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BumperUp
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 15

quote:
Originally posted by nelsosi

They've now lost 12-1, 10-0, 14-5 and 15-0.
I really don't mean to sound like a jerk, but how did this team qualify for the Championship?



They didn't. The US junior women's champions couldn't play because of worlds. They offered the spot to the other team that didn't qualify out of challenge round but they turned it down. This team was the only team left that signed up for challenge round.

Maybe not the best venue for them.

Last edited by BumperUp on 02-14-17 at 04:42PM

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Old Post 02-14-17 04:28PM
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misty1
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Registered: Sep 2011
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it maybe would have been a better choice not to offer another spot at all. if you end up with an odd number of teams then so be it.

there's something to be said for getting experience but this team is so obviously not ready for this level yet

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Old Post 02-14-17 04:43PM
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BDure
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Vienna, VA
Posts: 90

quote:
Originally posted by misty1
it maybe would have been a better choice not to offer another spot at all. if you end up with an odd number of teams then so be it.

there's something to be said for getting experience but this team is so obviously not ready for this level yet



The Wood/Nguyen record this season:

Crestwood Ladies Fall Classic (Nguyen / Wood / Cai / Ann)
L 1-5
L 2-8
L 6-9
L 3-10

Driving Force Abbotsford (Nguyen / Wood / Stephenson / Moore)
L 1-11 (to Bingyu Wang, so that's understandable)
L 0-11
L 2-9

Challenge Round (Wood / Nguyen / Stephenson / Moore)
L 4-13 (Rhyme)
L 4-8 (Dubberstein)
L 3-14 (Potter)

The Championship lineup is Wood / Stephenson / Moore / Mendoza

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Old Post 02-14-17 05:33PM
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2013
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Wood should not be at Nationals but don't blame them. This is just another USCA fiasco

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Old Post 02-14-17 06:02PM
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nelsosi
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 418

quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs
Wood should not be at Nationals but don't blame them.

No, not blaming them at all. I asked the question because I was baffled at how a team so overmatched could end up Nationals.

Potentially dumb question (forgive a Canadian's ignorance of USAC). How does the Challenge Round work? Can any team enter it? Are there criteria that have to be met to enter?

As a side note, was nice to be able to stream games today while I worked at home

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Old Post 02-14-17 06:16PM
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courtneyshaw
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30

Every team interested in playing at Nationals enters the field, and a certain number or teams qualify by order of merit points. The leftover teams play in a single challenge round event. There are some discretionary picks for the high performance program too.

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Old Post 02-15-17 12:03AM
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sussman
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2011
Location:
Posts: 25

I feel for the Wood team and while I hate seeing 15-0 scores at a national bonspiel, they're not quitting and I like seeing new faces in these things. Looks like kept it close with Christensen for a little while.

Women's national depth is a problem and the solution is to not turn back willing participants. In fact hopefully this empowers more women to form teams and sign up to play

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Old Post 02-15-17 09:24AM
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biterbar
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
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Posts: 551

The two newer members of Team Wood did an interview earlier in the week. They have been curling less than two years and started after seeing curling on the Beatles movie "Help" and searched to see if there were any opportunities in California. It was a delightful interview and they are good ambassadors of our sport.

I will be streaming their game today but will not make any comments on their worthiness of competing here. They followed the rules and are participating here on their own dime, so more power to them.

More good news is they are coming from California, a new area and may spike an interest moving forward.

Good luck Team Wood.

__________________
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Old Post 02-15-17 10:08AM
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troll
Knee-Slider

Registered: Feb 2017
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Posts: 5

What a lot of people fail to realize or take note of, especially outside the US, is that there are a ton of amazing American curlers around but most don't want to waste their time and their own money for a dead end. They've come up as competitive juniors but the current HPP/USCA/USOC competitive setup has 0 chance of a happy ending for them. They won't gain much of any OOM points so even if they'd win Nationals it'd end there. And their chances of winning Nationals are slim when the HPP stacks their own team and odds. Instead they are their club's and state's top curlers and are very successful in bonspiels around the country but you may have never heard their names.

Point being that the US doesn't lack depth on either Women's or Men's sides. The US lacks a system that encourages these talented individuals to want to compete.

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Old Post 02-15-17 11:56AM
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troll
Knee-Slider

Registered: Feb 2017
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I know you're all trying to be nice about Wood and Sobering but having both at Nationals makes a mockery of the event. It's supposed to be the USA's top-level event and you essentially allow "pay and go" teams to be a part of it. Why would anyone watch Shuster pound Sobering into submission live or even online?

p.s. I know Sobering earned their place but that's a statement of the inherent problems with the so-called Challenge Round.

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Old Post 02-15-17 12:35PM
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biterbar
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 551

quote:
Originally posted by troll
What a lot of people fail to realize or take note of, especially outside the US, is that there are a ton of amazing American curlers around but most don't want to waste their time and their own money for a dead end. They've come up as competitive juniors but the current HPP/USCA/USOC competitive setup has 0 chance of a happy ending for them. They won't gain much of any OOM points so even if they'd win Nationals it'd end there. And their chances of winning Nationals are slim when the HPP stacks their own team and odds. Instead they are their club's and state's top curlers and are very successful in bonspiels around the country but you may have never heard their names.

Point being that the US doesn't lack depth on either Women's or Men's sides. The US lacks a system that encourages these talented individuals to want to compete.



I agree there is talent out there and that many see it as a dead end, but I think most don't have the time to commit with families and full time jobs. These curlers probably seldom throw a rock outside of leagues and bonspiels but we see them making "bonspiel shots" time and time again.

With practice and coaching are they among the countries best? Maybe a handful are, but I'm not sure they would sway the results the USA is currently getting at worlds.

__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

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Old Post 02-15-17 12:40PM
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AlanMacNeill
Drawmaster

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 904

Perhaps the game has gone professsional.

If that is the case, however, then there needs to be a split amongt how the game is run...

The USCA's actions frequently make it appear that they care more about the ~5 teams at the top internationally than they do about the 39,980 other curlers in the country. And that may be appropriate, when you consider that a majority of their attention, and a goodly chunk of their funding, descends from the Olympics, which are no longer amateur in any way, shape or form.

However, they should realize that and allow another organization to manage the *game*, or spin off the "Professional" Curling to another group, much as golf has the USGA vs the PGA...the two coexist very well together.

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Old Post 02-15-17 01:07PM
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 756

quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Perhaps the game has gone professsional.

If that is the case, however, then there needs to be a split amongt how the game is run...

The USCA's actions frequently make it appear that they care more about the ~5 teams at the top internationally than they do about the 39,980 other curlers in the country. And that may be appropriate, when you consider that a majority of their attention, and a goodly chunk of their funding, descends from the Olympics, which are no longer amateur in any way, shape or form.

However, they should realize that and allow another organization to manage the *game*, or spin off the "Professional" Curling to another group, much as golf has the USGA vs the PGA...the two coexist very well together.




Spot on!

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Old Post 02-15-17 01:42PM
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troll
Knee-Slider

Registered: Feb 2017
Location:
Posts: 5

My issue is hearing/reading people say that the USA lacks talent. The talent is in the USA; talent enough to be way more competitive than some of the current "Nationals" teams.

There are a ton of American curlers that could easily compete with the likes of USA HPP teams if they also received $$$ for flights, hotel rooms and entry fees. Players that would put the work in if they were handed the resources. Wasn't the initial HPP camp #s a few years ago close to 100 applicants?

It doesn't help that the current Nationals format is only serving to support the lack-of-talent misconception. Might as well just invite the HPP teams for a national best 3 out of 5 playdown. That would be more exciting for live and online viewers.

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Old Post 02-15-17 01:56PM
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AlanMacNeill
Drawmaster

Registered: Sep 2011
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Oh, give it time...it'll get there....

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Old Post 02-15-17 01:59PM
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sussman
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2011
Location:
Posts: 25

While I understand the sentiment that some players are discouraged from signing up if they have no mathematical path to worlds, the national champion still represents USA in the Champions Cup, whose field is as tough if not tougher than a world field

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Old Post 02-15-17 02:02PM
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 756

quote:
Originally posted by troll
What a lot of people fail to realize or take note of, especially outside the US, is that there are a ton of amazing American curlers around but most don't want to waste their time and their own money for a dead end. They've come up as competitive juniors but the current HPP/USCA/USOC competitive setup has 0 chance of a happy ending for them. They won't gain much of any OOM points so even if they'd win Nationals it'd end there. And their chances of winning Nationals are slim when the HPP stacks their own team and odds. Instead they are their club's and state's top curlers and are very successful in bonspiels around the country but you may have never heard their names.

Point being that the US doesn't lack depth on either Women's or Men's sides. The US lacks a system that encourages these talented individuals to want to compete.



It is one thing to tilt the scales for the mens/womens teams -- and it looks like that is not going to change. But I would suggest that it is very shortsighted to do the same with junior curlers. Lots of talented juniors are going to give up their dreams because the HP deck is stacked so solidly against them.

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Old Post 02-15-17 02:55PM
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AlanMacNeill
Drawmaster

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 904

Yep,

Witness the "playdowns" for Junior Nationals this year...

only 7 teams played for the 8 slots in the Eastern Region, and it's not like it was because the west was loaded either.

Not all that many years ago, *JUST* the GNCC Junior Mens had 8 entries...and one of the ones that came *low* in those standings was..Clawson...

By eliminating the dreams of the kids, you're shooting the program of 5-10 years from now in the heart. HEater and Face and Dropkin and even Clawson won't be around forever.

They need and deserve support, but they neither need nor deserve having the path to victory made a 4 lane paved superhighway for them versus an uphill rock strewn impossibility for the others.

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Old Post 02-15-17 03:25PM
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misty1
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Sep 2011
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well, mccormick not out of it yet but he cant afford any more losses. if he manages to run the table and wins, even over shuster in the final he goes to worlds right?

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Old Post 02-15-17 04:02PM
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curlky
Swing Artist

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 493

quote:
Originally posted by troll
What a lot of people fail to realize or take note of, especially outside the US, is that there are a ton of amazing American curlers around but most don't want to waste their time and their own money for a dead end.


Can you tell me if this is your opinion or based upon some sort of survey of more than a handful of people? If based upon facts, can you provide a citation?

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Old Post 02-15-17 04:14PM
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AlanMacNeill
Drawmaster

Registered: Sep 2011
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Umm...curlky....seriously?

Are you not capable of noticing the declining numbers of entries in our elite competitions, and correlating that directly to each time they've made it either more expensive to compete (moving from Regionals to a pair of qualifiers, then a last chance....then later just moving to the Last Chance), or less likely that your team will go to Worlds, even if you win?

Particularly if you notice that Club Nationals, which doesn't have any such strictures, has *not* had a suffering or decline in number of folks playing down...

Seriously, you can't see that?

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Old Post 02-15-17 04:17PM
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fanofcurling
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 79

quote:
Originally posted by misty1
well, mccormick not out of it yet but he cant afford any more losses. if he manages to run the table and wins, even over shuster in the final he goes to worlds right?


Only two teams could possibly "fall back" to McCormick.
Birr at 5-2 has Sobering and Shuster left. (they would need to lose both to bring McCormick back into a tie-breaker)
Brown at 4-3 has Sobering and Liechter left (they would need to lose one to bring McCormick back into a tie-breaker).
Based on the performances of these teams, it's not looking good for McCormick.
And Fenson is at 4-3, one game up on McCormick also.

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goalieace
Knee-Slider

Registered: Feb 2017
Location: Arvada
Posts: 1

quote:
Originally posted by troll
I know you're all trying to be nice about Wood and Sobering but having both at Nationals makes a mockery of the event. It's supposed to be the USA's top-level event and you essentially allow "pay and go" teams to be a part of it. Why would anyone watch Shuster pound Sobering into submission live or even online?

p.s. I know Sobering earned their place but that's a statement of the inherent problems with the so-called Challenge Round.



But it's ok for Dropkin to be in even though they are 0-7. That's not making a mockery of it, yet Sobering who has a win, who has had competitive games, and who did earn their spot in, is a mockery?

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Old Post 02-15-17 04:23PM
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misty1
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Sep 2011
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Posts: 5011

quote:
Originally posted by fanofcurling


Only two teams could possibly "fall back" to McCormick.
Birr at 5-2 has Sobering and Shuster left. (they would need to lose both to bring McCormick back into a tie-breaker)
Brown at 4-3 has Sobering and Liechter left (they would need to lose one to bring McCormick back into a tie-breaker).
Based on the performances of these teams, it's not looking good for McCormick.
And Fenson is at 4-3, one game up on McCormick also.



yeah, i dont expect his way in to be birr.

brown losing to either of his remaining 2 teams isnt likely but you never know.

mccormick does have to win his last 2 against fensons and dropkin. he should beat dropkin, the tougher one will be fenson.

i know chances arent looking good for him but they arent dead yet.

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Old Post 02-15-17 05:03PM
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IMWright
Hitting Paint

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 183

quote:
Originally posted by goalieace


But it's ok for Dropkin to be in even though they are 0-7. That's not making a mockery of it, yet Sobering who has a win, who has had competitive games, and who did earn their spot in, is a mockery?



He has the right last name, so it's ok... (sarcasm)

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Old Post 02-15-17 05:20PM
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