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W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: W5 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 8:00am CT
Giroux Final
Schapman (7) Watch Live Curling!
Johnson 10  Final
Scheel (9) Watch Live Curling!
Berg Final
Viau (9) Watch Live Curling!
Pekowitz 11  Final
Berg (7) Watch Live Curling!
: Canadian Wheelchair Championship
Moose Jaw, SK
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 7 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 6:30pm MT
AB (Kuchelyma) Final
NB (Fitzgerald) (8)
AB (Purvis) Final
ON (Rees) 10  (7)
SK (Dash) Final
MB (Thiessen) (EE)
ON (Morris) Final
SK (Pederson) (EE)
QC (Marquis) Final
NL (Carroll) (8)
M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: M5 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 7:00pm CT
Fitzgerald Final
Guentzel (10) Watch Live Curling!
Cenzalli Final
Rose (10) Watch Live Curling!
Church Final
Lannoye (10) Watch Live Curling!
Hebert Final
Brenden (9) Watch Live Curling!
M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
Lott/Lott Final
Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
Delorey Final
Lockhart (EE)
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12-15-14 12:44PM
melvin is offline Click Here to See the Profile for melvin Click here to Send melvin a Private Message Find more posts by melvin Add melvin to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
melvin
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Aug 2012
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My understanding - Drummie down four without. After her final rock, she was counting 1 with sufficient number of (non-counting) rocks in play for the tie. She did not concede.

Reiniger was unsure as to whether she actually needed to deliver her final rock, and amidst that confusion, ran out of time, learning the hard way that apparently yes, you do in fact need to deliver your last rock.

These are the facts as I understand them and should not be taken as me having an opinion on the situation.

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12-15-14 12:58PM
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Thank you for the info...

I have three letters...wow...

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12-15-14 01:07PM
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VAcurler
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Slight clarification to what Melvin posted (I was there, don't ask why). Red (Drummie) could not concede because you can only concede when your clock was running. Yellow therefore had to get their last rock across the tee line before the time ran out and unfortunately time was up before that delivery took place.

I would have to go back to the tape to see if the camera caught it, (I was watching the clock not trying to count the stones) but I believe red was 1, 3, 4, and possibly 5 with yellow being second shot.

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12-15-14 01:09PM
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MCC_PE
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Obviously a difficult situation but if there's any question as whether the final shot needed to be thrown, then hit the side board. Quickly.

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12-15-14 01:11PM
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VAcurler
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More GNCC info

Thinking time was being used all weekend and a certain saxophone player/curler did make a cameo appearance on the Stopera team on Sunday for the last two games.

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12-15-14 01:35PM
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melvin
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VACurler - Are you saying that Drummie tried to concede and was not permitted because her clock was not running?

If that is so, it strikes me as quite odd. Teams concede all the time following a missed shot without forcing their opponent to deliver. Also it is common to concede following the last rock of an end when no team's clocks are running.

If you have just given up a steal and want to concede, this means that your have to wait until your opponent delivers their first rock of the next end. I have been doing it wrong for a very long time.

To be clear - I am not trying to take a position on this particular situation over the weekend, of which I have only sparse understanding. But I find this is a curious rule discussion, especially because I and pretty much everyone I know has been violating it without any repercussions for as long as I have been curling.

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12-15-14 01:58PM
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Okay, I admit to being a measly level 2 official...therefore not at all knowledgeable about all things arcane and technical in the minutiae of the rulebook...but...

I am not aware of a rule saying "You can only concede while your clock is running".

I just reviewed Procedures Section 12 of the 2014-15 Rulebook (as available at http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...pionships/Rules , jump to page 35). There is nothing regarding concessions there. There is a brief line in Rule R.11h "A team concedes a game only when it is the delivering team", but that is the only restriction I can find on when a team can concede.

It made sense for that rule to be interpreted as "Your clock must be running to concede" when there was always a clock running under the old timing rules. However, since Thinking Time now means that for a good 40% of the game time, there isn't a clock running, that interpretation is not valid any longer in my opinion.

I'd argue that a concession should be able to be legitimately made after a team's shots come to rest but before they yield the house to the other team (or even immediately thereafter, in good faith). This would allow a team to decide "Okay, that shot we just threw made it so we can't win, time to concede.", which seems like an appropriate thing to occur, but is banned by this interpretation of the rule.

Fortunately, this isn't having a massive impact on advancement in *this case*, since it wasn't the GNCC rep that got determined, just the standby runner up (although, if a "lucky loser" situation occurs...), but I would think this should get clarified quickly.

I'm not ascribing any blame or doubt or disparagement on anyone involved, this is one of those "tough cases make bad law" situations, and it sounds like everyone acted correctly, in the letter of the rule...we just need to change the letter.

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12-15-14 04:12PM
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Seems to me that Drummie should forfeit that "win"

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12-15-14 04:16PM
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Re: More GNCC info

quote:
Originally posted by VAcurler
Thinking time was being used all weekend and a certain saxophone player/curler did make a cameo appearance on the Stopera team on Sunday for the last two games.


Actually the saxophone player also played on Friday when Austin the younger could not make it.

I spoke with some of the Plainfield team and they were telling Nina to get down to the far end and throw the rock away. Nina was debating if she needed to do that hence the time running out.

I don't think the change to thinking time impacted this situation. Both teams used a lot of time in the game.

JH

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12-15-14 05:14PM
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VAcurler
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Jeff: Thanks for the info on the Stopera team.

Alan: I believe that was the understanding of the playing teams - that red needed to be the delivering team to concede. I won't speculate about what happened on the ice between the ending of the last red shot and the clock running out as I was on the warm side of the glass.

Melvin: In an official timed game, because yellow had hammer and red was not out of rocks, they needed to play out the end. Technically speaking, you cannot concede after giving up a steal until you are the delivering team meaning your opponents need to throw their first rock. I've never seen that particular rule enforced but its in there. In club/bonspiel play everyone would agree that the game was over and red would (probably) be credited with a steal of one if yellow decided to throw away their rock.


Finally, I was thinking about the opposite scenario - what if yellow were shot (which DID NOT OCCUR). Initially I thought that the game would have been over but after re-reading the rules this same situation applies: because red would have had enough rocks in play to not be eliminated, the game could not end until the yellow threw their last rock.

Jason

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12-15-14 07:17PM
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On one level I understand her having to throw the stone, since it's theoretically possible that she would someone have a massive brain fart, or a huge cramp or something and somehow screw up the "Get the stone over the near T and into the sideline within 10 feet" draw for 0, and execute a perfect raise takeout of her own stone, rolling the shooter out of play, allowing Drummie to score the 4 for the tie....it could happen.

I mean...ask anyone in the GNCC under 10 Men's community, and they'll tell you I'm an *expert* at blowing leads....so I'm sure *I'd* figure out a way to screw that up and lose the game.

Realistically, however, I would think that situation would qualify as a "Game over, team 4 points down does not have enough material to create a tie" forced game ending, even *if* they were not willing to concede (or if the rules truly forced them not to...which is an interpretation I would not sign onto personally).

Something seems to have gone wrong here...I'm not saying it needs to be retroactively fixed, I don't even think there's recourse to do so anyhow...however...an interpretation, clarification, or out and out rules change needs to be done to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Imagine if you will that had been the 10th end of the National Championships on NBC....could you imagine the sh*tstorm which would follow...and do we really want that even being a *possibility*?

Fix the rule to account for the fact no clocks run all the time during a thinking time game. Problem solved for the future.

(and again, I want to point out I am not assigning shame or blame on anyone involved in the situation, not at all...I just want that hole in the rules closed before Murphy makes it that I'm the official on the ice having to make the call)

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12-15-14 09:35PM
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dbsdbs
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Pretty ridiculous ending. First, opponent should have conceded the game. Second, the skip should not have had to run down the ice and throw her rock at the boards -- no way it makes any sense to require the last rock to be thrown to end a game that is already over. It seems this situation should have been anticipated and covered in the rules. But since it is not, I still think the "winning" team should offer to forfeit this game.

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12-16-14 10:33AM
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runinrock
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First of all, this would never happen at the "National Championship" (and I use that term losely, becasue we all know that the bonspiel in Kalamazoo is really just about a 4 team race...but i digress) because the team with the lead would have been firing rocks down the ice as soon as their opponents' rocks stopped in order to spend only 2-3 seconds off of their "thinking time"....don't even need a broom in these situations, you are obviously going to be hitting every opponent stone, so no need to waste anytime in the hack. Also, if the team with the lead would have simply come down to the other end and got ready to throw BEFORE the Drummie team threw their last rock this whole point would be moot. Totally understand that the team should have been able to concede, not going to guess what happend on the ice during that period, but seriously, just get in the hack and throw the rock and you win. period. Hopefully this can simply be a learning experience for both teams...

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12-16-14 10:56AM
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I assume that the front end standing down the shooting end could have thrown that rock into the boards as well? What penalty would there be for going out of turn?

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12-16-14 10:59AM
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AlanMacNeill
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I'm not so sure I subscribe to that theory, ruinrock...

As I have been told of the situation by someone who was there, when Drummie threw her last stone, there was a shot in place which would have left her lying 4, which would have been enough to tie, requiring the opponent to throw an actual real shot (presumably an easy one to just hit *something*, but pressure is pressure, and misses happen). She just missed said shot (coming up crazy short), to render the game over...well...except for the interpretation of the rules.

Given that, the opposing skip being in proper "behind the house to prepare to discuss the shot" position isn't a wrong decision. The game wasn't even theoretically over until Drummie's last stone came up short.

Now...should she have been rules aware enough to know that her proper move under the strict letter of the rules was to "Run" (never run on the ice) down to the hack and slam her stone into the sideline then collect handshakes and buy beers? Yes, yes she should have...but I'm willing to bet that there's been 100 times in her life where the opponent has missed that same sort of last ditch shot, and turned and shook and voila...we're done and this turns into a nonstory we're not even discussing at this point.

I'm willing to believe a similar "Brain fart" situation could occur at "Real" Nationals, or even worlds. A quick rules patch and it's never an issue again.

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12-16-14 11:03AM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by curlny
I assume that the front end standing down the shooting end could have thrown that rock into the boards as well? What penalty would there be for going out of turn?


Per the rules, yeah, this would have worked. It would have, possibly, gotten the "offending" player kicked out of the game for deliberately curling out of turn (pretty much the harshest penalty possible)...but...at that point the game is over, so...honestly, yeah, that would be a plan.

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12-16-14 11:20AM
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Alan, all due respect but that is insane...she knows she is on the clock the only way you are GUARANTEED TO LOSE is to run out of time. just throw the rock. I have to assume she could see the clock and knew it was tight. If she only had 20 seconds or whatever then there is no need to be on the other end of the sheet at all, just stay on the delivering end and let the third put the broom down/make the call if she actually has to throw a real shot, but sounds like it was a throwaway situation any way...also sounds like you just said she played a draw on her previous shot? also insane when up 4..

I agree that the losing team should have been allowed to concede, but to be honest with you, if I am down 4, have 4 yellows in play and it is a competetive game I am not shaking hands...because crazy things can happen

Also, this type of thing would NEVER happen at nationals or worlds, and to think so is also nuts..teams run out of time sure, but not like that...

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12-16-14 11:33AM
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I don't know what her previous shot was, it was Drummie's (the skip who won the game) last shot which was the draw.

I assume (but have no evidence to back this up), that the Skip in time crunch had been throwing hits, but missing them, seeing as how there's really no other way to be throwing hammer against 4 in that sort of situation.

When things in an end go wrong, brain cramps occur. I can't fault the losing skip for her error (remember, this is the Tier 2 event Regional PLaydowns, we're not talking world class polished and practiced teams here)...I can fault the rules for allowing that brain fault to overturn a result which, on it's face, was won fairly on the ice.

The play was certainly within Drummie's rights, she's entitled to throw stones until she's out of rocks, her last stone could have left her sitting the 4 she needed...no issues with the nonconcession after 9, not at all..and, frankly, given the penalty in place for losing the clock, it's within her rights under the rules to take that hail mary shot that maybe the other team doesn't realize they're in time crunch. Under the Rules, in a Competitive Game...she did....right enough...not sure I would have done it...but I'm not in her shoes.

No issue with Reiniger being at the House End trying to figure out the shot...she should have been more time cognizant, and yeah, maybe she should have been willing to just go to the far end and throw the shot her Vice laid on the ice...but...you're in a situation where a game you thought you had won, but are now having to fight for..."I gotta figure this out" comes into play.

My only issues are with the fact that it's apparently a legitimate current interpretation that you can only concede while your clock is running, which isn't sensical in the era of thinking time (I'm not all that certain it was all that sensical during running time either, but I'm betting that rule was put in place because of a shenanigan in the past...), and that the game isn't considered "over by lack of rocks" when the non-hammer team delivers their final stone and are not in a position where a tie is possible when it comes to rest without massive unforced error by the opposing skip.

The spirit of the game would seem to request that the rules of the game be updated a bit here...or at least that a "Ruling" be made preventing this in the future.

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12-16-14 01:41PM
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Lets clarify the rules of conceding, since there seems to some confusion here.

Section R11(h) states, "A team concedes a game only when it is the delivering team."

You are the delivering team until you relinquish the playing area to the other team. Therefore, after the last rock came to rest and Drummie was not sitting however many she needed to tie the game, she was allowed by USCA rules to concede the game.

Both of these skips have played enough competitive games to know how manage their time clock, and that its poor sportsmanship to not shake when you are out of a game. Reiniger is guilty of the former, and Drummie is guilty of the latter. This may go down in the books as a win for Drummie, but I probably wouldn't put that one in the Christmas card updates.

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12-16-14 02:33PM
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Per Section II Rule 11(h), whether the clock is running or not doesn't matter, just who the delivering team is at the time of concession.

According to Section IV Rule 12(e)(iii), Reiniger wouldn't have become the delivering team until, "the playing area has been relinquished to the other team, the person in charge of the house has moved behind the back line, and the deliverer and sweepers have moved to the sides of the sheet." That doesn't happen instantaneously once the stone stops or crosses the back line. People have to take specific actions to change the delivering team, just like under the old running clock rules where your team's clock kept running until you moved out of the way.

Assuming there isn't dead time during an end where nobody is the delivering team, one could then infer that Drummie stayed the delivering team until meeting that criteria. If they would have gone directly to shake hands after missing their last shot then they should have been able to concede. Whether or not Drummie offered to concede is a different matter.

It could be argued that per Section IV Rule 12(j), the delivering team doesn't change until after teams agree upon a score. Even if the score is obvious, both teams have to agree on score and only then would the delivering team be determined for the next end. Then someone giving up a steal could concede after missing a shot, as long as they don't acknowledge the steal.

Regardless, there's no need to change the rules, the spirit of curling "...should influence both the interpretation and the application of the rules of the game..."

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12-16-14 02:34PM
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Looks like BumperUp beat me to the punch.

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12-17-14 02:27AM
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dbsdbs
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Guess the "spirit of curling", the old saw that appears in so many curling publications, was apparently not to be found at this event.

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12-17-14 07:51AM
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You missed the memo, as proven by the Spirit of the USCA...it's no longer about fellowship and fun and good spirited competition, it's now about winning.

the USOC says so, and they call the shots.

There should be no surprise that this attitude is trickling down, after all, that's the entire idea...we need to turn curling into a Professional Sport or else #OMGNOMEDALS!

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12-17-14 08:35AM
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Odd situation all around. I don't know if Wisconsin has ever timed the play downs for Clubs which has resulted in a few marathon games but has never been a major issue. They run on the honor system much like any bonspiel would.

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12-17-14 09:26AM
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quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
Odd situation all around. I don't know if Wisconsin has ever timed the play downs for Clubs which has resulted in a few marathon games but has never been a major issue. They run on the honor system much like any bonspiel would.


So the teams that go to Club Nationals have to play in timed games without any experience? Especially this year with thinking time being implemented the GNCC thought it was important to time the games. Also with 4 draws a day did not want to have the last draw be at midnight due to slow play.

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Curling Scores

W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: W5 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 8:00am CT
Giroux Final
Schapman (7) Watch Live Curling!
Johnson 10  Final
Scheel (9) Watch Live Curling!
Berg Final
Viau (9) Watch Live Curling!
Pekowitz 11  Final
Berg (7) Watch Live Curling!
M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: M5 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 7:00pm CT
Fitzgerald Final
Guentzel (10) Watch Live Curling!
Cenzalli Final
Rose (10) Watch Live Curling!
Church Final
Lannoye (10) Watch Live Curling!
Hebert Final
Brenden (9) Watch Live Curling!
M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
Lott/Lott Final
Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
Delorey Final
Lockhart (EE)
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Homan Brings Home Gold

Homan Brings Home Gold

Sydney, Canada - In front of a full house with over 4,000 spectators, Canada (photo: Stephen Fisher, World Curling) beat Switzerland by 7-5 to take gold at the BKT Tires World Women's Curling Championship 2024.

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