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04-13-20 10:24PM
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nelski
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I get it now. Chase a rock = go after a rock. Don't ignore it and play your own end, get rid of the one they played, or at least make it uncountable.

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04-14-20 12:49AM
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Holy moly, I think you got it! That explains why sometimes chasing is a corner freeze, and sometimes (as implied in the Jones vs Homan biter bar case) it's a takeout!

Here's a fun one: what's a choking shot? I think I've only heard it used with regards to the opposition's corner guard, and the shot usually ends up being a halfway come around that is wide open but "plugs the hole", so to speak.

No example handy, sorry, but I'm sure others have heard this.

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04-14-20 01:05AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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To choke something off generally means to put a rock in a path to block it so that the other team can’t use that path.

For example, if the other team has last rock and has a corner guard, you could draw half burried around the corner guard in the top of the house to block the other team from being able to bury a draw behind the guard and be shot rock. You would be choking off their draw around the guard.

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04-14-20 01:37PM
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Now this is getting a bit more controversial again.

Is there a difference between a hole and a port? Are they interchangeable, or is one typically bigger than the other?

What if the two rocks that form the structure isn't at the same height? One is high on the sheet, one is low, but together they "choke off" (partially, not completely) the draw path all the same.

Obviously this structure can look very different from one ice to the next, depending on how swingy it is, how much the rocks are curling, etc. And you can imagine that when rocks are scattered all over the place, you can probably pick pairs that have the same effect of restricting a draw path in both the high and low side.

So does that fit into the definition of a hole/port, or is there a special name for that structure?

Last edited by curlingclips on 04-14-20 at 03:00PM

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04-14-20 03:41PM
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Manitoba Legend
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
Now this is getting a bit more controversial again.

Is there a difference between a hole and a port? Are they interchangeable, or is one typically bigger than the other?

What if the two rocks that form the structure isn't at the same height? One is high on the sheet, one is low, but together they "choke off" (partially, not completely) the draw path all the same.

Obviously this structure can look very different from one ice to the next, depending on how swingy it is, how much the rocks are curling, etc. And you can imagine that when rocks are scattered all over the place, you can probably pick pairs that have the same effect of restricting a draw path in both the high and low side.

So does that fit into the definition of a hole/port, or is there a special name for that structure?


"Holes" & "Ports" are very similar.
Assuming we're only talking about rocks in front of the rings, the standard definition of a hole = 2 rocks almost or equally parallel to each other with room for a curling rock or more to slide thru. The trick on this definition is that even if there's enough space tor a curling rock to slip thru - even allowing an extra 1/2", the key is the hole may actually not exist, given certain weights and ice-swing.

A port, either natural or staggered assumes the rocks are not parallel to each other. A natural port usually allows for the running stone to curl past the longer stone on its way to destination (or target). The concern on a staggered port is allowing enough space or curl for the running stone to "come off" the port stone closer to the hog-line.

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04-14-20 04:54PM
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Oh and I guess a hole can also be something that you DON'T want to go through, when it's a big enough crotch between two rocks and you're attempting a double takeout. If there is a hole, then your shooter might flash through between the rocks.

Commentators usually have fun with these, joking that mentioning the existence of such a hole will jinx the double takeout attempt.

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04-14-20 06:24PM
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I'm convinced Manitoba legend and curling lips are the same person.

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04-14-20 06:59PM
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I'm rewatching the 2017 Brier final, and I caught a use of "chase" with regards to rocks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlOx4h1ToGs&t=1h46m24s

At 1h46m24s, Koe is discussing putting up a center guard to allow Gushue to sit 3 with hammer.

Kennedy: "What if I'm really precise and I do this?" (bury one in 8 ft behind a high center-ish guard)
Hebert: "He can chase it, Marcus!"
Laing: "He'll chase that all day, yeah!"
Koe: "What don't you guys like about this (center guard), other than he'll sit 3?"

So this fits with the theory so far: you only chase your opponent's very last rock thrown, which is at least partially buried, and the goal is to try to take it out, or outcount it with a corner freeze. In this case they're probably worried about the takeout, since the guard is so high, so even a fully buried rock may not be safe.

I'll update when I find a usage of "chase" when talking about corner freeze, because now I'm not so sure if this is also a possible shot.

Last edited by curlingclips on 04-14-20 at 07:51PM

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04-14-20 09:07PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
I'm convinced Manitoba legend and curling lips are the same person.


Good call!!!

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04-14-20 10:41PM
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I managed to dig this up from 2013 Scotties final:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzLATRp3CxI&t=34m20s

At 34m20s, Linda Moore talked about what Homan learned from her lost against Jones in the round robin, where they gave up a 4-ender.

"They gave up one bad end in that game, one HUGE end, and Rachel realized that you DON'T chase Jennifer Jones around corner guard, you DO keep it open..."

I briefly looked up the game in question, and I don't think I heard anyone talking about chasing rocks, and the shots that Rachel called were takeouts, not corner freezes.

I've heard this rule of thumb from other commentators before, that you shouldn't play a certain way with a corner guard if you don't have hammer, and if I remember correctly, at least some of those involved corner freezes (though I've yet to come up with video evidence for this).

So maybe there are 3 contexts in which "chase" is used.

- [GAME] Scoreboard chasing where you need to generate some points to have a chance to win because you got jumped by a front-runner.

- [END] Chasing around corner guard, which is a very risky style of play for an end when you don't have hammer. Actual shots may be takeouts, may be corner freezes, but either way you're not peeling the corner guard and you're not controlling the 4-foot.

- [SHOT] Chasing the opposition's last thrown rock, which is a takeout.

Does this even sound remotely correct?

Last edited by curlingclips on 04-14-20 at 10:59PM

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04-15-20 03:44AM
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Wow...
Obsessive overanalysis is an understatement here.

This is really a court case, right?

Curlingclips - if you're not a lawyer, you've missed your calling.

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04-15-20 09:55AM
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Can you guys please stop it with the personal attacks? I didn't attack anyone, why are you attacking me? If you don't care to have deeper understanding of the game at this level then stay out of the thread.

I for one would like to understand what Hebert meant when he said "He can chase it, Marcus!", and what Moore meant when she said "you DON'T chase Jennifer Jones around corner guard", etc.

Every Winter Olympics they publish viewers guide that includes explanation of why they're yelling and what it means. I'm just trying to do the same, and hopefully share it by improving the Wikipedia article, at least for neutral and less subjective terms.

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04-15-20 10:13AM
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By the way, speaking of trying to understand what the teams are yelling, it would be nice if we can have line calling quick reference for some of the elite non-English teams.

Obviously we can't do this for every possible language and every possible line calls and their variations, but the big ones like the Swiss Germans "TIAAA!/Zieh!!" example is good enough.

Some of these sound close enough to English, e.g "håll linje" ("hold line" in Swedish), but there are some doozies that I have no idea what they meant.

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04-15-20 10:22AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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You can probably use ‘chase it’ to mean ‘go after it’ in any curling situation. It wouldn’t be wrong to say ‘if we draw top 4 with our first rock do we think they’ll chase it (hit it) or throw the corner guard?’ I don’t know any curling term authorities so as a general rule, if it sounds like a phrase could apply to a particular situation, it probably does. Most curlers aren't going to argue with you, they’re usually pretty easy going.

Last edited by DrB on 04-15-20 at 10:25AM

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04-15-20 11:22AM
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These are probably terms that are interchangeable, but just in case they aren't, I'm going to ask:

Is there a difference between "lying 3" and "sitting 3"?

Is there a difference between "peel" and "rip"?

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04-15-20 12:06PM
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No.

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04-15-20 12:42PM
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Okay. I was thinking maybe you "peel layers off" and you "rip things open", so they're both the same when you only have one guard, but if you have double center guards, then you can peel just the top one, or rip it open and get rid of both in one shot with a double peel.

But no, I have no proof of this, so you're probably right that rip and peel are interchangeable.

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04-15-20 01:43PM
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Manitoba Legend
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
These are probably terms that are interchangeable, but just in case they aren't, I'm going to ask:

Is there a difference between "lying 3" and "sitting 3"?

Is there a difference between "peel" and "rip"?



I'll prolly start another round of Hubba-Hubba with my response but I believe there is a distinct difference between "Peel" & "Rip"

Technically, they both mean the same.

However, I've noticed over the years when a team is up some and defending a small to moderate lead - the term "Peel" is used most often.

When a team is trailing - but still forced to "peel" they often use the more curt term "rip it" in a clear demonstration of frustration - cuz when you are down some, and "ripping" you are definitely in a downside position - and most of the top curlers, front-enders in particular are expressing frustration by no longer being in control of the match.

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04-16-20 12:13AM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
Can you guys please stop it with the personal attacks? I didn't attack anyone, why are you attacking me? If you don't care to have deeper understanding of the game at this level then stay out of the thread.


Sorry, bud, but this is a public message board - so if you post messages on it, they are open to be commented on without you dictating what the comments must be.
That said, I've seen no 'personal attacks'. Of course, I'm not one for 'political correctness', either, as P.C. has done far more harm than good to society. What we've posted are simply comments which reflect our perspective on the content of this thread.

I see that some people have commented on your collection of posts because the number of posts you post, the level of incredibly minute detail you reach for, and the degree of repetition, are extremely uncommon on this forum. I, personally, have never seen anything like it here, or on any message board. Your level of extreme 'nit-picking' and daily delving into further and further minute detail reminds me of a desperate lawyer trying a court case.
I'm not telling you that you must stop posting this stuff - you have every right in the world to post it - just as we have a right to comment on your posts... I'm simply commenting on the nature of your posts. I find it extremely obsessive. Some others have said the same. It might be something for you to consider contemplating - but that's obviously up to you.

As for 'having a deeper understanding' of the game'... I believe it's very safe to say that the huge majority of posters here possess a very deep understanding of the game - and have acquired this understanding and knowledge without being obsessive about minute details to the degree you're being.
I, personally, cannot see how you can possibly enjoy the beauty of curling when you watch - because it certainly seems that you are entirely focussed only on things like very precise and specific definitions of terms. It's similar to when one is concentrating on photographing an event (be it a sporting event, a wedding, a concert, etc.) - when one is focussing so much on taking good photos of the event, one misses out on simply enjoying the event.

I hope that you can, at least eventually, simply relax and enjoy and appreciate curling for the skillful, strategic, beautiful game that it is without over-analyzing every minute detail.

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04-16-20 01:57AM
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You can help me enjoy the game more by pointing me in the direction of a game/end that utilizes the Christmas Tree structure to great effect.

I've read the written description, but I've never seen a picture diagram. I can try to picture what a Christmas Tree looks like in my mind, but for the life of me I can't remember ever seeing anything like it in any of the games I've seen.

If anything, I usually see an upside down Christmas Tree, as seen from the skip's perspective (e.g. Jones vs Homan, 2013 Scotties, 1v2, 2nd end https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtxYtaf0JBg ).

PS: I've never watched any Colleen Jones game, and I think she made this phrase famous on TV, so presumably she plays this style a lot.

PS: My memory came back and I recalled this double canopy half Christmas Tree that Fujisawa & Sidorova built, but it was not by design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbVhUMWYb-0

Last edited by curlingclips on 04-16-20 at 02:27AM

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04-16-20 08:14AM
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Christmas trees are not usually set up on purpose. They often come from a team goofing up a draw call or hitting and getting an unfavourable roll. Team Goo seems to use these term a lot.
H
H
H
Where H is a rock would be a example. Usually in front of the house.

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04-16-20 10:12AM
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imho the purpose of a Xmas in curling is

to build up a wall of guards, protecting a shot rock from both being chipped out AND preventing opponent from using angle raises to get to the said shot rock.

Xmas trees prevent angle raises into the shot stone, pure & simple.

Of course, one can always start chopping away at a Xmas tree, but it usually takes two or more successful "rips" to chop the tree - at the same time - the tree builder can plant new "trees" by replacing guards at the right points of the ice.

At one point the pursuing team (team facing the crisis of a Xmas tree build) may decide to abandon tree removal and start pin-hunting - if the pin is accessible.

If the pin is accessible - pin-hunting can be a disaster, especially if you can't hide your stone in the area of the button/pin. . . . but desperation tells you to do it anyways!

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04-16-20 01:34PM
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unfortunately CZ destroyed the layout of my H's

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04-16-20 01:49PM
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What the Xmas tree does, is to prevent the opportune roll, while at the same time making a hit quite difficult. It also makes double/triple angles disadvantageous. The rocks are visible, so "teasers" but don't leave opportunity for great outcome. It is a good situation for the team whose rocks created the formation.
***H
**H
*H
Freezes also leave little room for error. It takes oppositions misses (or half shots) to get this formation.

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04-16-20 01:51PM
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quote:
Originally posted by decade
unfortunately CZ destroyed the layout of my H's

It's not CZ's fault, that's how it goes on most internet forums. You need to use what is commonly called "fixed-width formatting" if you're trying to draw with text (which is probably not a good idea to begin with if you can avoid it).

CZ uses BBCode, as far as I can tell, so you use [*CODE] (insert text here) [/CODE].

Note that I had to insert an extra * there because I wanted to show you how it's done, without actually doing it. When you want to actually do it, you just remove the *.

Your H's with fixed-width formatting looks like this:
code:
H H H

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D: Korean Curling Championships
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