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This kind of got started on the Brier thread but let's give it its own even though apparently we are not allowed to compare curlers from different eras.
Edin is in obviously.
I'd still rank the Howard/Howard/Middaugh/(Corner at lead?) as the best. One year they lost like 9 games all year.
Martin was at the top for 20 years, had some trouble finishing but couple Olympic medals and a ton on cashspiel success puts him in the conversation.
The Richardsons
Gushue

Norberg joins Edin as givens. 3 worlds, 2 oly gold.
Paetz is the best shooter I've seen.
Schmirler.
JJones. Like Martin had some trouble finishing at worlds but 2 olys and cashspiel success
Dordi.
5 years ago I would have bet the farm that Homan would top this list but it just hasn't happenned. A lot of close calls and heartbreak has delayed her rise but I wouldn't count her out yet.
Einarson can also stake her claim if she can add a worlds, continue her Scotties run and top it off with an Oly medal.

Last edited by hogged again on 03-14-23 at 01:23PM

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Eve Muirhead is youngest skip to win a World Championship, youngest skip to win a Grand Slam, and youngest skip to win an Olympic medal, last time I checked. If that record has been broken since, please do correct me.

She retired as reigning World & Olympic champion in 2 different disciplines.

Depending on what it means to be a curler, this 2 disciplines thing could be a big deal. One could argue that Oskar Eriksson's resume is better than Niklas Edin's because of the Mixed Doubles accomplishments.

Last edited by curlingclips on 03-14-23 at 02:36PM

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Mixed doubles is tricky because they didn't all compete in mixed doubles and some didn't even have the opportunity . Think you have to look at events that they all competed in.

Individually on the men's side I believe Wayne Middaugh to e the best their ever was . Looking at the team that's really hard but I'd tip my pick to the Kevin Martin rink that won the Olympics and worlds with Morris, Kennedy and Hebert.

For the women it's tempting to go with paetz . She's won worlds 5 times but no euros and no Olympic medals of any kind rule her out for me. Individually I go with schmirler . Best team I go with the Norberg rink that won double Olympic gold and worlds in 2005/2006

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quote:

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Originally posted by misty1
some didn't even have the opportunity

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quote:

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Originally posted by curlingclips


To say that curlers between these two eras are directly comparable would actually be an insult to curling as an Olympic sport.

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Mike Harris tweet:
https://twitter.com/mikeharriscurls...669696933072898

"To quote Paul Savage... "The free guard zone extended many curling careers... and shortened others...” He wasn’t wrong!! "

At the very least we should acknowledge that players from pre- and post-FGZ eras aren't directly comparable.

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Here is my 2 cents
A couple of things that are different then and now
THEN
Ice conditions were no where near what it is today and that is no disrespect to the ice makers back then.Those guys had a pebble can and a hand scraper lol..
NOW
Todays ice makers have all the latest technologies including mobilized ice scrapers,nippers,computers ,ice sensors and 2 or 3 fellow ice technicians to help out making ice conditions about as good as possible.

Another difference is how we learned to play this game.
THEN
Most of us learned to play by trying to imitate your hero at the time or getting a few pointers from your dad or friend/teammates..you got better by playing in ALL the local bonspiels and practised on sometimes (heaven forbid) natural ice. Sometimes the rocks would “fall”.two feet against the turn lol. ( yep I’m a prairie learned to curl guy)
NOW
The young generation nowadays are taught how to slide,deliver,turns,sweeping and strategy by fully qualified coaches. Notice how teams like say Jennifer Jones young uns all look like clones in there delivery. Teams nowadays get better coaching , practising on better ice, elite tour spiels and events and better players to add to your team from different provinces etc.Hell some even have a shrink to calm there nerves.
Sorry for rambling here but these differences make it difficult for me anyway to compare say teams like the Richardsons to Gushue for example.
For the record my vote goes to Gushue and Jen Jones for GOAT. I’m sticking with Canadiens only as I am biased 😁

Two things can happen..One is bad

Last edited by Prawnpuller on 03-14-23 at 11:09PM

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The GOAT skip or the GOAT curler?

I like the Wayne Middaugh mention, guy has won briers and worlds at three different positions.

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quote:

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Originally posted by curlingclips

At the very least we should acknowledge that players from pre- and post-FGZ eras aren't directly comparable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by hogged again
You really like moving the target don't ya?

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What makes a GOAT? If it's raw achievement then for Canadians I think Martin and Gushue are the clear top two for skips. They have two Olympics each, similar Slam numbers, similar Worlds results (Gushue of course being denied one chance). Gushue has the Brier edge, so I give him an edge overall. He also has the World junior gold. I see no issue comparing them.

Likewise, Gushue's Brier run is more impressive than any other. Ferbey's is a very close second, with strong world results backing them.

The easier conversation is greatest third of all time. It's Mark Nichols, the rest can go home. And Gushue/Nichols are the greatest skip/third pair of all time.

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I think Team Gushue deserves an edge for revolutionizing sweeping as part of their legacy. I don't know if this is 100% accurate, but I believe the breakthrough innovation of broomgate (directional sweeping with one sweeper at a time) is usually credited to Team Gushue more than any other team.

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First of all, it's a team sport, 4 players, each teammate having a direct outcome of the success of the other's shots.
Lots of GOAT teams. By definition, if they were beating up on the competition for many years, they enter the conversation.

It's impossible to narrow it down to a single "greatest of all time" team. Better to have a Greatest of all Time Mount Rushmore of teams. And my mountain has room for 5 teams.

I'll put the Richardsons, The Howard Team(with Middaugh and Corner), The Ferbey Four, Kevin Martin's team circa 2010, and Gushue.

We'll need a flip side for the women.

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quote:

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Originally posted by oliviertoisel

The easier conversation is greatest third of all time. It's Mark Nichols, the rest can go home. And Gushue/Nichols are the greatest skip/third pair of all time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by hogged again


I'm a huge Nichols fan but put him a close second to Oscar E.

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quote:

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Originally posted by myhouse911

Same. While Gushue/Nichols lead the head to head by a good margin, Edin/Eriksson have a 6-3 advantage at major international competitions (Worlds/Olympics). That trumps the tour events in my books.

If I’m betting on a back-end to win me a game it’s Edin/Eriksson, very closely followed by Gushue/Nichols

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Exactly this. It should be no surprise that when you stack up the top 20 men's teams year in, year out, half of them are Canadian. I don't recall ever, anyone saying Sweden has half of the top men's teams in the world, or Scotland has half of the best men's curling teams (or Italy or -insert country here-).
So when it comes down to the inevitable world curling event final where it's often Canada vs other in a one game, winner take all, the "other" will sometimes win.
Having said that, Edin/Erikson are very good.

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I think it is inevitable Eriksson will be in competition for the GOAT versus Edin by time both are retied because he will skip for 5+ years after Edin (younger and healthier) and likely win 1+ worlds or Olympics on his own. Otherwise their resumes are almost the same. Edin might have a decade or more left but with his health it's hard to say.

But I think Nichols is the more obvious GOAT third because Nichols is, (almost always) was and always will be a true third. Eriksson is a skip and a third, though he has often thrown third. In a country with more depth it is questionable he would ever have paired with Edin. But in Sweden, with 5-8 elite players only, their pairing was inevitable. The Nichols/Gushue pairing was also somewhat inevitable due to geography but spending literally decades together is basically unprecedented. Except for when Nichols moved away the two have played virtually their entire careers together. I can't think of anything comparable, including Eriksson.

For Edin the black mark is always the tour. His performance there is mediocre to the extreme. I'm sure he'd gladly take his worlds and olympics but it is the one "mark" on what I think is obviously the GOAT resume.

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People talk about this forum dying, but these are the sort of debates it needs. Sometimes this place is too collegial.

The different eras do complicate comparisons. It's a young rapidly evolving sport as a profession and TV event.

My main contention is that Gushue is probably the favorite in terms of best Canadian skip, best skip/3rd duo. 5 briers, an olympic gold medal, world championship win, should speak for itself. Too many wave that away claiming "different eras".

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quote:

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Originally posted by oliviertoisel
For Edin the black mark is always the tour [...] it is the one "mark" on what I think is obviously the GOAT resume.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Deliverer


G/N do not lead E/E head to head by just a 'good margin'. It's a margin that E/E will probably never be able to overcome. Additionally, their chances of overcoming the 14-4 margin currently held by G/N in Grand Slam events are somewhere between slim and none, and slim has already left the building!

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Back to GOAT. Ernie Richardson was only 32 when he won his fourth Brier. Matt Baldwin wasn't very old either. If they had played when curling could get you a living they could have won many more possibly.

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For the CAN vs NOR round robin game at 2023 World Women's, Sander Rølvåg was commentating with Joanne Courtney.

This was interesting because Canada coach is Reid Carruthers, who won World Mixed Doubles silver with Courtney. For Norway, fourth Kristin Skaslien is 2x Olympic medalist in mixed doubles, although it's lead Martine Rønning that will represent Norway at 2023 World Mixed Doubles.

They discussed that this is becoming the norm for curlers to play and medal in both, and expects to see even more examples in 2026 (Stefania Constantini being an obvious one).

This is making me more convinced that Niklas Edin should definitely try to medal in mixed doubles for Sweden before he retires.

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