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| 09-25-22 07:10PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
it hurts your argument
I promise that I will share ALL comments I can find, whether it hurts or helps my argument. I may not be able to find all comments, and I may stop if it eventually becomes too many to share them all here.
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| 09-25-22 08:03PM |
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Maggie
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2020
Location:
Posts: 156 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Tell me how the rule differs from the old rule. The decision is always the non offending teams and the options are exactly the same as the previous rulebook. The wording has changed but the rule hasn't. Nothing happens until the non offending team makes a decision.
The rule has changed.
The decision is only the non offending team’s if it’s to their advantage . Otherwise the rock is automatically removed without any input from the non offending team.
Simply, if the burnt rock cause an advantage to the non offending team, they get a say. If not , the rock comes off.
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| 09-25-22 09:35PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Read the rule again, it is always the non offending teams choice to remove the rock or leave it in play as is;
"unless the non-
offending team considers it an advantage "
The non offending team can consider it an advantage anytime it happens as it is their judgement whether it is an advantage or not. The rule has been reworded but it is the same results.
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| 09-25-22 10:22PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Read the rule again
Here's yet another way to put it.
[OLD RULE] After X, choose to do A, B, or C.
[NEW RULE] After X, must do A, unless Y, in which case choose B or C.
So yes, all A, B, or C can happen after X. Also yes, those are 2 very different rules.
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| 09-26-22 12:10AM |
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Maggie
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2020
Location:
Posts: 156 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
Here's yet another way to put it.
[OLD RULE] After X, choose to do A, B, or C.
[NEW RULE] After X, must do A, unless Y, in which case choose B or C.
So yes, all A, B, or C can happen after X. Also yes, those are 2 very different rules.
That’s far too cerebral for dug less. It’s been explained ad nauseum and he doesn’t want to understand.
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| 09-26-22 12:27AM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by Maggie
That’s far too cerebral for dug less. It’s been explained ad nauseum and he doesn’t want to understand.
I'm just trying to use various abstractions to separate the issue from the sport of curling, something which I have no doubt dugless is very passionate about.
That's why I brought up deferring to the gods by using coin flips. That's why I abstracted the rules to use A-B-Cs.
I have no doubt that dugless is cerebral enough to understand the difference between the old and new rules, if it weren't for the blinding effect of passion.
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| 09-26-22 04:25AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Of course Courtney hated the old rule, since it was what happened at the Olympics with her team and how Rachel was skewered for her decision that led to the rewording. As for too cerebral Mags, the new wording still has three choices, all made by the non offending team, and all the non offending team has to say is " leave it, it's fine" like is done in 99.9 percent of the cases and any discussion ends. No theory, no probabilities, just reality.
I might also point out, these rules are for general play not officiated play.
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| 09-26-22 04:59AM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
I might also point out, these rules are for general play not officiated play.
Incorrect. As the Summary of Changes document says ( https://www.curling.ca/files/2022/08/rules-summary.pdf ), this new burned rock rule is both in 9(4)(a) General Play and 9(3)(a) Officiated Play.
It's true that I don't have a copy of the 2022-2026 Officiated Play, though, so I haven't personally confirmed this with my own eyes, but I don't think it would contradict what the Summary of Changes document says.
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| 09-26-22 05:05AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Straight out of the new rulebook
The Rules of Curling for General Play are not intended to be used in
conjunction with officiating. If a curling governing body having
jurisdiction over an event(s) wishes to make this rule book applicable
to a specific competition(s) while also utilizing umpires, they should
also put in place a set of guidelines outlining the authority of the
umpires relative to the implementation of penalties.
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| 09-26-22 11:22AM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
That is your perogative, unfortunate as it is, as it hurts your argument. The thing is curlers, coaches and commentators will say the same thing. I know why they reworded the rule but that is for a different discussion.
Are you blue in the face yet?
How many times has he started threads, answered his own question 10 times, and then argued with posters giving their answers and opinions.
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| 09-26-22 11:38AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Unfortunately he doesn't play the game so all his ideas are abstract, such as coin flips and probabilities which don't apply. He doesn't see that the rule is the same, just worded different so you don't look like a dick when you pull a rock.
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| 09-26-22 05:40PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
so you don't look like a dick when you pull a rock
So you agree with me that this rule change will stop people from saying that the non-offending team is a dick for pulling a burned rock?
Good! Because that's the first step towards eradicating this entitlement towards forgiveness! Once people realize that it's unacceptable to call others dicks for pulling rocks, they will gradually warm up to the idea that not only is it acceptable for others to pull rocks, it's actually what the rule explicitly requires.
I think we can all acknowledge that the problem is pervasive. That's why Curling Canada made this drastic change of literally rewriting the rules. I don't think we can expect a sudden change in one day. It will take time, but we will get there by 2026, I'm sure.
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| 09-26-22 05:58PM |
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Prawnpuller
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2013
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 97 |
quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
Are you blue in the face yet?
How many times has he started threads, answered his own question 10 times, and then argued with posters giving their answers and opinions.
Unfortunately Clips likely has not heard the old adage “ it is better to remain silent and thought to be a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt”.
I would like ML haunting these forums more than this guy..At least Legend played the game so had a little credibility.
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| 09-26-22 07:04PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Good! Because that's the first step towards eradicating this entitlement towards forgiveness! Once people realize that it's unacceptable to call others dicks for pulling rocks, they will gradually warm up to the idea that not only is it acceptable for others to pull rocks, it's actually what the rule explicitly requires.
I think we can all acknowledge that the problem is pervasive.
No, I don't agree with you at all, but I don't expect you to understand because you've never played the game. As for the problem being pervasive, your lack of experience means you have no idea how often it happens, which is not very often.
The rule hasn't changed, it was just reworded, the fact that you can't comprehend that is sad but has come to be expected here. The fact you read a rulebook and try to apply it absolutely without any experience puts you at a disadvantage. Find a club in your area and try the game please.
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| 09-26-22 07:20PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Find a club in your area and try the game please.
This has absolutely nothing to do with me.
Some 13 year old who has never curled and tried to curl for the first time would agree with my reading of the rule book.
A million people who has never curled and tried to curl for the first time would agree with my reading of the rule book.
There's a reason why Curling Canada chose those words. They want people to read it in a very specific, no uncertain terms.
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| 09-26-22 07:26PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Actually they want people to comprehend the rules. The bottom line is the rule has not changed, the options haven't changed, the team that decides what happens haven't changed as has your ability to understand the rules haven't changed.
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| 09-26-22 07:38PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
As I said, this has absolutely nothing to do with me, but I will publicly make this promise: once WCF changes its burned rock rule to be more in line with Curling Canada's 2022-2026 rule, I will step into a curling club within a year and participate in a Learn to Curl or similar program. I will even post videos for proof.
Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with me, but if it makes you happy, I will make that promise.
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| 09-27-22 07:33PM |
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hailstone
Swing Artist
Registered: May 2018
Location:
Posts: 407 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
Old rule: After X, choose to do A, B, or C
New rule: After X, do A, unless Y, then choose to do A, B, or C
Y is wholly at the discretion of the non-offending team. Their decision on whether something is advantageous to them is up to them, and will not be overruled by anybody. Therefore, "do A, unless Y, then" can be essentially erased in practice.
All Curling Canada has done is register their preference as to how the rule is applied, but the players can still do the exact same things that they've done before.
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| 11-09-23 04:26AM |
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dordle12
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2023
Location:
Posts: 17 |
Your essay is extremely beneficial, and the substance is excellent. I have read many articles, but yours left a lasting impression on me; thank you for sharing. You can play: run 3 to relax, or pass the time!
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| 12-14-23 06:08AM |
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gniordr
Knee-Slider
Registered: Dec 2023
Location:
Posts: 2 |
My love for this site goes much beyond what words can express. Quite a remarkable blog. This blog proves that everybody with an internet connection phrazle should be able to read it.
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