Forums Menu

User: 
Pass:  

CurlingZone : Powered by vBulletin>
<smallfont><b><a href=CurlingZone > Chat Forums > General Curling Chat > Rock Talk > In 4 rock FGZ, would you rather go down 3 with hammer or down 2 without?

Disclaimer: CurlingZone does not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any Content posted on any Forums area and you acknowledge that any reliance upon such Content shall be at your sole risk. Any Content placed on any Forums area by users and anonymous posters are the views of the user posting the statement, and do not represent the views of CurlingZone or our partners, advertisers or sponsors. By posting anonymously, you are allowing your IP address to be displayed for identification purposes. CurlingZone reserves the right to remove any post at its discretion without warning or explanation.
  Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread   Post A Reply
01-04-21 05:03PM
curlingclips is offline Click Here to See the Profile for curlingclips Find more posts by curlingclips Add curlingclips to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
curlingclips
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 248

In 4 rock FGZ, would you rather go down 3 with hammer or down 2 without?

I just started watching 2018 Olympics, and I saw Koe vs Edin game. In the 9th, with hammer, facing an empty house, Koe wanted to draw for 1 instead of just throwing through to blank the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrDMWUGMia0

Now, his draw came up way light and ended up being a center guard, so he ended up blanking instead, but was his original call justified in the first place?

The team was all behind him, no one questioned the merit of the draw for 1. Is there an explanation for this? Was this based on precedence from previous games? Has this been tried before?

The most plausible explanation I've been given is that in the 4 rock FGZ, the team without hammer gets to throw a couple of corner guards, while the team with hammer only gets one corner guard before peeling can begin. So perhaps the rationale for going down 2 without hammer was to use the 2 corner guards to lie 3, and just pray for the best.

Obviously you'd never do this in 5 rock FGZ era, because the team with hammer does get a chance to use 2 corner guards now.

Thoughts? What did the CBC commentators say at the time? Were there any previous discussions about this particular shot, or this strategy in general?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-06-21 05:12PM
biterbar is offline Click Here to See the Profile for biterbar Click here to Send biterbar a Private Message Find more posts by biterbar Add biterbar to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
biterbar
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 638

Down three is a death sentence. Two without the hammer isn't much better, but it is better.

__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-06-21 05:54PM
decade is offline Click Here to See the Profile for decade Click here to Send decade a Private Message Find more posts by decade Add decade to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
decade
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Jan 2011
Location:
Posts: 1729

Down 3? No team deserves to win a game after digging themselves into such a hole.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-06-21 06:56PM
curlingclips is offline Click Here to See the Profile for curlingclips Find more posts by curlingclips Add curlingclips to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
curlingclips
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 248

quote:
Originally posted by decade
Down 3? No team deserves to win a game after digging themselves into such a hole.


Jennifer Jones was down 3 vs Moe Meguro (JPN) at 2008 WWCC semifinal. Scored 2, steal 10th, steal 11th, and won the final.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nttF3BDWKds

Are you saying that she didn't deserve a world championship in 2008?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-06-21 07:26PM
biterbar is offline Click Here to See the Profile for biterbar Click here to Send biterbar a Private Message Find more posts by biterbar Add biterbar to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
biterbar
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 638

That is not down three with one end to go. Apples and oranges.

__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-06-21 08:44PM
curlingclips is offline Click Here to See the Profile for curlingclips Find more posts by curlingclips Add curlingclips to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
curlingclips
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 248

I'm a fan of mixed doubles, where crazy things have happened, i.e. score 3 and steal extra, or score 4 and win immediately (see: 2017 WMDCC final).

But you're right, I don't think I've seen a traditional game yet where a team down 3 last end wins.

However, that's why I'm interested to learn more about the down 2 without hammer situation. I hadn't thought about it until recently that in 4 rock FGZ era, you basically have a straightforward plan to lie 3 against an opposition that is in full on peel mode.

If anyone knows any famous game where this was tried, even unsuccessfully, I'd love to watch it.

Last edited by curlingclips on 01-06-21 at 08:50PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-07-21 09:28AM
decade is offline Click Here to See the Profile for decade Click here to Send decade a Private Message Find more posts by decade Add decade to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
decade
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Jan 2011
Location:
Posts: 1729

quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips


Jennifer Jones was down 3 vs Moe Meguro (JPN) at 2008 WWCC semifinal. Scored 2, steal 10th, steal 11th, and won the final.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nttF3BDWKds

Are you saying that she didn't deserve a world championship in 2008?



Not the same scenario that you described in the first post.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-07-21 02:01PM
hogged again is offline Click Here to See the Profile for hogged again Find more posts by hogged again Add hogged again to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
hogged again
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Mar 2019
Location:
Posts: 127

quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

But you're right, I don't think I've seen a traditional game yet where a team down 3 last end wins.




Extremely rare as you must score 4 which doesn't happen much or score 3 and steal which is also tough.
Closest is Dacey who scored 3 in 10th to beat Ferbey in Brier final.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-07-21 03:13PM
SmokeyJoe is offline Click Here to See the Profile for SmokeyJoe Find more posts by SmokeyJoe Add SmokeyJoe to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
SmokeyJoe
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 127

2001 Olympic Trials, Morris vs Howard, Morris was 3 up going into the 10th end. Howard scores 4 in the 10th for the win.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-08-21 03:19AM
curlingclips is offline Click Here to See the Profile for curlingclips Find more posts by curlingclips Add curlingclips to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
curlingclips
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 248

Back to the dilemma: does anyone remember any game where someone showed preference for going down 2 without hammer as opposed to going down 3 with? Particularly in the 4 rock FGZ era where the team without hammer has 2 free guards as opposed to only 1 free guard for the team with hammer?

For example, here's the situation from the flip side, where Ulsrud (NOR) showed preference for being up 3 without hammer as opposed to up 2 with hammer vs Stjerne (DEN).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck47dLrvSHU

DEN had just stolen 2 points in previous end when Ulsrud drew went heavy.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-08-21 08:39PM
Manitoba Legend is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Manitoba Legend Click here to Send Manitoba Legend a Private Message Find more posts by Manitoba Legend Add Manitoba Legend to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

 

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 12375

quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips


Jennifer Jones was down 3 vs Moe Meguro (JPN) at 2008 WWCC semifinal. Scored 2, steal 10th, steal 11th, and won the final.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nttF3BDWKds

Are you saying that she didn't deserve a world championship in 2008?



Jen was able to overcome a 3 pt lead because the team she played was inexperienced and prolly ran Jen up because Jen tended to blow herself up in world playoffs.

So Jen buckled up, forced her team to make all the shots and with some messy play by Maguro, vola, Jen saved her scalp.

She did the same thing for her first Scotties title vs. Jen Hanna. 3 down coming home, a couple little faux-ups by Hanna's front end and JJ pulls off that killer in-off for 5 - and the title. WOW!

Jen prolly doesn't get the job done if she was down to a monster like Homan - or even Einarson.

Hanna was having the game of her life - she actually could have snuffed out JJ earlier but gassed the odd shot. Jones hung in and was able to pull it off . . . ! ! !

__________________
I'm one of the good guys now!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

All times are GMT. The time now is . Post New Thread   Post A Reply
  Last Thread   Next Thread
Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to thisThread

Forum Jump:
Rate This Thread:

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 

Recent News

Recent
Mouat Wins December Superspiel

Mouat Wins December Superspiel

Bruce Mouat led his team to yet another title at British Curling’s December Superspiel today and in doing so completed a perfect calendar year in domestic events.

Curling Photos

Recent

Curling Blogs

Facebook Feed

Twitter Feed

To top ↑