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04-10-15 11:16PM
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lolar3288
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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 638

quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


LMFAO. typical response when faced with common sense.



The percent of Canadians curling as related to the population has almost 1/2'ed since 1980 (2.5% vs 4%). At the rate clubs are failing financially just where do you, with all your "common sense", think that the future high performance curlers are going to come from in 10 or 20 years?

How long do you expect current teams to go on when they have to travel, train and work for a living, not to mention family ties?

A few years ago this common sense model of yours was reflective of the thinking around Research in Motion and look where Blackberry is now.

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04-11-15 08:35AM
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HotRocks
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Apathy and complacency

quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288
Typical Canadian opinion, do nothing, "the budget will balance itself"!

With you lolar3288..... and the thought you are putting into this issue
The fact that a couple of responses have been ridicule and derision and "have a drink".. shows the lazy-mindedness of way too many Canadians
Seems like the Scotties and Brier are NOT sending Canada's "best" teams.. or if they are why arent they finishing the year with better results on the world stage?

Why is curling in Canada ignoring the poor provinces , Maritimes and the North... who dont have the money to travel to events like the richly sponsored and travelled Teams of MB, AB ON...
relegating the teams who need the experience the most seems very backwards and very "lazy"..
we can do better...

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04-11-15 10:47AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


Dinorock, you're still the best!

as J-Ho, (the real best) would say, "where is the like button?" Have a great spring and summer.

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04-11-15 01:02PM
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JustAnotherHack
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Well, good to see the usual suspects are up in arms again, over little.

So we didn't win the World's this year. Oh my, the sky is falling!

Is our competitiveness declining? Do we suck? Do we need to blow up Curling Canada?

For the last point... I think for many of the posters here, their screaming at Curling Canada has little to do with this issue, and more to do with their general anger at Curling Canada and their provincial associations.

We could have sent 4 teams to the worlds and all four of them could have made it to the playoffs. Only the Swiss (ladies) are even close to that right now.

There are tweaks to the system that need to be made. And maybe, just maybe, the idea of using the Canada Cup as our world rep needs to be looked at. I know, this is sacrilegious but... if you really want to take a long hard look at how we select our elite teams, you need to consider it.

(Personally, I think things are fine as it is right now when it comes to Team Canada selected from the Brier/Scotties... even though I think we need to find a way to get rid of the relegation.)

I will say that there needs to be work done on the development of curling on the provincial/club level... and I think some of the provincial associations and clubs are failing miserably at this. Is this the fault of Curling Canada? Maybe... maybe not entirely.

I'd like to see them support the provincial associations to build ice conditions that competitive teams will need to play on when it comes to top level events, and to support their member associations in getting their clubs to change the way they do business in order to boost their numbers, and maybe even find ways to fund semi-competitive tours in the various parts of the country so those semi-competitive to competitive teams can hone their skills.

And I think a lot of the issues on the club/social scene of curling falls on the clubs themselves doing a crappy job of adapting to the times. There seems to be a lot of clubs stuck in the past... and with all the competing interests out there, as well as the change in the demographics around us, we cannot be. Curling Canada and their member associations can only go so far... and expecting them to fix all the problems at the club level isn't realistic. They can provide tools, but they can't fix every single club.

And those clubs always have the option to walk away from their provincial associations at Curling Canada... but let me know how that works for you.

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04-11-15 01:51PM
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Gerry
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What can we do for clubs who refuse to keep up to the times? Who don't seem to be open to new ideas to build membership, improve conditions, etc.

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04-11-15 09:50PM
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watcher2
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Registered: Mar 2015
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
What can we do for clubs who refuse to keep up to the times? Who don't seem to be open to new ideas to build membership, improve conditions, etc.


Gerry you are the last person that should have their head in the sand and be so far from reality!

Club's are not refusing to keep up or anything like that! They CAN'T AFFORD TO DO THE THINGS THAT WOULD IMPROVE CONDITIONS AND BUILD MEMBERSHIP! They can barely afford to keep the doors open and lights on! Most clubs can't even pay for the necessities without bar revenues. Think of it. A business plan where your core service can't even cover everyday expenses! Take that to a bank and try to get a loan!

They require mainly volunteers to do day to day stuff! Volunteers come with the best of intentions but not usually the best of qualifications.

This sport needs an infusion of advertising money and a good ad program in September as Clubs are getting rolling for a new season. Only a large organization like OCA or CCA can do this. Trouble is they can't see that.

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04-11-15 09:58PM
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watcher2
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Back to the topic: I am at the Player Championship this weekend in Toronto. In the last two days I have watched about 7 or 8 non-Canadian teams playing in this highly competitive event. The so called "men's world champ" Edlin didn't win a game.

What really bugs me is here in Canada we are allowing these teams to play and improve when I am sure there are some good, up coming Canadian teams that could use both the experience and money.

As far as I am concerned, the Slam events should be limited to North American teams.

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04-11-15 10:14PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
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Maybe not limited to, but given the first opportunity to attend, then if there's openings, invite the other countries. The Canadian fans and tv viewers will support Canadian teams regardless if there's other countries invited or not. Support your own teams first.

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04-11-15 10:21PM
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JustAnotherHack
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quote:
Originally posted by watcher2

Club's are not refusing to keep up or anything like that! They CAN'T AFFORD TO DO THE THINGS THAT WOULD IMPROVE CONDITIONS AND BUILD MEMBERSHIP! They can barely afford to keep the doors open and lights on! Most clubs can't even pay for the necessities without bar revenues. Think of it. A business plan where your core service can't even cover everyday expenses! Take that to a bank and try to get a loan!

They require mainly volunteers to do day to day stuff! Volunteers come with the best of intentions but not usually the best of qualifications.

This sport needs an infusion of advertising money and a good ad program in September as Clubs are getting rolling for a new season. Only a large organization like OCA or CCA can do this. Trouble is they can't see that.



Talk about head in the sand.

Let's start with the last point, as I do kind of agree here, but only partially. I do wish Curling Canada do spend a bit of that money on advertising the sport in September... it makes some sense. But then the clubs need to make sure they have programs in place that can take in new curlers and make them feel welcome.

Many clubs do. More than a few do not.

And the club level is responsible for letting folks in their communities know about them and when they have open houses and the like. How they can do it... well there are some cheaper methods (sign boards outside the club, community service bulletins, a properly designed web site all come to mind). I think providing clubs resources and help to do this on-the-ground work might actually be more effective than throwing a pile of money into a tv advertising campaign.

Things as simple as a simple functional website and things like a Facebook and Twitter feed (or platforms like Instagram, Foursquare, Google+ and so on) are cheap and easy to set up. Yet many clubs completely fail in this area (shoot, I'd say the vast majority of clubs sucks at e-media)... and have no interest in bothering to learn.

Which leads me into the rest.

Clubs can afford to do a lot of things. It's just that they won't. It's a ****-poor excuse saying they can't afford to have a properly functional and maintained website in this day and age. Or have a least the basic e-media out there for your club.

And really, if your club is empty... why the heck do you not have some sort of novice league set up to bring in new curlers? You may have to discount the league slightly, bring in a bit of instruction and maybe not expect that the league is going to be full, but if you make a supportive environment for new curlers, you will attract interest. Don't just drop them into a "competitive" league as a lead and hope they stick around.

Come up with alternate formats for new people might help fill in spots here and there. A drop in league if you have a night that's not full might fill the other sheets and get some interest. Mixed doubles is another option. Using things like Groupon (and the like... I know clubs that have used SuocialShopper and WagJag) offering "coupons" for curling lessons or ice time is another idea.

Make it a place where new curlers of all types would feel welcome. Curling clubs often do a horrible job with immigrant Canadians, and we need to find ways to make them part of our community as well.

Curling clubs do need volunteers. But I've seen more than a few clubs that treat volunteers with new ideas as an annoyance rather than a help and they walk away. You want clubs to survive and thrive? Get away from the old school mentality of the way curling was, and find out ways to make it a sport for the now and the future.

And if a club can't adapt, or at least try... well, maybe they should shut down.

(Sorry for the rant, but I've heard some this before and I call bull****. Yes, some clubs are trying and are still suffering and they do deserve some help and support, but there are a lot clubs that have a certain mentality that do not want their private little club disturbed... and I have no tolerance for that.)

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04-11-15 10:27PM
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JustAnotherHack
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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
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quote:
Originally posted by watcher2
Back to the topic: I am at the Player Championship this weekend in Toronto. In the last two days I have watched about 7 or 8 non-Canadian teams playing in this highly competitive event. The so called "men's world champ" Edlin didn't win a game.

What really bugs me is here in Canada we are allowing these teams to play and improve when I am sure there are some good, up coming Canadian teams that could use both the experience and money.

As far as I am concerned, the Slam events should be limited to North American teams.



Bull****. Really? We're going to call it the North American Slams? Please.

The Slams are about the best teams. Period. It's privately funded by Sportsnet anyway so we get zero say on how they want to run it, but if you want the top level event, you get the top teams, where ever they are from. It's good for our guys to play against the best, just as much as it's good for the non-Canadians.

You want to play in the Slam? Get in on your merits. Go grind it out (Bottcher did it, so did Carruthers... they weren't handed their spots).

What I would like to see though is maybe a play-in event at a few of the Slams (i.e., winning WCT spiel "XYZ" gets you a spot, and if you already have one, it goes to the next best team that doesn't). And I would really like to see more money for the second and third teir spiels and other regional events. I honestly think that this is where Curling Canada needs to sink some money into or find a partner that's willing to do it with them.

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04-11-15 11:32PM
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Loony
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Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack
There seems to be a lot of clubs stuck in the past... and with all the competing interests out there, as well as the change in the demographics around us, we cannot be.

quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack
You want clubs to survive and thrive? Get away from the old school mentality of the way curling was, and find out ways to make it a sport for the now and the future.

I think those clubs are being run by the people who post on this forum.

You have a bunch of really good ideas. I hope you're involved in running your own club.

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04-12-15 10:42AM
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Gerry
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


Talk about head in the sand.

Let's start with the last point, as I do kind of agree here, but only partially. I do wish Curling Canada do spend a bit of that money on advertising the sport in September... it makes some sense. But then the clubs need to make sure they have programs in place that can take in new curlers and make them feel welcome.

Many clubs do. More than a few do not.

And the club level is responsible for letting folks in their communities know about them and when they have open houses and the like. How they can do it... well there are some cheaper methods (sign boards outside the club, community service bulletins, a properly designed web site all come to mind). I think providing clubs resources and help to do this on-the-ground work might actually be more effective than throwing a pile of money into a tv advertising campaign.

Things as simple as a simple functional website and things like a Facebook and Twitter feed (or platforms like Instagram, Foursquare, Google+ and so on) are cheap and easy to set up. Yet many clubs completely fail in this area (shoot, I'd say the vast majority of clubs sucks at e-media)... and have no interest in bothering to learn.

Which leads me into the rest.

Clubs can afford to do a lot of things. It's just that they won't. It's a ****-poor excuse saying they can't afford to have a properly functional and maintained website in this day and age. Or have a least the basic e-media out there for your club.

And really, if your club is empty... why the heck do you not have some sort of novice league set up to bring in new curlers? You may have to discount the league slightly, bring in a bit of instruction and maybe not expect that the league is going to be full, but if you make a supportive environment for new curlers, you will attract interest. Don't just drop them into a "competitive" league as a lead and hope they stick around.

Come up with alternate formats for new people might help fill in spots here and there. A drop in league if you have a night that's not full might fill the other sheets and get some interest. Mixed doubles is another option. Using things like Groupon (and the like... I know clubs that have used SuocialShopper and WagJag) offering "coupons" for curling lessons or ice time is another idea.

Make it a place where new curlers of all types would feel welcome. Curling clubs often do a horrible job with immigrant Canadians, and we need to find ways to make them part of our community as well.

Curling clubs do need volunteers. But I've seen more than a few clubs that treat volunteers with new ideas as an annoyance rather than a help and they walk away. You want clubs to survive and thrive? Get away from the old school mentality of the way curling was, and find out ways to make it a sport for the now and the future.

And if a club can't adapt, or at least try... well, maybe they should shut down.

(Sorry for the rant, but I've heard some this before and I call bull****. Yes, some clubs are trying and are still suffering and they do deserve some help and support, but there are a lot clubs that have a certain mentality that do not want their private little club disturbed... and I have no tolerance for that.)



Just throwing money at a problem doesn't solve it. There are programs available for clubs to take advantage of, but ideas like these are the first step to changing the culture of your clubs.

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04-12-15 12:39PM
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JustAnotherHack
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Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
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quote:
Originally posted by Loony


I think those clubs are being run by the people who post on this forum.

You have a bunch of really good ideas. I hope you're involved in running your own club.



I tend to think the same. A lot of people point the fingers at Curling Canada or their provincial association but haven't bother to try to much more than the "same old same old" at their club level. New curlers don't just walk in the door... we need to lead them and then find a way to keep them.

(And I do try to get involved with the clubs I play out of... but I'm shifting my volunteering more towards coaching these days and working towards completing my Comp Dev stuff. Not that I'm afraid to toss out my ideas to the folks running the clubs... sometimes I can't keep my mouth shut!)

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04-12-15 12:44PM
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JustAnotherHack
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry


Just throwing money at a problem doesn't solve it. There are programs available for clubs to take advantage of, but ideas like these are the first step to changing the culture of your clubs.



That's the truth. I don't want a club to get a dime if they don't have something in place, or show the willingness to take advantage of some of those programs.

Money helps, but there needs to be a viable plan to use it first.

I wonder if we should start a topic about the different ideas that are out there on how we could improve our clubs at the local level.

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04-12-15 08:14PM
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jamcan
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quote:
Originally posted by Ventry


This is also a red herring.

Just because more teams from the East don't get out on tour is not representative of anything other of the financial realities of being able to get out on tour. It's a combination of being an elite talent plus the availability of sponsorship dollars.

It's no surprise that the teams that are or have been on tour from the East were past national junior champions or a transplanted talent like Dacey that could compete/get sponsored.

It seems presumptuous to believe more teams could get on tour if only they made the effort like the Tour teams. I am sure many teams would love the opportunity and have tried to make it work financially.

And how do you know that these teams are not just as committed to getting better as the teams on Tour by playing in local bonspiels and practising.

There seems to be an underlying generalization of the weaker/poorer provinces simply taking advantage of the system which is incredibly insulting to say the least.

And all of this "get out on Tour to avoid relegation" talk seems like a moot point when the Brier changes are apparently supposed to be about fairness and accessibility.



Careful Ventry. Make sensible, reasonable and well written arguments and you'll just labeled a dinosaur on this site. Lol!

Seriously though an accurate and insightful post.

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04-13-15 06:14AM
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Ventry
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Registered: Feb 2015
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


Careful Ventry. Make sensible, reasonable and well written arguments and you'll just labeled a dinosaur on this site. Lol!

Seriously though an accurate and insightful post.



Thanks. This "win at all costs" mentality, IMO, is a slippery slope that can be used to justify any changes or funding priorities or marginalization.

My main concern is fundamentally, or at least the majority of, Curling Canada's mandate is to promote participation and development in the sport; not to ensure Canada "owns the Podium". For this they receive $2.5 million in federal funding paid for by Canadian taxpayers:

http://canada.pch.gc.ca/eng/1414163496704/1414163642902

I don't where this funding is tied to world and Olympic results as Warren Hansen has alluded to i.e. funding will decrease if Canada does not win.

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04-13-15 11:32AM
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Jimbobogie
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quote:
Originally posted by watcher2
Back to the topic: I am at the Player Championship this weekend in Toronto. In the last two days I have watched about 7 or 8 non-Canadian teams playing in this highly competitive event. The so called "men's world champ" Edlin didn't win a game.

What really bugs me is here in Canada we are allowing these teams to play and improve when I am sure there are some good, up coming Canadian teams that could use both the experience and money.

As far as I am concerned, the Slam events should be limited to North American teams.



Watcher, I didn't see a smilie on your message-I'm hoping that you simply forgot to add it, but if you're serious, then:

1. Why allow U.S. teams into the event? Last time I checked, Canada was a separate country...oops, there weren't any.
2. Why bother having a "World" Championship-everybody knows that Canada is the best, right?
3. Why bother having curling at the Olympics? See Point 2.

...oops-if I'm not mistaken, a couple of those "dam forreners" have matched up in the women's final...

Well, imagine that!

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04-13-15 12:33PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobogie


Watcher, I didn't see a smilie on your message-I'm hoping that you simply forgot to add it, but if you're serious, then:

1. Why allow U.S. teams into the event? Last time I checked, Canada was a separate country...oops, there weren't any.
2. Why bother having a "World" Championship-everybody knows that Canada is the best, right?
3. Why bother having curling at the Olympics? See Point 2.

...oops-if I'm not mistaken, a couple of those "dam forreners" have matched up in the women's final...

Well, imagine that!



Well, I see one reason, the USA is one of the few countries actually building curling clubs not losing curling clubs like Canada.

As a whole, the rest of the world cares strongly about the Olympics, not so much Canadians so they will do what they must to win a medal. Right now the cheapest way to do that is sponsor a couple of teams, send them to Canada and let Canada prepare them. If that wasn't an option maybe they would develop clubs and curling in their own country (no need to do that now). So much for the development of the sport theory.

Or Canada could continue to do what it usually does...nothing..then makes excuses for falling from the top.

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04-13-15 12:50PM
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JustAnotherHack
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quote:
Originally posted by Ventry


This is also a red herring.

Just because more teams from the East don't get out on tour is not representative of anything other of the financial realities of being able to get out on tour. It's a combination of being an elite talent plus the availability of sponsorship dollars.

It's no surprise that the teams that are or have been on tour from the East were past national junior champions or a transplanted talent like Dacey that could compete/get sponsored.

It seems presumptuous to believe more teams could get on tour if only they made the effort like the Tour teams. I am sure many teams would love the opportunity and have tried to make it work financially.

And how do you know that these teams are not just as committed to getting better as the teams on Tour by playing in local bonspiels and practising.

There seems to be an underlying generalization of the weaker/poorer provinces simply taking advantage of the system which is incredibly insulting to say the least.

And all of this "get out on Tour to avoid relegation" talk seems like a moot point when the Brier changes are apparently supposed to be about fairness and accessibility.



Good points.

Do you think that maybe Curling Canada (and the provincial associations) should fund or find funding partners for regional tours? And maybe some technical support to get the ice conditions at these events close to the standards we see for the Season of Champions / Slams? It doesn't have to be huge money, but they may be able to pull in tour sponsors and provide technical support.

My thinking is that if we can have a regional tour system that play on ice conditions similar to those top level events, teams would be able to play locally and cut down some costs and still get some of that needed practice to help develop and potentially move up to the top teir events.

But then you would need a dedicated group of local curlers that would be willing to participate... and are there enough in the Maritimes/BC/QC/NF or anywhere else you may want to set up a regional competitive tour?

(I'm exculding the Praries and ON as they do have options for regional events and tours already.)

I'd love to see Sportsnet take some of those dollars they seem to be throwing around to the Slams and consider funding regional tour events as well. In the long run, it would support the success of the Slams if you have a larger pool of talented curlers to draw from.

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04-13-15 01:20PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


Good points.

Do you think that maybe Curling Canada (and the provincial associations) should fund or find funding partners for regional tours? And maybe some technical support to get the ice conditions at these events close to the standards we see for the Season of Champions / Slams? It doesn't have to be huge money, but they may be able to pull in tour sponsors and provide technical support.

My thinking is that if we can have a regional tour system that play on ice conditions similar to those top level events, teams would be able to play locally and cut down some costs and still get some of that needed practice to help develop and potentially move up to the top teir events.

But then you would need a dedicated group of local curlers that would be willing to participate... and are there enough in the Maritimes/BC/QC/NF or anywhere else you may want to set up a regional competitive tour?

(I'm exculding the Praries and ON as they do have options for regional events and tours already.)

I'd love to see Sportsnet take some of those dollars they seem to be throwing around to the Slams and consider funding regional tour events as well. In the long run, it would support the success of the Slams if you have a larger pool of talented curlers to draw from.



These sound like good ideas except I don't like the idea of any CCA event being tiered.

Unless Sportsnet can make money from regional tours, I wouldn't hold your breath for them to make development a priority.

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A very interesting quote from a completely unrelated sport, but it seems very apt here:

quote:
There's a big lobby within the sports industry saying that all governing bodies should be like F1," says Richard Gillis, a sports business commentator and author of the Unofficial Partner blog. "Traditional governing bodies such as the ECB and Football Association have a public-sector ethos; they exist to support grass roots, so that the money they generate can be reinvested for the greater good. Formula One, and increasingly the IPL, has more in common with the private sector. There's no need to spend money on anyone beyond themselves. The only benchmark by which they are judged is profit."


(http://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/854401) (bolding mine)

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quote:
Originally posted by Ventry


These sound like good ideas except I don't like the idea of any CCA event being tiered.

Unless Sportsnet can make money from regional tours, I wouldn't hold your breath for them to make development a priority.



I was thinking more along the lines of having Curling Canada provide technical expertise (such as ice making), or assist in organizing until a local committee is able and willing to take it on. The events in themselves wouldn't be tiered, but given that the prizes would probably be lower than top events, you wouldn't see as many of the current elite showing up.

I'll agree with you on Sportsnet, but I was enjoying some wishful thinking. The catch for any idea of regional tours would be sponsors... without them, I think it would be very tough to make them viable over the long term.

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quote:
Originally posted by watcher2


Well, I see one reason, the USA is one of the few countries actually building curling clubs not losing curling clubs like Canada.

As a whole, the rest of the world cares strongly about the Olympics, not so much Canadians so they will do what they must to win a medal. Right now the cheapest way to do that is sponsor a couple of teams, send them to Canada and let Canada prepare them. If that wasn't an option maybe they would develop clubs and curling in their own country (no need to do that now). So much for the development of the sport theory.

Or Canada could continue to do what it usually does...nothing..then makes excuses for falling from the top.



A bit of a red herring again. The US are building clubs because they don't have many to begin with. Especially in the locations where they are popping up.

And teams come to Canada as that's where the highest consistent level of competition is (and the most money). Golfers want to play in the US PGA because that's where the toughest competition and most money is. There might be regional and envelop mental tours, but they all want to get to the US PGA. Same thing applies to curlers in Canada (the difference being is that curling teams are government sponsored... And you can make living as a middling golfer, but you can't as a middling curler).

I don't think anyone is advocating doing nothing. But whining about damn dirty foreigners curling in Canada (and implying that we should bar them) is part of the reason I think that curling suffers here at the grassroots and competitive levels. Come up with some better ideas than that.

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I just dont get those people that say we should stop teams from coming to canada. I will say again that the fact that canada now has several teams that can compete with them instead of just 2 or 3 is a good thing, it means the sport is growing.

curling needs these teams to be able to compete with canada whether people on here think so or not.

overall canada collected more medals than any other country at worlds this year. it is the only country to win a medal in every discipline. as far as the cash tour goes..foreign teams only won 1 major event this year.

i dont see a problem

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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


A bit of a red herring again. The US are building clubs because they don't have many to begin with. Especially in the locations where they are popping up.

And teams come to Canada as that's where the highest consistent level of competition is (and the most money). Golfers want to play in the US PGA because that's where the toughest competition and most money is. There might be regional and envelop mental tours, but they all want to get to the US PGA. Same thing applies to curlers in Canada (the difference being is that curling teams are government sponsored... And you can make living as a middling golfer, but you can't as a middling curler).

I don't think anyone is advocating doing nothing. But whining about damn dirty foreigners curling in Canada (and implying that we should bar them) is part of the reason I think that curling suffers here at the grassroots and competitive levels. Come up with some better ideas than that.



If there are any better practical ideas I'd love to hear them.

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