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| 09-21-22 02:02AM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
Curling Canada's 2022-2026 "burned rock" rule
From https://www.curling.ca/files/2022/08/rules-summary.pdf
quote:
Rule: 9. Touched Moving Stones
(4) Inside the hog line at the playing end: (a) If a moving stone is touched, or is caused to be touched, by the team to which it belongs, or by its equipment, all stones are allowed to come to rest, after which the touched stone must be removed from play and all stones that were displaced after the infraction are placed to their original positions, unless the non-offending team considers it an advantage to:
(i) Leave all stones where they came to rest, or;
(ii) Place all stones where it reasonably considers the stones would have come to rest had the moving stone not been touched.
Rationale: The infraction by the delivering team is to be clear and definitive. The only time the non-offending team is to be involved is if there is advantage to the non-offending team to use one of the two options available to them.
Thoughts?
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| 09-21-22 07:28PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Same as before
What was a possible outcome after a burned rock before is still possible now, and what is possible now was also possible then, so yes, in a sense the new rule is same as before.
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| 09-22-22 01:18AM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
Please share responses from notable figures in curling, players, coaches, commentators, etc.
These are the ones I've seen so far.
Rick Lang
https://twitter.com/coachlang53/sta...738128661860353
"Brilliant adjustment to the rules...long overdue!!!"
Game of Stones Podcast
https://twitter.com/GameofStonesPod...613753220501504
"Really like this wording - hopefully limits number of awkward interactions #curling #twitterspiel"
I'm hoping to hear more from others, especially from international curlers not subject to Curling Canada rules.
Last edited by curlingclips on 09-22-22 at 01:26AM
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| 09-22-22 10:23PM |
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southerncurler
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 234 |
I like the new wording
“unless the non-offending team considers it an advantage to” makes it clear what the spirit of the rule is
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| 09-23-22 12:45AM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by southerncurler
makes it clear what the spirit of the rule is
Yep. With elite honorable players, probably 90% of burned rocks are supposed to be removed from play. Ignoring the infraction and leaving the stones be after a burned rock is supposed to be the minority case when doing so is more advantageous for the non-offending team.
People somehow got that reversed and argued in the past that minor inconsequential burns are supposed to be forgiven, which is non-sense. They're supposed to be punished. All burned rocks are supposed to be punished in whichever way is most advantageous to the non-offending team.
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| 09-24-22 11:57AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
No, but again you don't play the game. 99% of the time a minor touch on a stone is left as is in games.
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| 09-24-22 06:47PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
No, but again you don't play the game. 99% of the time a minor touch on a stone is left as is in games.
Curling Canada literally changed the rules of the game and spelled out the words because of people like you, and you still won't admit that you're wrong?
Forget the past and let bygones be bygones, but it's important to put ourselves in the right side going forward. Forget all the controversies of the past, all the arguments on the internet, all the games that could've been won that was lost, etc. Just play the game from this day forward according to the very clearly spelled out rules.
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| 09-24-22 09:06PM |
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Prawnpuller
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2013
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 97 |
The non offending team still has the option to apply the rule or to leave things as is.
What part of that don't you understand?....Are we all going to subjected to another season of idiot posts like yours?
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| 09-24-22 09:30PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by Prawnpuller
The non offending team still has the option to apply the rule or to leave things as is.
As the rule clearly says, if it's more advantageous for the non-offending team to leave things as is, then that's the time for them to get involved and use that option.
Most of the time, it's NOT advantageous for the non-offending team to leave things as is, so the rule clearly says that the non-offending team does NOT have to get involved and the burned rock should be removed from play.
In other words, leaving things as is, is as a way of punishment, not forgiveness. As the rationale addendum clearly spelled out, touching a rock is clearly and definitely an infraction, and infractions are to be punished, not forgiven.
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| 09-24-22 10:42PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
Here's another way to look at this.
This quote is excerpted from the rules. I have not changed a single word. I've simply removed some portions while keeping others to emphasize the spirit of the rule.
"If a moving stone is touched, [...] the touched stone must be removed from play [...], unless the non-offending team considers it an advantage to [..] leave all stones where they came to rest".
If you believe that my excerpt changed the spirit of the rule, then please point out how. Otherwise, that excerpt says everything that needs to be said on this topic.
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| 09-25-22 12:34AM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
You can also consider the context of these words, and ponder on why Curling Canada made this change.
Whatever position you had on this topic before this change, does this new wording attack or defend your position?
If it attacks your previous position, then you should consider switching position from this day henceforth, if you respect the authority of Curling Canada to govern the rules of curling in Canada.
None of this has anything to do with me not being a player or me allegedly being an idiot.
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| 09-25-22 02:22PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Previously, inside the hogline, you let the rocks come to rest. Then the options were, leave it the way it is, put the rocks back the way they were and remove the thrown rock or put the rocks where the reasonably would have ended up. This was up to the non offending team. Now you can remove the rock and replace all rocks to their original position, leave everything as it is or put the rocks where they reasonably would have ended up.
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| 09-25-22 04:14PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Previously, inside the hogline, you let the rocks come to rest. Then the options were, leave it the way it is, put the rocks back the way they were and remove the thrown rock or put the rocks where the reasonably would have ended up. This was up to the non offending team. Now you can remove the rock and replace all rocks to their original position, leave everything as it is or put the rocks where they reasonably would have ended up.
Previously the non-offending team had 3 options. Now the non-offending team only has 2 options.
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| 09-25-22 04:37PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
The non offending team has three options. They can let the rock be removed and all rocks replaced to their original position, they can let the result of the shot stay as it is or they can put the rocks where they think they would have reasonably ended up. It all depends on what the non offending team chooses.
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| 09-25-22 04:55PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
The non offending team has three options.
Incorrect. The rationale addendum clearly spells out that "the only time the non-offending team is to be involved is if there is advantage to the non-offending team to use one of the two options available to them".
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| 09-25-22 05:00PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
No, it''s the non-offending teams choice on every count. Ninety-nine percent of the time the non offending team will say leave it as it is, it is fine. Or they will tap the rock over a few inches and that's satisfactory to them. Very seldom will a team remove a rock. The default position will always be leave it as it is.
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| 09-25-22 05:11PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
The default position will always be leave it as it is.
Curling Canada disagrees and that's why they changed the rule, to eradicate that position.
If you disagree with the 2022-2026 Curling Canada rule and reject the rationale for this change, then I suggest you contact them and demand that they undo the change and go back to the way things were.
This has nothing to do with me personally, but if it makes you happy for whatever reason, I will say that if you successfully managed to make Curling Canada revert to the old rule, I will come here and admit that I was wrong and I would leave this forum.
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| 09-25-22 05:25PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Tell me how the rule differs from the old rule. The decision is always the non offending teams and the options are exactly the same as the previous rulebook. The wording has changed but the rule hasn't. Nothing happens until the non offending team makes a decision.
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| 09-25-22 05:40PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Tell me how the rule differs from the old rule.
I will use numbers to illustrate the difference.
Suppose the non-offending team always defer to the curling gods whenever a rock is burned. The way it does that is by flipping a fair coin when there's a 2-junction decision, and by flipping a fair 3-sided die when there's a 3-junction decision.
Under the old rule, after a burned rock, the non-offending team flips a fair 3-sided die and rocks would be left as is 33% of the time.
Under the new rule, the non-offending team first flips a coin to decide if it's advantageous to override the mandatory punishment. 50% of the time, the answer would be yes, and the non-offending team would flip a coin the second time to decide which of the 2 options to choose. Combining the 2 coin flips, rocks would be left as is 25% of the time.
In other words, with a perfectly neutral non-offending team that always defer to the curling gods, the number of times rocks would be left as is after a burned rock is reduced.
Put another way, a burned rock would be removed from play now 50% of the time, up from 33%.
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| 09-25-22 05:49PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
That makes absolutely no sense, there is no coin flip, no odds, no probabilities involved. The non offending team decides if the rock stays, goes or gets shifted. You didn't answer my question on how the new rule is different than the old rule.
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| 09-25-22 06:28PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
You didn't answer my question on how the new rule is different than the old rule.
If you honestly believe that the new rule is exactly the same as the old rule and the change has no effect, then that's fine with me. Don't contact Curling Canada demanding that they undo the change.
If you're ever the non-offending team of a burned rock, do decide however you wish, as you did before.
If you're ever the offending team of a burned rock, do accept whatever its outcome may be within the rules, as you did before.
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| 09-25-22 06:40PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
You still have not explained how there is a difference. Also, show me video of teams flipping a coin to decide what they are going to do. I'm giving you a golden opportunity here to enlighten everyone.
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| 09-25-22 06:48PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
I'm giving you a golden opportunity here to enlighten everyone.
I respectfully decline the opportunity. This isn't about me.
I am still looking for comments from other curlers/coaches/commentators, and I will share those in this thread when I find them.
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| 09-25-22 06:54PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
That is your perogative, unfortunate as it is, as it hurts your argument. The thing is curlers, coaches and commentators will say the same thing. I know why they reworded the rule but that is for a different discussion.
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