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10-05-22 04:37PM
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Oct 2019
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quote:
Originally posted by decade
From CC Rule book for General Play

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with a quote from Curling Canada's rules. I acknowledge that different sanctioning bodies have different rules, sometimes contradicting WCF's. Canada famously used 3-rock FGZ rule when WCF used 4-rock. As a more recent example, last year WCF used NTZ for World Men's and Women's, which Canada did not for Brier/Scotties.

My main point is that WCF can and does write into its rule book things that may not be enforced by 90% of curling clubs on earth, such as thinking time clock. Thus, the suggestion that many curling clubs do NOT have bumpers installed should NOT on its own preclude WCF from writing its rule book to include bumpers.

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10-05-22 06:13PM
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hogged again
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Mar 2019
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

Those are not natural.

The whole point about the bumper proposal is that it's perfectly natural for curling as seen already at Olympics and World championship level.

Let the rocks go wherever they may, leave the rocks be wherever they stop. It's not such a crazy idea, so Gushue scores 3 vs Koe fair and square.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/curling/gu...l-bumper-touch/

Another example from way back, 2005 Canadian Olympic Trial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBNdxxYrxXM&t=2h51m21s

What would've happened if Jamie Korab/Russ Howard couldn't interfere and they must let the rock bounce off the bumper and go wherever it goes? Would it bump the red rock in or or out of the rings? I guess we'll never know, but what an intriguing possibility either way!

This is what the solid bumper proposal means at this level:
* We're NOT adding things onto the playing surface that isn't already there.
* We're NOT adding human interference. To the opposite, in fact we're SUBTRACTING human interference.
* We ARE relying more on the natural laws of physics instead of human interference, which makes perfect sense for the sport of curling.

So, no, please don't retort against this proposal by suggesting hanging drapes or freezing tires into the ice, neither of which satisfy the above key principles.



You want to fundamentally change the gme and make it a luckfest and tou talk about "key priciples" "natural laws of physics...makes perfect sense for the sport of curling", etc etc and you know the idea is completey ludicrous. You make these posts just to get reaction and parse it and parse it and bring in made up rules and principles. Tires frozen in the ice are the same thing as allowing caroms off the boards, both are a complete joke.
Don't respond with another long pedantic post, I am done with your rabbit holes and as soon as I hit post I'm going to find out how to mute a user here.

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10-05-22 06:18PM
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hogged again
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Can anyone help me out? I try to add a user to the ignore list but after I hit update it says it worked but doesn't, when I go back in there are no names on the list and the posts are still visible.

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10-05-22 08:40PM
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guido
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quote:
Originally posted by hogged again
Can anyone help me out? I try to add a user to the ignore list but after I hit update it says it worked but doesn't, when I go back in there are no names on the list and the posts are still visible.


I have this idiot on my ignore list.
You have to be logged on for it to work.
When I open the page I am not logged on, so I see his posts.
I sign in and his posts disappear.

__________________
It’s me!

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10-05-22 10:09PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker

 

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quote:
Originally posted by hogged again


You want to fundamentally change the gme and make it a luckfest and tou talk about "key priciples" "natural laws of physics...makes perfect sense for the sport of curling", etc etc and you know the idea is completey ludicrous. You make these posts just to get reaction and parse it and parse it and bring in made up rules and principles. Tires frozen in the ice are the same thing as allowing caroms off the boards, both are a complete joke.
Don't respond with another long pedantic post, I am done with your rabbit holes and as soon as I hit post I'm going to find out how to mute a user here.





#blueintheface

#gettingpaidtostiritup

#pita

#nothingbettertodo

#ignoreall

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10-05-22 11:51PM
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curlingclips
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Going back on the topic of John Cullen's newsletter, Game of Stones podcast was very receptive of the idea.

https://www.gameofstonespod.com/epi...ntages-inflated (at 12m27s)

"One thing that does come up in the Cullen piece again, and we know Gunnlaugson is a big fan of this, is the half point idea, where the team that wins the draw to the button at the start of the game, they get to decide whether they start with half of a point, or the hammer, and therefore a tie is impossible! [...] I kind of like it, it's interesting, something different. [...] Right now, if you have the hammer in the first end, you win at a very disproportionate rate. [This] creates a more equal place to start the game from."

Last edited by curlingclips on 10-06-22 at 04:10AM

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10-06-22 10:13AM
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oliviertoisel
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Registered: Feb 2021
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Oh boy. Another year another head banger. I'll wade in with some quick shots. On the other point of scoring, I have three things to say:

1. I've already argued against this at length but one key point keeps getting ignored by everyone: this is a solution for the wrong problem. There are two separate problems: (1) hammer advantage in the game and (2) hammer advantage in the extra end. These are not the same thing. The team with hammer in the first end has an advantage. The advantage for team (2) in the extra end is significantly higher. THESE ARE NOT THE SAME! Team in (1) is not necessarily team in (2). The way you get hammer in 1 is not how you get hammer in 2. Introducing the 0.5 rule is trying to fix problem (2) but it is directed at the team with the advantage in (1). It's a logical fallacy.

2. If you want to solve the hammer advantage then I think your culprit is clear: blank ends. Change them to mixed doubles rule and you have solved 1 because the hammers will be even (or a team will have stolen).

3. If you want to solve (2) then your solution needs to address what to do when the game is tied, not who starts with hammer. I don't mind extra ends but I would say the draw to the button becomes a lot easier to stomach if you also eliminate blank ends, because then each team had 5 hammers (or stole) and no one is being denied advantage they earned through the game.


As for the bumper idea:

1. Rules don't need to be applicable to every club. There are dozens of variations across clubs done for fun and practicality.

2. The nuance is that the CORE GAME must be fundamental for standard play. A change to CORE GAMEPLAY that is not achievable in clubs would be bad for the sport. Example 1: rec hockey players don't always follow offside or icing rules but they do use a puck, sticks and a net. Example 2: curling clubs do not all break ties the same way, many leagues allow ties, but they all use ice, rocks and houses of similar sizes.

3. Bumper curling could be adapted by clubs at a cost. But installing bumpers is possible, albeit it many clubs would need to narrow sheets or sideboards or even lose a sheet to do so. Anyone who has ever been in a curling club knows the TV version of dividers is mostly a fantasy for TV and arena curling.

4. I think adding bumpers does change the CORE GAME of curling and therefore you would need clubs to adapt. So you need to justify it. I say this because it fundamentally changes the physics of the game. It's still curling, but a physical variation of the game not merely a rules variation. That isn't an argument for or against the idea, but I think it's important to acknowledge the difference between a rule change and a physical change to play. It's akin to opening the sides of the net in soccer or allowing shots up through the net in basketball. You can do it, but you are changing a core mechanic.

5. Adding bumpers won't remove gray areas. At some point a rock will bump just behind the back line and hit another rock in play and no one will be sure if the back rock was out or not when it hit the second rock. All sports have gray areas and I don't think eliminating confusion is a good argument here, especially when we are talking about something that happens a few times a decade in pro play. The easier solution is for video review, which would actually be accurate. But I think curling is better without video review as a players' honour game and the idea that there's this big side boundary problem doesn't track for me.

6. The idea that you could have non-standard bumpers is hilarious to me. Essentially what you are saying is curling should be a sport of randomness, not skill. That is antithetical to the goal of WCF, etc. to make it a skilled professional sport. Anyone who has ever seen a rock hit off plywood vs. foam vs. rubber can tell you the difference is not merely in material but specific spots (e.g. where does the wood connect behind the bumper?). Playing and watching would be extremely frustrating because players have virtually no idea what will happen. It will feel like a sport of luck. And that is not satisfying for anyone; there's a reason why sports use standardized equipment. To use a weak comparison: baseball has had controversy over the balls this year and their inconsistency. The variable bumper proposal is that time ten million. It will kill the quality of play. Sports are not merely about being exciting, they are about the thrill of skill and execution. You need to be able to make players and viewers feel like skill will win out and too much randomness doesn't work. Dozens of sports have shown field variation is an acceptable bit of luck/randomness, but this type of random equipment proposal goes too far.

7. My biggest point, however, is this: there is no need for such a change. As far as I can tell the only genesis is curlingclips' urge to change curling in some way. It's clearly a compulsion because it is constant. The issue it seems to relate to is excitement factor but as I noted you can't solve excitement with randomness and luck because you sacrifice satisfaction. There are tons of ways to increase the action in curling that doesn't involve introducing physical randomness: change the FGZ, no tick, add more rocks, etc. This suggestion is merely chaos for chaos' sake, designed to entertain someone trying to become famous on the internet.

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10-06-22 12:41PM
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hogged again
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Mar 2019
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Posts: 659

quote:
Originally posted by guido


I have this idiot on my ignore list.
You have to be logged on for it to work.
When I open the page I am not logged on, so I see his posts.
I sign in and his posts disappear.



I was logged in. I go to settings, ignore list, enter the name, hit update list and it says it updated but when I go back in there is no name in the list boxes and the posts are still there.
Ah it's probably for the best anyways, this site has declined in the last while and this is the last straw I needed to decide to move on.
Happy trails to my fellow broom bangers and may your slides be true and your flashes be few.

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10-06-22 01:42PM
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curlingclips
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Thank you, oliviertoisel, for another thoughtful post! I'll try to focus my reply to a couple of points, so as not to annoy you (because I do appreciate your feedback).

quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel
5. Adding bumpers won't remove gray areas.

It's true, and frankly, personally I wish we could take the "Let the rocks go wherever they may, leave the rocks be wherever they stop!" principle to the max, and just ban touching/moving a rock until the end is finished. Yes, I actually do want to apply this to the backline as well, essentially analogous to erasing the line altogether, but this has 2 main issues: (i) anything beyond the backline is usually not captured on camera, and (ii) the hack is supposedly vulnerable to serious damage if struck by a rock, so human interference would be needed.

I think what would need to happen, bumper or not, is that the backline needs to be moved about a stone width away from the house. I've never understood why the backline touches the edge of the 12-foot. I think that's a big no-no precisely because it presents a gray area (see: 2018 Olympics, USA vs NOR, Shuster swept a NOR stone that fully crossed the backline but spun back in to bite the line, Ulsrud accepted Shuster's word and let the rock be removed, even though the rock is also biting the house).

quote:
6. The idea that you could have non-standard bumpers is hilarious to me.

If bumpers become part of curling, I expect that it will be standardized eventually.

Did you know that stones were not standardized when curling was first invented? It was historically acceptable to have stones with widely different measurements, so they play different roles, so much so that they had names.

http://curlinghistory.blogspot.com/...e-had-name.html

Obviously we've more or less standardized stones measurement and shape, although I would argue that there's still quite a difference between Kay's Ailsa greens vs Tuck's Trefor blues just in the profile of the striking band alone.

Anyway, I do acknowledge that introducing bumper is such a big change that it will have to happen in steps. Eventually, after a few years, I expect that people will find the best bumper material and standardize it, but it doesn't have to happen immediately in its first year of adoption.

I expect this material to be synthetic rubber/elastomer.

Last edited by curlingclips on 10-06-22 at 02:16PM

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10-08-22 04:00PM
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Prawnpuller
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Registered: Feb 2013
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Posts: 97

I hate to be negative on this site but “Clips” has pissed me off enough that I feel the need to respond .

It appears his sole purpose in his posts is to 1. Get the dander up of the majority of us true curling fans and in particular “Canadian” fans ( he is one of our neighbors from south of the border) and continually attacks our rules etc. As some have suggested perhaps he is a paid informer and sole purpose is to stir the pot. 2. He admits to being a non curler yet has a far fetched opinion on everything related to the game.On top of that he goes on and on and on and on and on frequently answering his own posts if no one responds….so I apologize to the.general curling population on this forum but I just cannot stomach his ridiculous posts anymore…If Gerry does not kick me off of here lol I too will likely take some time off.This guy in my mind has ruined a good site for fellow curling fans to intelligently discuss the game we all have played and love.Over and out. Rant over


Two things can happen…One is bad.

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10-08-22 04:55PM
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curlingclips
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quote:
Originally posted by Prawnpuller
continually attacks our rules

I don't always attack Canadian rules.

In fact, I absolutely salute Curling Canada for rewriting the burned rock rules for 2022-2026 quadrennial, ahead of WCF and USA.

https://www.curlingzone.com/showthr...?threadid=13382

I haven't read the rules for other countries, but it's entirely possible that Canada is the sole leader in this rewriting of the rule, so I give them all the credit for it. I hope WCF follows Canada's lead. USA follows WCF, as do most other countries probably, but Canada is probably the only one curling country that can lead the way!

Good job, Canada!

//edit: also, pointing out that a Canadian curler born in Manitoba living in Detroit, Michigan, USA can play for Ontario in the Brier/Scotties is not attacking the residency rules. Some people may not like the modernized residency rules the way it is, but I'm just pointing out what the rule says, and if that makes you angry, then that's not me. I didn't write the rules.

Last edited by curlingclips on 10-08-22 at 05:17PM

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10-08-22 06:56PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Mar 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by Prawnpuller
I hate to be negative on this site but “Clips” has pissed me off enough that I feel the need to respond .

It appears his sole purpose in his posts is to 1. Get the dander up of the majority of us true curling fans and in particular “Canadian” fans ( he is one of our neighbors from south of the border) and continually attacks our rules etc. As some have suggested perhaps he is a paid informer and sole purpose is to stir the pot. 2. He admits to being a non curler yet has a far fetched opinion on everything related to the game.On top of that he goes on and on and on and on and on frequently answering his own posts if no one responds….so I apologize to the.general curling population on this forum but I just cannot stomach his ridiculous posts anymore…If Gerry does not kick me off of here lol I too will likely take some time off.This guy in my mind has ruined a good site for fellow curling fans to intelligently discuss the game we all have played and love.Over and out. Rant ovyer


Two things can happen…One is bad.



Like button.

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10-11-22 10:51PM
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Relish
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I'm thrilled this is finally being addressed. As much as I love curling it's always been asinine for the extra end hammer to play such a pivotal role. The ever-popular outlier examples are meaningless in the big picture. In fact, whenever someone desperately summons an outlier they are making the other guy's point, not their own.

I would narrow it to one shot but with strategic input from both teams. That would be fascinating and lend to all kinds of post-game analysis and debate. Make it a combination of Name That Tune and Family Feud.

The teams flip a coin if the game ends in a tie. The winner of the flip decides if they want to name the over/under distance to the button, or have the opponent name the distance. I don't know if the criteria should be a full centimeter or half centimeter. That's for others to decide. Regardless, one team provides the number. The other team decides if they'll play into that number, or force the opponent to do it.

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10-11-22 11:57PM
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curlingclips
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quote:
Originally posted by Relish
one team provides the number. The other team decides if they'll play into that number, or force the opponent to do it.

That's fascinating!

There's also a similar example from chess, and it will come down to this: each team secretly provide a number they'll play into. Reveal both secret numbers simultaneously. Whichever team has the lower number must now make that draw for the game.

This "fixes" the problem with 2 draws as was seen at PBI: 1 draw makes the laser measurement way more exciting for TV. Watching 2 laser measurements is just not that exciting for TV.

Last edited by curlingclips on 10-12-22 at 12:00AM

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11-25-22 01:46AM
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curlingclips
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I just found out that my solid bumper idea was something that Jocelyn Peterman proposed back in 2012.

https://www.curling.ca/blog/2012/02...#:~:text=boards

quote:

Q: If you could change any rule in curling, which one would it be, and why?
A: I would change that rule that the rock is out when it touches the boards because I think the game would be so fun if we could play shots off the side boards.

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