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02-05-16 09:58PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
Simple solution. Any fabric, any material, any hair, any technique. Who can figure it out the best. No rules since there have not been any "qualifications" for all of time. You will see so many versions of sweeping and teams switching every game. Or just pick one broom, say a Hammer. Everyone has to use that one broom. Then the next event everyone has to use hair. Then Hardline, then BP, etc.. All teams have to buy every broom out there. Manufacturers are happy they are selling brooms to every team in the World. No rules, no limits. technique rules the day. Throw in corn for fun?
JH
tongue firmly in cheek
old guy with a hair broom to keep me from falling over
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02-06-16 12:29AM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote: Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
And what is wrong with using 2 hair brooms, or 2 fabric brooms, or one of each? Again, it's not the fabric.
Hair brooms, especially ones with thinned out hair are able to bottom out the wood onto the ice to allow the brush to be used like a hard insert.
Rumours of teams treating the brooms pre-game similar to the days of corn and 7up. Taking shears to the brushes and thinning them out to get the insert effect.
Everyone is looking for an edge to win and now that they're all testing brushes in practice, they're learning so much about materials and equipment that they didn't know in the past.
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02-06-16 04:18AM |
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On The Nose
Drawmaster
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608 |
quote: Originally posted by Gerry
Hair brooms, especially ones with thinned out hair are able to bottom out the wood onto the ice to allow the brush to be used like a hard insert.
A former elite level curler (and multiple Brier winner) told me essentially the same thing the other day about the hair brooms.
In addition, he said that in his team's own personal testing of brooms/sweeping, where a rock, with a small amount of regular, traditional sweeping, would curl about 4 feet on a draw to the Button, the same shot could be curled right off the sheet using a certain sweeping technique.
Also, he said that they could also 'stop' a rock by sweeping a certain way, and gave the example of a top 4 foot weight shot being stopped before the Hog Line by employing a certain sweeping technique.
He added that this was crazy.
I agree.
He also told me that what is most surprising to him is that no-one figured out all of these sweeping effects before now.
At the same time, though, he said that he cannot believe that employing these new sweeping techniques would have helped him or his contemporaries curl any better overall - because these guys were curling 90% to 95% pretty consistently, and it's quite difficult to imagine curling at a higher percentage than that on a regular basis.
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02-06-16 09:36AM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
quote: Originally posted by Gerry
Hair brooms, especially ones with thinned out hair are able to bottom out the wood onto the ice to allow the brush to be used like a hard insert.
Rumours of teams treating the brooms pre-game similar to the days of corn and 7up. Taking shears to the brushes and thinning them out to get the insert effect.
Everyone is looking for an edge to win and now that they're all testing brushes in practice, they're learning so much about materials and equipment that they didn't know in the past.
I guess my point is, even if they are doctoring the brooms, it will have much much less affect if they're forced to sweep within the rules of back and forth in front, not on a 45-90 degree angle directly in front snow plowing. Changing the rule will limit the affect of any fabric.
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02-06-16 10:21AM |
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tapfreeze
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2015
Location:
Posts: 22 |
quote: Originally posted by Gerry
Rumours of teams treating the brooms pre-game similar to the days of corn and 7up. Taking shears to the brushes and thinning them out to get the insert effect.
Anyone who does this and gets caught is risking not only forfeiture of that game, but to what extent would the overall fallout be for that team?
Doctoring any equipment including hair brushes is illegal under the brushing moratorium:
- No modified, custom-made or homemade brushing equipment will be allowed on the field of play. This does not apply to branding / cosmetic related modifications nor does it apply to compliant brush heads that have been re-conditioned or re-covered for sale.
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02-06-16 10:40AM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote: Originally posted by tapfreeze
Anyone who does this and gets caught is risking not only forfeiture of that game, but to what extent would the overall fallout be for that team?
Doctoring any equipment including hair brushes is illegal under the brushing moratorium:
- No modified, custom-made or homemade brushing equipment will be allowed on the field of play. This does not apply to branding / cosmetic related modifications nor does it apply to compliant brush heads that have been re-conditioned or re-covered for sale.
Correct, but good luck catching anyone. This is one reason why hair brushes are next to be banned from the game.
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02-06-16 10:49AM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
For anyone who thinks it's technique only, why are we seeing so many teams try different materials, brushes and push the limit on what can be used?
Brad Gushue gave up more sponsorship money from an established company to go to Hardline because he believe the brushes were better and could win that money back. If it was technique only, he'd have stayed where he was.
Why are teams now pushing the limit with hair brushes? If technique was good enough to make miracles happen, teams would stick with the current synthetic fabrics.
The Hardline brushes in their current format with the Tour elite fabric on the brush seem to still be the best fabric brush on the market based on feedback I get from many of the players.
But you see many of the teams who regularly use these Hardline brushes now using two hairs on hits?
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02-06-16 01:58PM |
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gmay48
Hitting Paint
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 118 |
just watched some 2 person stick curling with no sweeping allowed between the hog lines. this broom controversy could be limited if they let the teams do whatever they want between the hog lines but no sweeping from the hog to the tee line. just thinking outside the box
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02-06-16 09:15PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
how about changing the square inches of the broom head allowed to touch the ice to reduce the scratching, or adding some minerals to the ice to harden it?
Making rules on which direction you can sweep doesn't solve the problem, which is why they outlawed then rescinded the ban on corner sweeping and snow plowing.
Just spit balling ideas here while watching the women's draw where they are blatantly using the single sweeper technique and still missing shots. I wonder how percentages have changed over the past 10 years, and if they show any significant increase that could be attributed to sweeping?
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02-07-16 06:13AM |
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On The Nose
Drawmaster
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608 |
quote: Originally posted by Gerry
For anyone who thinks it's technique only, why are we seeing so many teams try different materials, brushes and push the limit on what can be used?
Brad Gushue gave up more sponsorship money from an established company to go to Hardline because he believe the brushes were better and could win that money back. If it was technique only, he'd have stayed where he was.
Why are teams now pushing the limit with hair brushes? If technique was good enough to make miracles happen, teams would stick with the current synthetic fabrics.
The Hardline brushes in their current format with the Tour elite fabric on the brush seem to still be the best fabric brush on the market based on feedback I get from many of the players.
But you see many of the teams who regularly use these Hardline brushes now using two hairs on hits?
Well... hair brooms have been around for decades, made the same way they are made today... but only now are these hair brooms being used to make rocks do unprecedented things. The difference between the use of hair brooms 20 years ago and the use of hair brooms today is the sweeping technique.
The same can be said of the 'Performance' oval synthetics, and even the Norway Pad and the EQ - we did not see those pads make rocks do crazy things until basically this season, which is when the radically different sweeping techniques were employed.
Sure, maybe different materials can do different things (or have different degrees of effect), but the bottom line is still that we didn't see these crazy effects on rocks until they began using the radically different sweeping techniques.
Also, it seems that SCRATCHING the ice is a major part of what they are doing now - using anything hard on the brush head to scratch the ice. This is not sweeping, obviously.
Surely, the WCF and Curling Canada can make a rule against scratching - and enforce it - if they make the effort.
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"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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02-07-16 08:27AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
The WCF and Curling Canada will never admit it is the technique because then it will mean they have to admit their broom moratorium was a sham.
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02-07-16 09:57AM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote: Originally posted by On The Nose
Also, it seems that SCRATCHING the ice is a major part of what they are doing now - using anything hard on the brush head to scratch the ice. This is not sweeping, obviously.
Surely, the WCF and Curling Canada can make a rule against scratching - and enforce it - if they make the effort.
This is what is being done. They're banning materials that scratch the ice.
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02-07-16 10:38AM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
repeated whining doesnt make you right ...
loved you on the republican debates
Fresca : Everytime someone post something contrary to your opinion, you insult them.
Get a life and check if you have not missed your last ECT treatment.
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02-07-16 11:31AM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
lol^^^^. not familiar with shoch therapy - whats your experience ?
steski says Harts nicname is the " sheriff " re broom cheating
good for rich
You are correct on one point. Rich was one of the bullies in charge.
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02-07-16 11:35AM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
quote: Originally posted by Itsjustagame
You are correct on one point. Rich was one of the bullies in charge.
Here is a link to a video. When HIS sponsor comes up with new equipment, Richard says how exciting and wonderful this is for the curling community. But when somebody else comes up with a new technology, he becomes the sheriff?
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02-07-16 12:04PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
Isn't it ironic, don't you think?
quote: Originally posted by Itsjustagame
Here is a link to a video. When HIS sponsor comes up with new equipment, Richard says how exciting and wonderful this is for the curling community. But when somebody else comes up with a new technology, he becomes the sheriff?
Yes isn't it ironic he's the sheriff? Not doubting his character, but he was part of the smear campaign that started it all. Things that make you go hmmmm.
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02-07-16 02:55PM |
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Islander76
Knee-Slider
Registered: Feb 2016
Location:
Posts: 2 |
Re WCF Broom Summit
The draw of the Olympic gold metal is too much to not try and figure out an advantage over others. Officiating sweeping technique is too subjective. The only answer I see is show up to a Curl Canada, WCF , European, Asian event with your broom handle. You will be issued an legal head for your handle. Turn it in after every game otherwise tampering good take place.
Too bad it's not such a gentlemans sport any more.
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02-07-16 02:57PM |
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RandyPark
Knee-Slider
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5 |
For the past year, my company has been developing an instrument - a robot, if you like - to measure the effectiveness of sweeping. Originally it was to measure the change in friction from sweeping i.e. how far can you drag the rock. Recently, because of the rock steering issue, we've added a new mode which launches rocks very consistently to allow comparison of the various sweeping techniques ( video at http://www.sweeptracker.ca ).
In working with several teams, the new sweeping techniques are clearly effective; the type of broom makes some difference, but not nearly as much as technique (at least comparing various synthetics, and hair heads that are not scraping the ice).
I'm in my 50's, been curling 4 years, and started using some of these techniques. As a recreational curler, I like the idea that I can help my fellow recreational level players make more shots, and that they can help me make more shots. It levels the playing field to some extent, when a sweeper can hold a slightly off target hit, or can bury a draw a few inches more.
And it doesn't take a 200 pound body builder to do this. We've observed 120 pound, 19 year old women holding the line very effectively using this technique.
On the other hand, speaking with an experienced curler this morning, he says the old rule needs to apply, that new techniques are basically dumping debris in front of the rock, that's what makes them work. Who knows for sure...
Even if the rule says you have to sweep all across the path, I think it is still possible to get some of the effect (depending on exactly what is causing the behaviour.) One approach would be to vary the pressure in the stroke, so that there is more pressure on one side, and less on the other side of the stroke. Tricky to do, and admittedly not as effective as just sweeping on one side, but still possible for those willing to put in some practice time perfecting it.
And there definitely needs to be some equipment rules. The difficulty with the "not damaging the ice" criteria is that even if you can magnify the ice surface enough to see damage, a very large challenge, judging "damage" is still subjective. The only practical approach may be the "every manufacturer must use this one approved fabric" method.
Curling is a great sport, I'm loving it, and there are great people. Hang in there everyone, and be nice, we'll get through this!
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02-07-16 03:29PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote: Originally posted by Flat Hat
how about changing the square inches of the broom head allowed to touch the ice to reduce the scratching, or adding some minerals to the ice to harden it?
You should not add minerals to the ice. An Ice Maker will slap you for suggesting it. The minerals float to teh top in the frozen matrix, and make the ice slow. Ice must be pure
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02-07-16 10:21PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote: Originally posted by curlky
You should not add minerals to the ice. An Ice Maker will slap you for suggesting it. The minerals float to teh top in the frozen matrix, and make the ice slow. Ice must be pure
LOL! Yeah, probably will get read the riot act for the suggestion, but we used tap water for years and most clubs still do. The upside of a 15 second draw is there is less time for the broom voodoo to muck with the shot.
If hair brooms are making the rock steerable, then we need to do something.
By the way, watching the US nationals, and seeing misses and no odd rock behavior even with the directional sweeping techniques makes me wonder if the propaganda video published at the start of this mess hasn't made everyone see behavior that really isn't there. Is this really that serious a problem?
Last edited by Flat Hat on 02-07-16 at 10:45PM
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02-07-16 10:40PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
both teams averaged 92%
last week in wpg Matt Dunstone team averaded 97%
" is this really a serious problem ? ". guess
Is it happeing, of course. Is it as serious as people are saying - making rocks 'back up' and 'slow down' and curl 4' more than they should. Not from what I've seen.
Good percentages for those teams to average, but is better curling really shooting 80's instead of 90's? A rising tide floats all boats - it just makes a miss that much worse when everyone else is shooting 90% or better. Of course that makes it pretty boring, kind of like the pre-free guard days of blanking every end.
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02-07-16 10:54PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote: Originally posted by RandyPark
For the past year, my company has been developing an instrument - a robot, if you like - to measure the effectiveness of sweeping. Originally it was to measure the change in friction from sweeping i.e. how far can you drag the rock. Recently, because of the rock steering issue, we've added a new mode which launches rocks very consistently to allow comparison of the various sweeping techniques ( video at http://www.sweeptracker.ca ).
Really cool videos and technology! Do you use the red lights to indicate the broom to the device?
Do you have sweeping machines yet? I think that having both done by a consistent machine is the only way to truly determine the effectiveness of materials and sweeping techniques.
Anyway, good work and cool implementation, something that any club could set up easily without all the rails and such that previous devices have used.
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02-07-16 11:29PM |
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JB42
Drawmaster
Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621 |
Nobody can say that the semi or the finals of the Tankard were boring.
Instead what were were seeing was an even higher premium being placed on strategy.
I have so far been 100% against directional brushing and 'joy sticking' the rock. And I am not saying that I've changed my mind. But I am saying that the one ice product was truly fabulous this weekend.
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