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| 02-05-17 10:45PM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
Page plays itself out again
Not that Glen and the boys are undeserving, but I feel the page playoff system should be re-examined. Other than ticket sales, why should Epping, the clear cut winner of the round robin be forced to play a preliminary game? I know there are many varied opinions on this, but in my view, the page system SUCKS!
In my opinion we should go back to a semi-final/final format. Page playoff was clearly originally made for pool play, not round robins.
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| 02-05-17 10:52PM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
Re: Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
I hear what you're saying. However, if you advance the top team to the final - that team has to wait a day or two while the other 3 teams sort out who will be served up as the opponent.
The best path might be to give the Top team - if they finish at least 2 games clear of the 2nd place team THE OPTION of either playing a 1-2 game - or advancing straight to final.
The team winning the semi-final goes in the final game with the wind blowing in the sails. That can be an advantage going into the big game. But as the Wrench would have said, the only problem with the semi final is that you may lose it!
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| 02-05-17 11:00PM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
Except, you play for a whole week... you clearly win the round robin and you are rewarded with an extra game. I feel it minimizes the importance of the round robin standings. 5-4 round robin results shouldn't be included in a playoff. In this case, 6 of the 10 teams were still alive, after the round robin. That's my $0.02.
Last edited by CURLING NUTS on 02-05-17 at 11:29PM
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| 02-06-17 10:27AM |
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Guest
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: .
Posts: 1844 |
Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by CURLING NUTS
Not that Glen and the boys are undeserving, but I feel the page playoff system should be re-examined. Other than ticket sales, why should Epping, the clear cut winner of the round robin be forced to play a preliminary game? I know there are many varied opinions on this, but in my view, the page system SUCKS!
In my opinion we should go back to a semi-final/final format. Page playoff was clearly originally made for pool play, not round robins.
Electoral reform seems to be in vogue these days, unless you're the winner of course.
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| 02-06-17 11:40AM |
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Ajay
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 570 |
"Clear cut winner". Very often the difference between the first and second team is very marginal and I feel the page system acknowledges this and makes it more fair, giving each team a second chance.
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| 02-06-17 12:04PM |
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FollowingAlong
Swing Artist
Registered: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 459 |
Page system, advantage/disadvantage?
The only teams who benefit from the Page playoff in a round robin competition are the 2nd place team and the 4th place team.
The Page System makes sense only for a two pool playoff where there is no obvious #1 team.
Every team that finishes #1 in a single pool round robin format would take the one game final instead of having to play a 1-2 game and then a possible semi-final if they lose the 1-2 game. It's a no-brainer!
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| 02-06-17 12:55PM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
I would wager that any team entering a competition would be very happy to be in the 1v2 game. Even if they went through the rr with no losses. Better than a 1v4, 2v3 loser out scenario.
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| 02-06-17 01:06PM |
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FollowingAlong
Swing Artist
Registered: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 459 |
quote:
Originally posted by guido
I would wager that any team entering a competition would be very happy to be in the 1v2 game. Even if they went through the rr with no losses. Better than a 1v4, 2v3 loser out scenario.
I would wager that any team entering a competition would be happier to simply get a bye to the final if they finished round robin in first. They are "happy" to be in the 1-2 game only because it is a game imposed on them due to the format of the competition. The only time they are truly happy with having to play the 1-2 game is if they win that game....
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| 02-06-17 01:59PM |
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Prawnpuller
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2013
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 97 |
IMHO the page playoff is the best case scenario. the top two teams are "rewarded" for the round robin play in the 1 v 2 game and that's a lot better than a say 10-0 rr team losing out in a 1 v 4 scenario.....The only other way which would be fair is eliminate the playoffs....Winner of the round robin is the winner.period.
Two things can happen........One is bad
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| 02-06-17 02:20PM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
In any other sport is there a "go straight to the final" competition?????
Hockey. 16 effin teams make the playoffs. most absurd of any.
CFL (the 2nd rate league) 1st gets bye to semi final.
NFL first gets first round bye.
Basketball. Who cares!
Baseball. No byes
The rr / prelims are to see who gets to the playoffs.
The playoffs are to decide who is the best.
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| 02-06-17 02:41PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by CURLING NUTS
Why should … the clear cut winner of the round robin be forced to play a preliminary game? …Page playoff was clearly originally made for pool play, not round robins.
I look at it this way. Epping lost his first playoff game. If not for the Page, he would have been eliminated at that point. The Page only provided him with a chance to help himself out but he lost again. How would you like the system to work better? Would you prefer that the clear cut winner of the round robin play just wins the event and no playoffs are necessary?
I don’t see any format where Epping losing his first game would work out for him outside of a no playoff only system
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| 02-06-17 02:47PM |
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Ajay
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 570 |
When comparing to other sports you best keep in mind that many times the finals are a 3 out of 5 or 4 out 7 series, which is most fair. Obviously curling is not at that level despite considering top teams as professionals. They still have to earn a living outside of curling( except teams fully funded by their countries) and could not afford time necessary for that. The page playoff goes a small way towards this in that you at least have to win 2 out of 2.
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| 02-06-17 02:54PM |
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2668 |
How about do what Sask and AB do - have a triple knockout with ABC...lose three times and you're out whether you are Epping Howard or Tuck.
Sometimes you get the result you might not expect (i.e. SK) but saves tie-breakers, shortens the time etc...
__________________
Well Behaved Women Don't Make History.
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| 02-06-17 03:00PM |
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Stumpy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 46 |
Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by CURLING NUTS
Not that Glen and the boys are undeserving, but I feel the page playoff system should be re-examined. Other than ticket sales, why should Epping, the clear cut winner of the round robin be forced to play a preliminary game? I know there are many varied opinions on this, but in my view, the page system SUCKS!
In my opinion we should go back to a semi-final/final format. Page playoff was clearly originally made for pool play, not round robins.
This is one of the strangest non-ML posts on this forum. Epping lost 2 straight playoff games, the team clearly choking under the pressure as he threw away sizeable leads. And yet you blame the system not the team? That makes no logical sense. To suggest that a team that cannot win a single playoff game deserves a better fate is mind-boggling to me.
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| 02-06-17 03:01PM |
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Stumpy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 46 |
Re: Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
I hear what you're saying. However, if you advance the top team to the final - that team has to wait a day or two while the other 3 teams sort out who will be served up as the opponent.
The best path might be to give the Top team - if they finish at least 2 games clear of the 2nd place team THE OPTION of either playing a 1-2 game - or advancing straight to final.
Do you actually believe any team would ever pick to play the extra game? That's a ridiculous suggestion.
Also, I'm still waiting for you to take my bet. You suggested Homan at 5-1 and Englot at 15-1, I'd still like both of those odds please, like you suggested over a week ago. Please put your money where your mouth is.
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| 02-06-17 03:23PM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlerbroad
How about do what Sask and AB do - have a triple knockout with ABC...lose three times and you're out whether you are Epping Howard or Tuck.
Sometimes you get the result you might not expect (i.e. SK) but saves tie-breakers, shortens the time etc...
Both have the page playoff.
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| 02-06-17 04:29PM |
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FollowingAlong
Swing Artist
Registered: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 459 |
quote:
Originally posted by guido
In any other sport is there a "go straight to the final" competition?????
Hockey. 16 effin teams make the playoffs. most absurd of any.
CFL (the 2nd rate league) 1st gets bye to semi final.
NFL first gets first round bye.
Basketball. Who cares!
Baseball. No byes
The rr / prelims are to see who gets to the playoffs.
The playoffs are to decide who is the best.
The Page playoff does not determine who is the best. If you wanted that, you would have a true triple knockout or a multi-game playoff between the two top teams, the latter of those two options many times provided by the Page playoff, but not always.
In the case of the Ontario Tankard, Epping vs. Howard happened twice (once in round robin; once in the Page 1v2 game) with the two teams splitting those games and then Epping did not get back to play a third game against Howard.
The curling playoff scenario, whether it be 1v4 and 2v3 with the winners playing a final or the Page system with 1v2 and 3v4 with the loser of the 1v2 game playing the winner of the 3v4 game with the winner of that game playing the 1v2 game winner for all the marbles accomplishes two things - it gives the #1 team a chance to lose a playoff game (as long as it's not the final) and still win the event and it guarantees an event final at a specific day and time (most presumably to cater to television coverage).
If you lose two straight games in the playoffs, you should be done, regardless what your round robin record might be.
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| 02-06-17 06:40PM |
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Prawnpuller
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2013
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 97 |
quote:
Originally posted by guido
Both have the page playoff.
Re Sk. & Alberta playing a triple knockout.......with this system you may argue that everyone does not play the whole field thus depending on the seeding some teams may have an easier route to qualify for the playoffs.Just saying
Unfortunately in this present era everything revolves around TV ratings and schedules so I'm just fine with a round robin and a page playoff.
Two things can happen..........One is bad
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| 02-06-17 07:28PM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
Re: Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by curlky
I look at it this way. Epping lost his first playoff game. If not for the Page, he would have been eliminated at that point. The Page only provided him with a chance to help himself out but he lost again. How would you like the system to work better? Would you prefer that the clear cut winner of the round robin play just wins the event and no playoffs are necessary?
I don’t see any format where Epping losing his first game would work out for him outside of a no playoff only system
Easy, top three teams to the final. No marginal 5-4 teams make the playoffs, like this year. Just like they used to do about 20 years ago. You don't minimize the round robin and the best team, 9 out of ten times usually won. Russ Howard, Ed Weirnich etal. If you like the page then have it as seeded pools.
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| 02-06-17 07:37PM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
Re: Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by Stumpy
This is one of the strangest non-ML posts on this forum. Epping lost 2 straight playoff games, the team clearly choking under the pressure as he threw away sizeable leads. And yet you blame the system not the team? That makes no logical sense. To suggest that a team that cannot win a single playoff game deserves a better fate is mind-boggling to me.
The only thing strange is that response. Respectfully, you undoubtedly have not been around long enough to realize that the Tankard ( 20 years ago) was a round robin, semi and final event. Subsequent to that, TV and ticket sales became a priority so they went to the page, which does not reward the round-robin winner. It just creates more games.
Marginalized 5-4 record teams, should not be in the playoffs, like which happened this year. 6 out of 10 of the teams were still vying for the championship! Are you kidding me? You are minimizing the importance of the round robin.
Nevertheless, if you like the page then alter it to a seeded pool play competition, or something along that line.
Cheers!
Last edited by CURLING NUTS on 02-06-17 at 08:11PM
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| 02-06-17 11:04PM |
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Stumpy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 46 |
Re: Re: Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by CURLING NUTS
The only thing strange is that response. Respectfully, you undoubtedly have not been around long enough to realize that the Tankard ( 20 years ago) was a round robin, semi and final event. Subsequent to that, TV and ticket sales became a priority so they went to the page, which does not reward the round-robin winner. It just creates more games.
Marginalized 5-4 record teams, should not be in the playoffs, like which happened this year. 6 out of 10 of the teams were still vying for the championship! Are you kidding me? You are minimizing the importance of the round robin.
Nevertheless, if you like the page then alter it to a seeded pool play competition, or something along that line.
Cheers!
I think you completely missed my point. My point was Team Epping only have themselves to blame. They had 2 games and 2 leads and blew it. They lost because of their play, not because the system needs fixing.
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| 02-07-17 09:45AM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by Stumpy
I think you completely missed my point. My point was Team Epping only have themselves to blame. They had 2 games and 2 leads and blew it. They lost because of their play, not because the system needs fixing.
I didn't miss your point whatsoever. MY point was, regardless of how team Epping played the round robin winner is not rewarded. "Oh, we won the round robin..let's go out and play another prelimanary". The page is weighted for more games and ticket sales, and allows in many cases, too many teams to slip in the back door with marginal records.
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| 02-07-17 09:50AM |
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watcher2
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 63 |
Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by CURLING NUTS
Not that Glen and the boys are undeserving, but I feel the page playoff system should be re-examined. Other than ticket sales, why should Epping, the clear cut winner of the round robin be forced to play a preliminary game? I know there are many varied opinions on this, but in my view, the page system SUCKS!
In my opinion we should go back to a semi-final/final format. Page playoff was clearly originally made for pool play, not round robins.
Well I respect Epping....but he lost two games in a row that he had full control of. In the Tuck game he was up 6-1 in the 4th.
The guy I feel sorry for is Tuck....the ice beat him in the final, not that Howard isn't deserving. It seems the three teams, Epping, Howard and Tuck are all deserving...unfortunately only one can win.
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| 02-07-17 11:12AM |
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Stumpy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 46 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by CURLING NUTS
I didn't miss your point whatsoever. MY point was, regardless of how team Epping played the round robin winner is not rewarded. "Oh, we won the round robin..let's go out and play another prelimanary". The page is weighted for more games and ticket sales, and allows in many cases, too many teams to slip in the back door with marginal records.
My counter argument to that is the provincial championships are supposed to reward the team with the best chance to win the national championship. Or at least that's what the original goal was. The argument could be made that since the national championship requires one to win multiple win-or-go-home games, the provincial championship should do the same. Obviously the winner of a single game accomplishes the opposite - I don't think there's anyone that would argue that Tuck would have put up a better round robin record at the Brier than Epping. But the OCA isn't looking for the best round robin record, the OCA is looking to increase Canadian championships by OCA teams. Grooming them using the same playoff system by battle testing them in single game elimination seems to be the proven method Canada-wide. Whether that's still relevant or necessary after the growth of the WCT is up-for-debate, but there certainly isn't going to be a change any time soon.
Do you suggest this carries over into other sports? A sports season is just a large round robin. Do you believe it's unfair that the Blue Jays beat Texas in the playoffs? How dare a wild card team beat the team with the best regular season record! Should the Stanley Cup automatically be played between the team with the top record in each conference? Otherwise it's unfair to those teams?
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| 02-07-17 11:34AM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
Re: Page plays itself out again
quote:
Originally posted by CURLING NUTS
Not that Glen and the boys are undeserving, but I feel the page playoff system should be re-examined. Other than ticket sales, why should Epping, the clear cut winner of the round robin be forced to play a preliminary game? I know there are many varied opinions on this, but in my view, the page system SUCKS!
In my opinion we should go back to a semi-final/final format. Page playoff was clearly originally made for pool play, not round robins.
If this was the case, Epping would have only had ONE chance. Lose and DONE.
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