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11-18-15 03:05PM
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Hi Tech Curling Brooms Banned for Season

Just took this link from twitter. Interesting and thought I'd share.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/w...anned-1.3324802

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11-18-15 03:15PM
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Re: Hi Tech Curling Brooms Banned for Season

quote:
Originally posted by albetts
Just took this link from twitter. Interesting and thought I'd share.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/w...anned-1.3324802



The WCF rule now also applies to "hardening or stiffening inserts". So basically the Ice Pad. I'd love to review the careful analysis that went into this decision.

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11-18-15 03:16PM
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Looks like it's basically the same moratorium from a few weeks back with added language about plastic inserts.

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11-18-15 03:21PM
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Re: Re: Hi Tech Curling Brooms Banned for Season

quote:
Originally posted by draway8


The WCF rule now also applies to "hardening or stiffening inserts". So basically the Ice Pad. I'd love to review the careful analysis that went into this decision.



I know "they are the new clothing supplier for Curling Canada, so we can't ban them"..."oh, they supply brooms to most of the GSOC teams, so we can't ban them".

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11-18-15 03:21PM
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The EQ heads banned as well? Norway Pad?

Someone needs to come out with a list.

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11-18-15 03:33PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil_D
Looks like it's basically the same moratorium from a few weeks back with added language about plastic inserts.


Well, I think the part about waterproofing even on 'woven' heads is new too.

Woven vs not-woven was relatively simple to figure out..and hard inserts is easy too...but, unless manufacturers jump out there and talk about waterproofing...that'll be a hard one.

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11-18-15 03:40PM
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quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
The EQ heads banned as well? Norway Pad?

Someone needs to come out with a list.



I would like to know what they are defining in the categories. Just like you mentioned.

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11-18-15 03:44PM
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quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
The EQ heads banned as well? Norway Pad?

Someone needs to come out with a list.



Neither of those are banned - hmmmm

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11-18-15 03:50PM
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quote:
Originally posted by livem1


Well, I think the part about waterproofing even on 'woven' heads is new too.

Woven vs not-woven was relatively simple to figure out..and hard inserts is easy too...but, unless manufacturers jump out there and talk about waterproofing...that'll be a hard one.



11/6: http://worldcurling.org/brush-head-technology-pacc

Today: http://worldcurling.org/brush-head-technology-2015-16

So yeah, it is new. Overall (looking at them side by side) they were also a bit more specific and clear in their language with the latest statement.

Reading it again, I think they're talking about waterproofing that essentially seals it, which would probably be detectable by touch/feel or sight...I imagine the head would look/feel different. I don't think they're talking about treatment to the fibers themselves, which they said is allowed provided it's done prior to weaving.

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11-18-15 04:41PM
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The waterproofing they are referring to is the prevent gaps between the weave.

The fibers woven can be made of cotton, canvas, linen, nylon, etc. Some absorb water, some do not. The EQ was more of a material that did not absorb as compared to traditional fabric used.

But regardless of the fiber used, there is a gap in the weave. You can weave really tight, but still a gap. This rule applies to applying a substance or finish applied to the weave once complete to fill in that small gap.

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11-18-15 04:53PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
This rule applies to applying a substance or finish applied to the weave once complete to fill in that small gap.

Kinda like putting epoxy over fiberglass fabric on an airplane wing or a boat hull. Not allowed. Also no hard structures beneath the fibre. Think: "scraping a hunk of 2X4 across the ice in front of the rock". Uhmm.. naw. Original straw brooms were light and feathered the ice, with air as part of the mix. Solid continuous contact with no air didn't occur until the performance heads. Or maybe the hammer. Now - the new tech is looking to "scrape" instead of "brush". I'd like to hear the icemakers voice in this discussion.

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11-18-15 04:53PM
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What a pile of BS the WCF has concluded here. A few weeks ago it was the fabric then players realized their own fabric could do the same thing with corner sweeping or 1 sweeper. Change gears and continue the attack on 1 broom manufacturer and go after water proofing and a plastic insert as being the problem. The issue is proper independent and scientific testing results still have not been produced and the decision is rooted solely on the merits of being able to identify something that is actually innovative, unique and only exists on 1 of the broom manufacturer's heads so you can single them out. Some of the non Hardline players have done a terrific job in misleading everyone about what the real objective of the debate was. Now hundreds of players and teams that invested in this technology for the season can't use it (assuming the CCA follows suit which you can bet they will do). The technology was not new this year but yet the decision gets made in the middle of season which will costs teams thousands of dollars. So not only does Hardline lose but all the other manufacturers get new sales out of this as well. How convenient! The EQ and Norway pad should also be banned as well because they can do the same thing the Icepad can do. The exception is that the icepad is water proof (which is a good invention) and the plastic insert that balances the downward pressure across the head (also a good idea). The sport and it's credibility for having professional and unbiased leadership has truly taken a massive hit here and my hope is Hardline and perhaps the "Wealthy Barber" take a run at legal challenges on this one.

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11-18-15 05:13PM
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swjones, I take the same information as you, but end up with a different conclusion.

Here is what is actually happening. Broom technology is being rolled back to what was last deemed acceptable (EQ Pad or equivalent) by the masses. I think that just about everyone will agree that this technology is acceptable. This is being done so as to prevent any issues or disagreements. In the mean time more studies will be done to determine what effects are definitely achieved by new broom technology (sealed fabrics, plastic inserts, etc.). A decision will be made, but this type of study takes time. I feel that this ruling is being made to try to put any confusion to bed for the rest of this season.

In the mean time, you can use your IcePad broom. All you have to do it turn the pad inside out, and remove the plastic insert between the foam and the pad (I'll admit I dont have one, so not suer how hard that step will be)

But your equipment is not illegal. HL can STILL sell their product. And the IcePad will still be the lightest broom on the ice.

To me this is a pragmatic approach, that is not for or against any company, rather in teh best interest of the game.

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11-18-15 05:24PM
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Well Thomas Ulrsud will argue the flipped pad still created an advantage for Reid Carruthers a few weeks ago so I can only hope you are true. If not then this November 17th date in the ruling does not even allow Hardline to put an EQ similar fabric on Hardline brooms for this season. It effectively puts every competitive Hard Line team into a situation of having to buy new sticks. This plastic insert discussion only started after some players realized the talk about directional fabric was absolutely ridiculous so they have to try something else. That was clear when Hardline teams with flipped pads still continued to win games and events. Can we just stop for a second and realize that Team McEwen has been the best team in the World for a few years now (pre and post Hardline brooms in their equipment bag) and Brad Gushue has emerged and quite possibly the best skip and last rock thrower in the game today. They are not #1 and #2 in the world because of brooms. Tiger Woods was #1 in the world swinging Nike clubs which nobody on the planet would say was the best equipment on the market or giving him an advantage. But of course McEwen and Gushue are using equipment that clearly gives them an advantage. Put Hardline sticks in their opponents hands and the results don't change much. The timing of the decision is the worst part. These brooms have been around for more than 2 season so why now? It just stinks of some other agenda to witch hunt Hard Line but maybe I am missing something.

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11-18-15 05:36PM
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I just want to point out that the EQ+ is part of the ban/moratorium.

The plastic piece in the front of the Hardline broom is really what is the root of the problem. It was tested in a bunch of brooms with a piece of plastic and the same result. At the end of the day the WCF decided to ban certain materials as well, until more testing can be done.

So at this time it's the Hardline on one side and the EQ+ until further notice.

Anyone who has seen the broom heads in action when properly used can't tell me they are good for the game of curling. I used a BalancePlus head with plastic in it for a few games and it's stupid what could be done with a rock.

This is honestly a fair decision. Hardline users can still use their brooms and BalancePlus teams just have to go back to the regular EQ.

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11-18-15 05:44PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Keaner
I just want to point out that the EQ+ is part of the ban/moratorium.

The plastic piece in the front of the Hardline broom is really what is the root of the problem. It was tested in a bunch of brooms with a piece of plastic and the same result. At the end of the day the WCF decided to ban certain materials as well, until more testing can be done.

So at this time it's the Hardline on one side and the EQ+ until further notice.

Anyone who has seen the broom heads in action when properly used can't tell me they are good for the game of curling. I used a BalancePlus head with plastic in it for a few games and it's stupid what could be done with a rock.

This is honestly a fair decision. Hardline users can still use their brooms and BalancePlus teams just have to go back to the regular EQ.



exactly.
fwiw....i looked for an eq+ head on the ice during grand slams since the player detente and i didn't see one eq+....only eq (suppose i could've missed something). it would seem they self banned that awhile back. i would have to think (given the stock i've seen online), that olson and goldline may have at least one head in their line that are either embossed and/or post-woven waterproofed. someone in a previous thread mentioned olson 'glacier'...but, the closest name i see on that is the GR8. info would be great

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11-18-15 05:50PM
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also, does ANY other manufacturer have just one single fabric that they built their entire stock around? (no) it's definitely bad on the governing bodies of curling that they didn't get involved in testing/regulation sooner. but, it's HL's problem if they have seemingly no diversity of product. if you have one of the lightest brooms and compact heads on the market....why not run with that and make a traditional cover as well that has overall costs less than their $17 embossed which seems to lose effectiveness 'relatively' quickly and requires lots of replacement?

if hardline comes out with a statement that they are being singled out....then 1) that's false and 2) it shows how much they actually care about the sport and the spirit of the game. (imo) seriously, take out a piece of plastic and put on a conforming cover....and use one of the lightest brooms on the market and stop complaining for the rest of the year. if archie wants to make a case for his broom leading up to next year....then he can certainly get involved with testing and show that it doesn't do what it's being accused of. (eq+ for that matter too)

Last edited by livem1 on 11-18-15 at 06:09PM

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11-18-15 06:09PM
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I am sure Hard Line would gladly produce a new fabric for this season that is similar to the EQ however the WCF also was very "unbiased" in there ruling that only pads available for sale on November 17 or earlier are legal. Not only do they ban the existing product but they given them zero room to put a replacement out there. No other sporting regulation on equipment to my knowledge has ever been so immediate, hard hitting and completely without a proper due process and timeline. I think the WCF was sleeping all last season and this summer when the icepad was out there on the ice and gaining rapid market share. I guess it was not creating an advantage last season. It's just this season that it happened?

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11-18-15 06:20PM
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quote:
Originally posted by swjones
I am sure Hard Line would gladly produce a new fabric for this season that is similar to the EQ however the WCF also was very "unbiased" in there ruling that only pads available for sale on November 17 or earlier are legal. Not only do they ban the existing product but they given them zero room to put a replacement out there. No other sporting regulation on equipment to my knowledge has ever been so immediate, hard hitting and completely without a proper due process and timeline. I think the WCF was sleeping all last season and this summer when the icepad was out there on the ice and gaining rapid market share. I guess it was not creating an advantage last season. It's just this season that it happened?


I could be wrong....but, after the detente in mid-October, Archie was on The Curling Show podcast with Dean Gemmell and said that we was getting 'new fabric together for his teams'. It was my assumption that flipping them inside out was not the only option. I hear what you're saying on the immediacy. However, I'm positive he and the WCF have been in communication and today is not the first chance he's had to address the issue.

Also, as I understand it, IcePad fabric is embossed on front and woven on the inside. Some other manufacturers of 'stapled' fabrics are somewhat the reverse (with pressed on the inside). Having to flip IcePad inside-out is a 'step down'apparently from the embossed side. However, it's a fine alternative performance-wise (according to the Ontario Curling Tour body...EQ, Norway and flipped IcePad performed equally). But, if you're Hardline and you have only one horse in your stable for 2+ years and it pulls up lame....are you a very good stable manager?

If you haven't heard that podcast....it's a good listen. As well as the one prior to that with Marc Kennedy and Ben Hebert that I think was recorded before the whole thing came down....they talk about how trouble has been brewing for quite awhile. (note: i just looked and the MK/BH interview was just before the 'blackhead' gauntlet was thrown down....I suppose it's possible they knew that BP had that in the works....who knows?)

Last edited by livem1 on 11-18-15 at 07:06PM

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11-18-15 07:07PM
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quote:
Originally posted by swjones
I am sure Hard Line would gladly produce a new fabric for this season that is similar to the EQ however the WCF also was very "unbiased" in there ruling that only pads available for sale on November 17 or earlier are legal. Not only do they ban the existing product but they given them zero room to put a replacement out there.


I believe yoru assumption to be false. I believe that the NovV 17th deadline means no more new products will be approved. So you cannot bring a new broom tech to the ice for right now.

BUT, I believe that if HL would adopt a traditional fabric/foam style like an EQ or Performance pad, that would be OK. While it is technically new, it is not new technology. I truly believe that if Archie submitted a traditional pad with his HL light shaft, it would easily be approved

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11-18-15 07:09PM
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quote:
Originally posted by swjones
If not then this November 17th date in the ruling does not even allow Hardline to put an EQ similar fabric on Hardline brooms for this season.


Woah. Didn't really put two and two together on that one. So if Hardline (or anyone else) comes out with a new cover that is compliant (say with a fabric that is say "constructed of fibres which may have had a waterproofing process applied to the fibres before being woven" ) and fits on the IcePad head they still can't be used in competition ??

That is just dirty pool by the WCF.

Last edited by Dynomite2910 on 11-18-15 at 07:12PM

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11-18-15 07:18PM
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quote:
Originally posted by swjones
W This plastic insert discussion only started after some players realized the talk about directional fabric was absolutely ridiculous so they have to try something else.


Just FYI, I am not trying to argue with you, I think a healthy two sided conversation is good progress.

Here is a fundamental flaw in the HL Icepad marketing push. They state on their site that their pad only brushes on top of the pebble not in between the pebble. This means no wasted energy polishing area that is not important. It is a very brilliant concept. This is accomplished with the plastic insert.

But here is the problem. When you put your weight on teh broom, and only polish the pebble, rather than the whole ice area, it means more force on teh pebble. If you think a bit further, it means that the Icepad will by default wear the pebble more than a traditional pad. One could say that it will cause more damage to the ice versus a traditional pad. Maybe that is not true, it will take more time to study, hence the moratorium.

So if HL removes the plastic pad, this new technology goes away and make it even for now.

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11-18-15 07:28PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky


Just FYI, I am not trying to argue with you, I think a healthy two sided conversation is good progress.

Here is a fundamental flaw in the HL Icepad marketing push. They state on their site that their pad only brushes on top of the pebble not in between the pebble. This means no wasted energy polishing area that is not important. It is a very brilliant concept. This is accomplished with the plastic insert.

But here is the problem. When you put your weight on teh broom, and only polish the pebble, rather than the whole ice area, it means more force on teh pebble. If you think a bit further, it means that the Icepad will by default wear the pebble more than a traditional pad. One could say that it will cause more damage to the ice versus a traditional pad. Maybe that is not true, it will take more time to study, hence the moratorium.

So if HL removes the plastic pad, this new technology goes away and make it even for now.



But I would say the fact that we've gone from the "directional fabric" argument to the "sealed fabric" argument to the "hardened insert" argument is just clear evidence that this has been a witch hunt all along to get the IcePad out.

Basically what they are saying is "The IcePad is too good but we not are not sure why so we will just ban every aspect of it." Which is really really unfair to one player in multi million dollar market.

Come up with some real standards based on real evidence and have a real way to test those standards. That is all Hardline has ever asked for.

Changing the rules on the fly and this fast all prejudice against one vendor is just offside.

And BTW ... after watching the National final on Sunday and seeing how both Gushue and Carruthers were sweeping... how much do you want to bet that in the end we are going to end up saying the real problem is the one man one side sweeping technique. They were making the rock move where they wanted with hair brooms !

Last edited by Dynomite2910 on 11-18-15 at 07:44PM

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11-18-15 07:46PM
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Location: Toronto
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Wake up people and call BS on this WCF garbage! This Euro gang again calling the shots no doubt pushed by GL & BP. Any reasonable observer should see thru this ridiculous action by WCF, esp in mid season. Now it's the insert, last week directional etc. Total witch hunt. Anyone bother to listen toHarris & Martin discuss at Slam that the curling world via Gushue, has discovered technical advances of one side sweeping? They pointed out this is true w any brush. Yes testing needed but totally unreasonable mid season ruling to both HL & HL teams. Their comments will be interesting. This WCF behaviour really makes the sport look bush. Poor Euros stuck with GL dinosaur brooms.

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11-18-15 07:56PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 61

Here's Hardline's response this evening....
http://hardlinecurlingnews.blogspot...ase-nov-18.html

Again, they don't seem to be the ONLY fabric being dinged by this.

Anyway, I find Archie very defensive and sometimes not consistently rational on his 'fact' arguments. But, I'm not out to bash them....like curlky, I'm doing my best to think of the 'spirt of the game' first and look at things rationally.

I have to agree with him (and others) that see that 'directional' fabric is abrasive by nature and Hardline anecdotally seems to be the 'most effective' (their own words and players on the tour)...which seems to suggest 'most abrasive', yes? add to that a somewhat rigid insert and you kind of have a sandpaper block, right? Time will tell if that's acceptable for the game or not. Remember, the ice maker at the women's OVCA spiel recently said that he wished they'd ban it because causing the stones to 'fall' was making it look like he was making bad ice. That's his opinion anyway.

In the Hardline release, Archie says he wants transparency and independent testing....I think everyone wants that and it'll happen. He also says they're being singled out (which is false). He also wants the ridged 'Norway' banned and the foil insert in BP....but, the point is the rigidity (sand block effect) and those are really flexible. Maybe testing will prove those out....I think it's not quite in the same category. He also says that he wants all this data on testing....but, then mentions that 'testing' (probably the '10 Ottawa testing) shows that their broom follows the principles that applies to every broom fabric. That may be true and they did change to allow corner sweeping....but, no other teams, other than Hardline teams, seem to utilize one sweeper only and that should say something about the 'degree' of differences in the physics, right?

He spends soooo much time in his marketing saying how they've thrown hundreds of years of sweeping thinking out the window (something to that effect) and hypes how superior his product is to everyone else's and talks about their 'secret fabric'...all to sell brooms. But, then wants to say they are like everyone else when it comes down to what people/governing bodies think they are seeing out there. Seems odd to me. Basically, everything about they way they won Dragon's den and their marketing says that they've pushed it further than any company ever has and they are flat out the best....so, should he be surprised that some of the physics might be coming up against the spirit of the game?

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