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02-23-16 02:15PM
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by Skinz


Good luck trying to measure if a rock is actually touching the line.



They do it with now with hogline, sidelines and backlines. Just need a straight-edge as tall as the rock to tell if it's on the line or not.

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02-23-16 02:23PM
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I've always liked the idea that an extra end becomes a skins end (must score two with hammer, or steal). Ties can either carry over to a 12th end or be ruled a tie in round-robin

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02-23-16 02:28PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlersrus
None of these changes will fix the biggest problem in curling.
In a tie game in the last end when 2 ticks are made or a double peel is made then the game becomes boring.




Double peels and ticks aren't the easiest shots to accomplish. If curlers can make these, they should be rewarded. They just had nine ends to get a lead. They shouldn't get ultra rewarded in the 10th because they couldn't get a lead before that.

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02-23-16 02:45PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Netz
I would like to see the rule changed to "if you blank end you lose the hammer".


In Europe, if you blank the extra end, you lose the game! At least it used to be that way.

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02-24-16 04:26PM
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
[QUOTE]Originally posted by milobloom
[B]After watching provincial playdowns and preparing myself to watch Scotties this week, it has become more apparent than ever that 5 rock FGZ should be adopted for all play.


not sure that there is much planning in the 5 guard rule - just plugs up the front a bit and with last 4 rocks the hail merrys start ...

good for television but not so much for the best players that used to win more



No need for a 5 rock rule. Just have a 2 GUARD RULE: Both leads have to put up a guard on the 4 foot with their first stone. No peels, no tick shots. You start the end with 2 guards that are positionned strategically in front of the four foot . They can be long or short, on the center line or along the edges of the four foot.

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02-24-16 04:29PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sussman
I've always liked the idea that an extra end becomes a skins end (must score two with hammer, or steal). Ties can either carry over to a 12th end or be ruled a tie in round-robin


Love this idea. Extra end is SKINS. Eliminates huge advantage of last rock. No easy ticks or peels.

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02-24-16 04:55PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Marco2010


Love this idea. Extra end is SKINS. Eliminates huge advantage of last rock. No easy ticks or peels.



I don't think it eliminates the advantage. You would still tick. If you made both, you should have some corners to work with.

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02-24-16 04:58PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Marco2010


No need for a 5 rock rule. Just have a 2 GUARD RULE: Both leads have to put up a guard on the 4 foot with their first stone. No peels, no tick shots. You start the end with 2 guards that are positionned strategically in front of the four foot . They can be long or short, on the center line or along the edges of the four foot.



I don't like trying to mandate where a team places a rock. What do you do if the team with last rock "misses" and puts it in the rings, or short? Would you just place it somewhere?

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02-24-16 10:57PM
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If the leads first stone isn't a guard on the four foot circle or comes in contact with the other teams guard, this rock is placed by the other team as a guard on the four foot circle and the displaced stone is reposition ed.

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02-25-16 12:59AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Marco2010
If the leads first stone isn't a guard on the four foot circle or comes in contact with the other teams guard, this rock is placed by the other team as a guard on the four foot circle and the displaced stone is reposition ed.


Ok, I am not a fan of this idea.

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02-25-16 01:18PM
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If a superior team has spent the first 7 (or 9) ends building up a lead why should they be punished? Do people complain about an NFL team "running out" the last 2 minutes or an NBA team "running out the last 24000/1000 seconds of the clock?

Don't forget, there's always the option to "Shake Hands".

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02-25-16 01:30PM
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I think the best rule change that could happen is a blank end loses the hammer. This will inherently push more offensive play which is needed for tv ratings and butts in the stands.

The FGZ rule was created and adopted to address the issue of super defensive play and now with the skill level of the players and relative ease of runbacks and bail shots, the 4 rock rule is less effective at removing defensive play than it once was (remember how big a difference 3 and 4 rock were...now I find 4 rock reminds me of 3). I think it is important to implement a rule that addresses this on a scoring basis and not on a further trying to further complicate ends basis (ie. 5 rock rule, 6 rock rule, when does it end). The 5 rock rule will impart more offense in the beginning, but it will slowly become less as did the 4 rock rule as players figure out the strategy and even more teams become better throwers and can bail. By changing how the game is scored with losing hammer in a blank end, teams will feel they have to start an end offensively if they have hammer...as opposed to being forced to because your opponent is offensive/aggressive.

Blank end = you failed to score multiple = you lose the hammer. Simple.

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02-25-16 01:35PM
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Or if you wanted to get somewhat complicated with the blank end lose hammer rule and give the team that blanked some choice you could say:
blank end, no scoring but you lose hammer
-or-
blank end, opponent credited with 1 point to keep hammer

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02-25-16 01:49PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curler2014
I think the best rule change that could happen is a blank end loses the hammer. This will inherently push more offensive play which is needed for tv ratings and butts in the stands.


Blank end = you failed to score multiple = you lose the hammer. Simple.



I dunno when this change happened because I still love watching Colleen Jones play a game and sit in her viper's den waiting for a mistake, consistently making simple shots, frustrating her opponents, and striking with her venom to generate a deuce on unforced errors. Listening to team babble and babble about shots they know they really aren't prepared to make and then miss them takes the fun out of the sport for me. The simple truth is only a few teams can compete and execute at the level of strategy and mess currently being called by Jennifer Jones/Rachel Homan etc. In fact, when a team like that doesn't have enough rocks in play, they seem to get frustrated and make mistakes. THAT IS GOOD TELEVISION TO ME.

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02-25-16 03:39PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobogie
If a superior team has spent the first 7 (or 9) ends building up a lead why should they be punished? Do people complain about an NFL team "running out" the last 2 minutes or an NBA team "running out the last 24000/1000 seconds of the clock?

Don't forget, there's always the option to "Shake Hands".



2 minutes out of 60 minutes is only 1/30 or 3% of the game. Blanking 1 end out of 8 in a Slam is 12,5% and 2 ends is 25% of the playing time. It's way too much. Imagine a basketball or football team being allowed to run out 25% or 15 out of 60 minutes in a game.

When curling rules were invented a long time ago blank ends practically never happened because the ice was usually bad and the rocks mismatched. Nobody peeled or tried to blank.you took your point. If curling was invented today you would lose last rock if the end was blanked. I hope that one day somebody misses an open draw for one to win the Brier on the 10th end. When that team gets to try again and keep the hammer on the extra end, people might finally see that it doesn't make much sense. Last rock, use it or lose.

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02-27-16 05:02PM
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The debate about blowouts takes place in every sport.

Ass-whuppings happen. Nothing you can do about it. That's sports. No rock rule, 3 rock, 4 rock, 5 rock-it doesn't matter people. Someone, once in a while, is going to get their butt kicked.

You can't erase it, you can only barely reduce it. But it won't happen unless you change the way the score is kept. So I'll put up my solution as an alternative before we end up with no sweeping (because all brooms are BAD!-lol) and the 8 rock rule.

Skins scoring is the best answer.

It now no longer matters how many points you score in an end because you are only playing to win the end and each end has a value of 1 point.

To get that point you must count two or more with hammer or steal the end without the hammer. A blank (or halved) end results in the point carrying over and the loss of hammer ( although there is an argument for an alternating hammer in this form of the game).

First team to score 6 points (10 end game) or 5 points (8 end game) wins. This does mean a game could be over in 5-6 ends. However, no game is a done deal until that final point is won. If you're down 4 (or 5) to nothing you still have a reasonable chance to get back in the game and win. The same can't be said if you're in the same situation under the current system.

What I'd love to see is a spiel use this system to see how it plays out. Every end would be interesting and giving up a big score wouldn't be a game killer. Truth is, every end becomes a mini-game unto itself. How can than not be fun?

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02-27-16 07:05PM
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Skins play in extra end still doesn't take away the advantage that many of the elite teams have.

The tick shot.

With skins play, if you make both tick shots in the extra end, you'll have a wall of corner guards on each side of the sheet like we do now.

I doubt it would change the final end of a tie game much to be honest.

Tick and ideally roll in. At minimum roll for 2 guards. They throw another guard, repeat first shot. If hammer team gets one in around the corners, it's going to be tough to prevent the two and little chance of stealing.

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02-27-16 07:56PM
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You are all basing these ideas on competitive (high level) teams. You can't keep changing the rules for the thousands of curlers who keep clubs going who just want to play simple.

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02-27-16 07:59PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curler2014
Or if you wanted to get somewhat complicated with the blank end lose hammer rule and give the team that blanked some choice you could say:
blank end, no scoring but you lose hammer
-or-
blank end, opponent credited with 1 point to keep hammer



Eventually we'll be here talking about a seven-guard rule...anybody care to argue with me?

As far as hammer is concerned, since nobody cares about strategy anymore, why not just alternate the darn thing? One team gets even ends & the other team gets odd ends.

Is everybody happy now? And if not, why not?

Fire away!

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02-27-16 09:39PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Par89
You are all basing these ideas on competitive (high level) teams. You can't keep changing the rules for the thousands of curlers who keep clubs going who just want to play simple.


Exactly !!!!

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02-28-16 01:16PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobogie


Eventually we'll be here talking about a seven-guard rule...anybody care to argue with me?

As far as hammer is concerned, since nobody cares about strategy anymore, why not just alternate the darn thing? One team gets even ends & the other team gets odd ends.

Is everybody happy now? And if not, why not?

Fire away!



Actually I agree wholeheartedly. If you note, my skins scoring alternative suggests alternating hammer as an option.

Skins scoring is IMHO, the best solution. Action packed ends, likely fewer blanks and no matter the score you're still alive until the other team scores the final point.

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02-28-16 02:16PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
Skins play in extra end still doesn't take away the advantage that many of the elite teams have.

The tick shot.

With skins play, if you make both tick shots in the extra end, you'll have a wall of corner guards on each side of the sheet like we do now.

I doubt it would change the final end of a tie game much to be honest.

Tick and ideally roll in. At minimum roll for 2 guards. They throw another guard, repeat first shot. If hammer team gets one in around the corners, it's going to be tough to prevent the two and little chance of stealing.



Gerry has a point. Tick shots are the new peel. A 2 guard rule might correct the imbalance of having last rock. If both leads put up a guard on the four foot with their first stone, the team without last rock has better odds of stealing.

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02-28-16 03:17PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Marco2010


Gerry has a point. Tick shots are the new peel. A 2 guard rule might correct the imbalance of having last rock. If both leads put up a guard on the four foot with their first stone, the team without last rock has better odds of stealing.



You and Gerry are presuming that teams will continue to use the tick if it's skins scoring and I'm not entirely sure you're correct.

If you have to score two why remove the guards at all? I can understand the attempt to split for two corners but no one is 100% perfect. Most likely you're going to end up with 4 guards in various locations. A more ideal situation for a steal or a force/blank.

If it's me I would ignore the centre guard, toss up a corner that is promotable and then start diving into the rings. As much as your opponent needs those stones to steal/force, you also need them to get two.

And therein lies the sheer beauty of skins scoring. It rewards BOTH teams for offensive play and does not penalize them for giving up that one big end. It also changes the way we play defence.

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Last edited by jamcan on 02-28-16 at 03:24PM

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02-28-16 05:38PM
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You have a point jamcan but whatever is proposed is a step in the right direction. We have to counterbalance the huge advantage of last rock to give both teams a fair chance.

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03-10-16 01:53AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Blanking curling to death

In what other sport do teams choose not to score? What is wrong with us? We need a blank end rule: Last rock advantage, use it or lose it. The team without last rock can't go in the reverse blank mode and automatically or easely force you to one because of the FGZ and the fact that you can't tick away a corner guard without remaining as some sort of guard yourself.

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