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<smallfont><b><a href=CurlingZone > Chat Forums > General Curling Chat > Rock Talk > Idea to eliminate extra ends: award win to the team that throws first rock

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01-05-22 04:28PM
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curlingclips
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Idea to eliminate extra ends: award win to the team that throws first rock

I've recently been brainstorming this idea, which I've since found out has been tossed around in some circles for a while now. I'm not sure if this has been discussed on CurlingZone already or not; feel free to send links to old existing threads if any.

First of all, personally as a viewer I don't think extra ends are a problem. That said, WCF is apparently thinking about eliminating extra ends (see: https://worldcurling.org/2021/10/mtv-rule-three/ ), so let's explore and discuss one idea where extra ends can be eliminated.

I propose that we do the following:

If both teams score the same number of points after 10 ends, give the win to the team that throws first rock of the game.

So in a way, we're putting a price on LSFE (Last Stone First End, i.e. having hammer at the start of the game): it puts that team 0.5 point behind the opposition. In other words, instead of starting the game at 0—0 score, the game starts at 0.5—0, with the team that is behind on the scoreboard having hammer at the start of the game.

Starting the game with hammer is universally accepted as strategically advantageous, and right now there are absolutely no downside. With this new proposal, that privilege of initial control now comes with the additional burden of requiring that the team scores more points than the opposition to win.

Note that pretty much all scoreboards already denote which team has LSFE (usually with an asterisk), so there's no need for actual scoreboards to explicitly say 0.5 points, if that is deemed too weird. We can still use whole numbers for scores, but with the asterisk tiebreaker when it's needed depending on context.

Note that analytics will now have to split into two. We can no longer analyze, say "down 1 with" oblivious of who had LSFE, because now we have two completely different situations, namely "down 0.5 with" and "down 1.5 with".

In other words, if you're "down 1 with" in the last end, and you threw first rock of the game, you now only need 1 point to win. On the other hand, if you're "down 1 with", but you had hammer at the start of the game, you now need 2 points to win.

I don't have the stats with me, but I believe having LSFE is a significant predictor for who wins the game. I think it has started to be less significant with 5-rock FGZ, but it's still over 50% chance to win when you have LSFE.

Of course a team had to outperform the opposition in one way or another to even had LSFE to begin with (via LSD/DSC/head-to-head/win-loss record/etc.), so perhaps it is expected that whoever has LSFE is more likely to win, because they've already proven themselves to be "better" one way or another. Incurring a 0.5 point handicap to this "better" team will probably upset the competitors, but I would argue is probably more exciting for viewers!

If you are indeed the "better" team, and you have the privilege of hammer at the start of the game on top of that, then show us by scoring more points in 10 ends!

Now, one might protest against this proposal and say that LSFE now becomes disadvantageous, and that maybe it's better to grab the freebie 0.5 point and throw first rock of the game instead. Regardless of whether or not this turns out to be true, it's worth noting that the current WCF rules already allows you to decline LSFE in all scenarios where you've earned it!

That is, currently LSFE is never forced upon a team. If you have better LSD, i.e. you draw to the button closer than the opposition before the game, you didn't actually win the hammer. Instead, you've won the privilege to choose whether to throw first or second rock of the game! (see: WCF definition of LSD).

Even if the opposition is 5 minutes late to the start of the game, and they're penalized according to the rules by awarding you 1 freebie point for the first end, and you're "given hammer" to start the 2nd end, you can already decline it and choose to throw first rock of the game instead, if you so wish! (see: WCF rules (2020) R11.(i)).

Of course right now LSFE is so advantageous, with all the pluses and no minuses, that no team would ever decline it. If, however, we put this additional burden to LSFE, where you have to win decisively by scoring more points, then maybe this choice becomes more nuanced and interesting!

If you truly believe that it is in your best interest to decline LSFE and impose this burden on your opposition instead, then go ahead and say so! Grab your freebie 0.5 point and throw the first rock of the game!

Anyway, I hope you get the gist of this proposal. Let me know your thoughts.

---

See also: WCF rules (2020)
https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/...-of-Curling.pdf

See also: Armageddon Chess (with the privilege of playing as White, you must now win decisively, because a traditional "draw" is now a win for Black).
https://www.chess.com/terms/armageddon-chess

Last edited by curlingclips on 01-05-22 at 05:16PM

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01-05-22 05:18PM
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I’ve thought this was the way to go for a while.

I can’t think of another sport where the advantage of “going first” or “going second” gives such an overall advantage to the outcome of the game so I feel using it to determine tiebreaking makes sense.

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01-05-22 05:41PM
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🤦‍♂️is the only necessary comment here...

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01-05-22 05:43PM
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You really need to go out and curl for a few years before you start throwing these ideas out.

It is ridiculous and if you actually played at club level you might get it. Play your heart out at higher levels and you would understand what I mean.

"get rid of tiereakers, get rid of extra ends"!

You are trying to eliminate what we enjoy most. CURLING!!

I enjoy your clips and your comments, but this analysis is, in my opinion, a waste of time.

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Last edited by biterbar on 01-05-22 at 05:59PM

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01-05-22 05:58PM
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quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
It is ridiculous

Can you explain why is it ridiculous to expect decisive victory in 10 ends instead of extending the game, potentially indefinitely, with extra end/double extra end/etc.?

Right now there's absolutely no limit to how many extra ends can be played. You can keep blanking extra ends and the game continues forever until someone scores. How do you justify that?

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01-05-22 06:03PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

Can you explain why is it ridiculous to expect decisive victory in 10 ends instead of extending the game, potentially indefinitely, with extra end/double extra end/etc.?

Right now there's absolutely no limit to how many extra ends can be played. You can keep blanking extra ends and the game continues forever until someone scores. How do you justify that?



Do your research on how many games have gone to a second extra end. I have seen 2 in 25 years personally or at any level. A third extra end, never seen or heard of one.

The game is curling, and that's where wins and losses are determined. ON THE ICE!

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01-05-22 06:57PM
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quote:
Originally posted by biterbar


Do your research on how many games have gone to a second extra end. I have seen 2 in 25 years personally or at any level. A third extra end, never seen or heard of one.

The game is curling, and that's where wins and losses are determined. ON THE ICE!



Exactly. I think I remember a Brier game way back that took a 2nd extra and in 40+ years of hacker league play I've played 1 seen 1 other. With the level the players are at now a 2nd EE is extremely unlikely.
First rule is keep it simple. The points on the scoreboard determining the winner is the simplest whether that's in 8, 10, 11 or even 15 ends.

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01-05-22 07:07PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hogged again
The points on the scoreboard determining the winner

That is still what I'm proposing. Ignore the 0.5 point handicap, and just look at the points on the scoreboard. If the totals are not equal, i.e. one team scores more than the other, that team wins. If the totals are equal, then the team without LSFE asterisk wins.

Other sports can declare winner even though score is tied, e.g. Greco Roman wrestling, which depending on certain factors, awards win to the wrestler who scored the last point, if score is tied after a match.

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01-05-22 07:37PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

That is still what I'm proposing. Ignore the 0.5 point handicap, and just look at the points on the scoreboard. If the totals are not equal, i.e. one team scores more than the other, that team wins. If the totals are equal, then the team without LSFE asterisk wins.

Other sports can declare winner even though score is tied, e.g. Greco Roman wrestling, which depending on certain factors, awards win to the wrestler who scored the last point, if score is tied after a match.


Again you are misrepresenting. I say the points on the scoreboard determine the winner and you say that is what you are still proposing when it is not. The LSFE asterisk is not points on the scoreboard.

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01-05-22 07:58PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

That is still what I'm proposing. Ignore the 0.5 point handicap, and just look at the points on the scoreboard. If the totals are not equal, i.e. one team scores more than the other, that team wins. If the totals are equal, then the team without LSFE asterisk wins.

Other sports can declare winner even though score is tied, e.g. Greco Roman wrestling, which depending on certain factors, awards win to the wrestler who scored the last point, if score is tied after a match.



No self respecting curler would ever agree with this concept. That is only point that matters here.

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01-05-22 08:28PM
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Soliloquy

quote:
Originally posted by biterbar


No self respecting curler would ever agree with this concept. That is only point that matters here.



1000% agree. To this and a couple posts earlier. As stated many times here, need a like button.

There’s a few in here that feel the need to write a soliloquy or short story, working their way up to a novel. Hey look at me I can ramble forever. Then add a bunch of links and useless facts to argue ad nauseam. Why can’t they just realize they don’t understand the curling world. Give it up. I guarantee replies will include more of the same.

Would any other sport give the win to whoever played first. NFL lose the coin toss but defer so a tie game they win. NHL lose the first face off, but win if it’s tied. No overtime? MLB visiting team wins in a tie because they batted first? NBA team that loses the opening toss wins if it’s a tie. Golf tied after 18 but whoever teed off first wins, no playoff? I could go on 100 more sports.

I just don’t get it. Yes I’m old and grumpy, but this BS is beyond belief.
The ghost of the honourable Ray Turnbull just rolled over in his grave. And for those that write these prolonged bs post, google him.

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01-05-22 08:30PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

Can you explain why is it ridiculous to expect decisive victory in 10 ends instead of extending the game, potentially indefinitely, with extra end/double extra end/etc.?

Right now there's absolutely no limit to how many extra ends can be played. You can keep blanking extra ends and the game continues forever until someone scores. How do you justify that?



extra innings in baseball. Sometimes 10 or more. How does MLB justify that? Extra time in football. Team that wins the toss has an advantage, Extra time in soccer. Extra games in tennis before last set is won in event of a tie. Since you obviously like to research, I will let you find the other 5 plus examples.

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01-05-22 08:36PM
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quote:
Originally posted by decade


extra innings in baseball. Sometimes 10 or more. How does MLB justify that? Extra time in football. Team that wins the toss has an advantage, Extra time in soccer. Extra games in tennis before last set is won in event of a tie. Since you obviously like to research, I will let you find the other 5 plus examples.



I have zero problem with any sport playing extra time to decide a winner. None. Much better than an arbitrary decision to “give” the win to either team based on not playing it out. Play to win.

Just noticed you replied to curling lips not me. Still agree.

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01-05-22 08:38PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hogged again
The LSFE asterisk is not points on the scoreboard.

Almost all curling scoreboards, whether online or actual physical ones installed on the venue, marks who has LSFE. My proposal is basically saying that this LSFE mark is worth minus 0.5 point (or rather, the team without LSFE mark is awarded 0.5 point).

I admit that I don't know much about other sports, but I don't believe they mark who won the coin toss on their scoreboards.

Last edited by curlingclips on 01-05-22 at 08:44PM

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01-05-22 09:01PM
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How about this…in the extra end, all team members throw only one stone each instead of two?

Or how about the teams go to opposite ends and throw stones at each other’s end simultaneously? And yes, you can try to hit the other stone that’s in motion.

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01-05-22 09:18PM
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How about to break the tie you give the win to the team with the most time left? They were after all more efficient and averaged more points per minute? Deciding games on minutiae is silly.
I once saw a curling game decided by the 2 skips playing a game of pool instead of going out on the ice. I'd do that before letting an asterisk decide.

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01-05-22 09:34PM
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How about leave things as is???
Or, should baseball teams that throw the most strikes win a tie game? Or a hockey team with the most saves??? Or a football team with the most first downs.
A golfer with the least amount of putts??
Makes the same amount of sense.
Curling is a 8-10 end game. Shorter if your lucky, or unlucky. Longer if your tied. What a concept!!!!

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01-05-22 10:05PM
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No, leave it be. Next thing we know, the sports Powers That Be will be making the Kentucky Derby 7 furlongs, the Preakness 5, the Belmont 10 . . .

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01-05-22 10:10PM
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quote:
Originally posted by guido
How about leave things as is???
Or, should baseball teams that throw the most strikes win a tie game? Or a hockey team with the most saves??? Or a football team with the most first downs.
A golfer with the least amount of putts??
Makes the same amount of sense.
Curling is a 8-10 end game. Shorter if your lucky, or unlucky. Longer if your tied. What a concept!!!!




Again like

Sometimes I’ve been a bit sarcastic or tried attempts at humour here over the years. Even back peddled and apologized..... Occasionally.

However in this instance I can’t remain silent. I know you find that hard to believe.


But Las Vegas is on line 2. They’re asking curling lips and oliviertoisel, please call ASAP they need replacements for the blue man group. Argue with anybody and everybody to make your point until you’re BLUE IN THE FACE. FTLOG just stop. Let it go.

One question. Why?

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01-05-22 10:21PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
One question. Why?

WCF already started the ball rolling with their proposal. They explained their rationale in their paper.

https://worldcurling.org/2021/10/mtv-rule-three/

Personally I think their proposal sucks. I think a curling game should not be decided on a Shootout. That's why I came up with my own proposal.

My proposal also addresses a concern that some have already expressed that LSFE plays too big of a factor than it probably should. One way to temper the significance of LSFE is by attaching a potential downside, by making it a handicap if score is tied after 10 ends.

With the privilege of control at the start of the game, comes the burden to score more points than the opposition in 10 ends to win the game. The team who did not have this privilege, i.e. the team who throws first rock of the game, does not bear this burden, and can win by simply scoring the same number of points in 10 ends.

I don't actually have any power to implement this change. I just like to talk about curling and engage in a thoughtful discussion. I hope you people realize that there's no reason to attack me, nor am I attacking anyone or the integrity of the game itself.

Last edited by curlingclips on 01-05-22 at 10:39PM

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01-05-22 10:34PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

WCF already started the ball rolling with their proposal. They explained their rationale in their paper.

https://worldcurling.org/2021/10/mtv-rule-three/

Personally I think their proposal sucks. I think a curling game should not be decided on a Shootout. That's why I came up with my own proposal.

My proposal also addresses a concern that some have already expressed that LSFE plays too big of a factor than it probably should. One way to temper the significance of LSFE is by attaching a potential downside, by making it a handicap if score is tied after 10 ends.

I don't actually have any power to implement this change. I just like to talk about curling and engage in a thoughtful discussion. I hope you people realize that there's no reason to attack me, nor am I attacking anyone or the integrity of the game itself.




No attacking. But what in the world are You drivelling about?
Other than you ,who is that upset about extra ends to decide a game? Most curling fans like to watch a game and see a winner. Who wants to see a given winner without playing the game? If you respond again I give up.

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01-05-22 10:59PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
Who wants to see a given winner without playing the game?


You do see a game winner with playing the game. It's just that the game finishes in 10 ends instead of 11+.

This proposal is about eliminating extra ends. I'm not proposing to eliminate tiebreaker games, which yes, is a separate topic of discussion that I find fascinating, but that's not what this thread is all about.

Besides, WCF already eliminates tiebreaker games, so there's nothing more to discuss about that idea as a proposal, because it's already been implemented.

(Yes, curling in 2022 Olympics will not have tiebreaker games. This shouldn't be news to you, because we haven't had tiebreaker games in Worlds for a few years now, but 2022 will be the first Olympics without tiebreaker games.)

quote:
If you respond again I give up.

I don't know what you mean by this. This is a forum for discussion. We go back and forth in a civilized manner. Are you saying that I should stop posting on CurlingZone and just go away and never come back?

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01-05-22 11:22PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips





I don't know what you mean by this. This is a forum for discussion. We go back and forth in a civilized manner. Are you saying that I should stop posting on CurlingZone and just go away and never come back?



No one is saying that. Most of us are saying quit taking stones out of our hands. We like to throw rocks. Isn't that the whole idea?

As for tiebreakers, last month we won our first two games in a playdown but lost the next two in tight games, the last an extra end on a picked stone. Luckily the tiebreaker kept us alive and we came into the playoffs seeded last. Won the next three and this old man got a patch and a big event (for me) in March. Glad it was settled on the ice and not by some calculation.

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01-05-22 11:23PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips


You do see a game winner with playing the game. It's just that the game finishes in 10 ends instead of 11+.

This proposal is about eliminating extra ends. I'm not proposing to eliminate tiebreaker games, which yes, is a separate topic of discussion that I find fascinating, but that's not what this thread is all about.

Besides, WCF already eliminates tiebreaker games, so there's nothing more to discuss about that idea as a proposal, because it's already been implemented.

(Yes, curling in 2022 Olympics will not have tiebreaker games. This shouldn't be news to you, because we haven't had tiebreaker games in Worlds for a few years now, but 2022 will be the first Olympics without tiebreaker games.)


I don't know what you mean by this. This is a forum for discussion. We go back and forth in a civilized manner. Are you saying that I should stop posting on CurlingZone and just go away and never come back?



Blah blah blah blah blah. You spew for days and yet you say nothing.

Go back. Watch the games. Stop the verbal diarrhoea. Most curling fans and viewers want to watch the game, see the winner, and not argue with a fool who thinks the winner should be declared by a game coin flip or dtb. Before you say anything else, strap on some curling shoes, go to your closest club, and throw a few rocks instead of sitting on your couch, or maybe sofa or even chesterfield..... wouldn’t get that as not a Canadian....and the discuss curling. You haven’t played. Yes fans and viewers have ideas and opinions, but until you’ve played.....silence.

Good night.

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01-06-22 12:54AM
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You talk to much and think way too much for a non curler...If you were a skip the games would be 6 hours long😬..All us real curlers know the game is decided on the ice.PERIOD

Last edited by Prawnpuller on 01-06-22 at 12:57AM

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