM
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The Waco Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
Some of you don't seem to realize that the question is not "What kind of tournament would you like to see". The question is about the Brier, specifically.
And the Brier and Scotties have a pre-defined format - one dating back several decades. That format is that it is the national championship, pitting players from each province and territory against each other, with each province and territory represented and permitted to play. (Somehow along the way, Ontario was allowed to enter 2 teams - but that ship has sailed, and we're not debating that in this thread, anyway.)

So... the question is essentially 'Should the Brier (and Scotties) format follow its own rules, or should the format of the Brier and Scotties be significantly changed officially?'
Right now, Curling Canada is trying to have it both ways - they're trying to have their cake and eat it, too. Right now, the Brier and Scotties format is officially unchanged IN THEORY - they are still the national championships. But IN PRACTICE, they have been changed significantly, resulting in players from one province representing a completely different province - which goes against the principle of the official and long standing format.
The theory should, of course, match the practice - and vice-versa. But it doesn't right now.

Think of it this way... In the Olympics, or in any other international sporting event, where the format is to have nations compete against each other... I think most of you would find it absurd if Team Italy had one or more participants (in any sport) on their team who is Irish... or Belgian... or Canadian, with no ties or relation to Italy - and these 'imports' are secured because they are deemed more talented than any true Italian who might have filled those spots. Once this occurs, the format obviously ceases to be one of nations competing against each other.

Well, that's what's currently happening with the Brier and Scotties - they are clearly and obviously NO LONGER the national championships they claim to be, pitting players from the provinces and territories against each other. And that's sad.
If all players on the Ontario team, for example, are not from, or do not at least live in, Ontario, then the Ontario team is obviously not what it claims to be - it is not an Ontario team. It is therefore fraudulent, based on the official format of the Brier/Scotties, which pits teams from each province and territory, with players from each province/territory, against each other.



This pretty much nails it. It is pretty much a black and white issue: dollars/tv ratings vs. a true national championship. The former is a slippery slope with no distinct stop sign in comprising the latter.

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03-14-21 09:31AM
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
Some of you don't seem to realize that the question is not "What kind of tournament would you like to see".

I disagree. That's the exact question that is indeed important and relevant here.

Why would anyone advocate for a tournament they don't want to see over one that they do?

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03-14-21 10:50AM
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quote:
Originally posted by EPMD

I disagree. That's the exact question that is indeed important and relevant here.

Why would anyone advocate for a tournament they don't want to see over one that they do?



Exactly. Also there are no "rules" that cannot be modified over the years.

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03-14-21 12:11PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prairie guy


Exactly. Also there are no "rules" that cannot be modified over the years.



How have the modification of the rules kept the nature of the event, a national championship, intact when teams are not truly representative of their provinces?

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03-14-21 01:29PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Waco Kid


How have the modification of the rules kept the nature of the event, a national championship, intact when teams are not truly representative of their provinces?



For me a national championship does not have to keep the residency rules "intact" to make it a true championship. Have a format that gets most of the best teams at our national championship and to me that is better than the old residency rules. I think they are trying to keep the sprit of the Brier alive while allowing modifications that represent the present times.

So I respect anyone's opinion on this matter and I believe the discussion on a public forum is just fine. My views are probably not going to change and neither is anyone who disagrees with me. All good.

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03-15-21 12:23AM
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quote:
Originally posted by EPMD

I disagree. That's the exact question that is indeed important and relevant here.

Why would anyone advocate for a tournament they don't want to see over one that they do?


No - the question is not 'What kind of tournament would you like to see', because we're not starting with a blank slate. If we were starting from a blank slate, then, fine, all suggestions in any form can be made.
But we're talking about a format which is already established, and which has been so for decades. Therefore, there are limits and restrictions to what can be done.
And so, the question is 'Should the Brier (and Scotties) format follow its own rules, or should the format of the Scotties and Brier be significantly changed officially?'

Right now, it's ridiculous - because it so obviously IS NOT WHAT IT CLAIMS TO BE.
It claims to be a national championship which pits players from each province and territory against each other. But as soon as you allow 'imports' (that is, players from one province/territory playing for a completely different province/territory) as soon as this is permitted, then it clearly is no longer what it claims to be. That cannot be more obvious.
And so, again - the question, rephrased, is 'Do we change the official rules/format to match what is currently occurring... or do we make the practice/action match the rules/format?'
I vote very strongly for the latter.

And I also don't believe that eliminating the 'import' will have any significant effect on TV ratings or on the popularity of curling... because there will still be great, very high quality teams with mostly the same players we're seeing today - they would just be shuffled around a little bit.

__________________
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03-17-21 02:54PM
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The format of this year's Scotties and Brier was welcome by me as it permitted more viewable and interesting games during the many days of pool play - there was always at least one good game to watch. That is what I want to see on TV but I also want to see a path for growth of the sport in Canada.

Just like we no longer have black & white TVs, cassette tapes, landlines, etc. - times change! I don't see why the national championships MUST use teams that represent a specific province. That format is simply outdated for an Olympic sport with world championships every year. Take figure skating for example - do our national championships there require one representative from every province? Or are they competing to find the best skater to send to worlds? You know the answer...

I personally like the idea of an amateur national championship where the top 8 CTRS teams are ineligible to play and all entrants are 100% provincial teams - no imports, no birthright (that is typically the case for most Tier 2 teams anyway and it encourages team practice and development). That amateur event then determines a champion that (and possibly the second place team as well) gets a birth into the National Championships Brier and Scotties along with the top 8 CTRS teams and perhaps the Junior champs as well. Such a format will restore active participation in playdowns as the Tier 2 teams now have a shot at actually winning their province and getting to that national. It provides a path to get there that is lost today in all the powerhouse provinces where there are the most curling teams. That format also allows a full RR, no pools. With 10 teams, the event can also be shortened.

If the format of the Brier and Scotties is so great, why then do we use a completely different process to determine the Olympic curling teams? Isn't the objective the same - send the best team to a World event, either every year or every 4 years? Go to any Roar event and they are far more entertaining than the Brier or a Scotties, IMHO.

Curling has moved on and that was caused by (a) more of a world adoption of the sport thanks to the Olympics and (b) the development of the core 6-8 Elite teams that have access to the Slams. Let's modify how we determine our national curling champions instead of using the same format used when Charles Lindbergh crossed the Atlantic in 1927!

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03-17-21 09:45PM
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you know what? . i personally like the way things were before, i liked it when teams representing a province were actually from that province. however, i also know there is no going back and i've made peace with that

what i will say is stop pretending there are any kind of rules or guidelines here. stop altering them to cater to top teams. just admit that top teams can do whatever the **** they want and be done with it. i mean its not a good look when rule changes are nicknamed after the players the rule was altered for

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03-18-21 11:50AM
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I guess I just have to be thankful it hasn't gotten to the mixed doubles or Canadian junior level of interference from curling Canada yet but, who knows. Maybe thats where we're heading

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Team Canada off to Strong Start at Men's Worlds

Team Canada off to Strong Start at Men's Worlds

Brendan Bottcher (photo: Curling Canada) is off to a strong start at their first World Men's Curling Championship.

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