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| 01-05-15 09:30AM |
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2668 |
Entries Down
Interesting link from Bob Weeks
Few Entries in Edmonton
The same can be said for Region 1 of the OCA Senior Women...only 8 teams entered so they all went to the regions. Club curlers no longer want to be hammered by the elite curlers. Personally, I enjoy the competition...I know I am not going to win, but it shows me where I need to improve. The trouble is finding 3 other women who feel the same way. Most of them don't enjoy the competition and don't see it as an opportunity to learn.
The gap is growing between the top teams and the knee sliders...but soon if the associations are not careful, there will be no curlers willing to take the chance.
Something that golf does is put on training sessions for those golfers who want to get to the next level. You require a certain handicap. For curlers who want to get to the next level, you either have to go to a private curling camp where it is either good or bad or be a junior and go to one of those camps. I certainly wouldn't have the nerve to apply for any of the CCA training camps as those people are selected. I think the Provincial Associations should consider putting on something like that for those curlers who are interested. At any level - senior, scotties, brier etc...it would also be an opportunity to network with like minded curlers. At my club, they all recoil at the thought of competing except for a few.
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| 01-05-15 10:28AM |
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Shawzy
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This is why the OCA should hold on to its playdowns at all costs and not go the route of the other provinces. The wedge is being driven between the haves and have-nots of the curling world and there seems to be little means being provided of bridging the gap except the few remaining events that allow club curlers to compete with their elite counterparts.
The issue here isn't that some teams are elite - that should be encouraged - but that the system is being set up to protect their entries into events. Direct entries equals more sponsors, more money, more points on offer, and, as it becomes clearer and clearer each day, more catered to television. Teams who are seen as elite shouldn't need qualification benefits thrown at them as they should be good enough to qualify on the ice - and if they lose and someone else qualifies then one more team gets an opportunity to make the step up to the elite category.
The system as it is becoming is not set up to facilitate that transition as almost every elite team is auto-berthed to most events, including provincials. Even Howard and Koe, with teams that were not comprised of 3 retained players, were invited to the first grand slam because they were the name teams (I get that players retain individual point values in the CTRS for this purpose, but it seems ridiculous that they should be counted as a returning team in this case).
The reality is that to play the amount of events that the elite teams play you need the following things: 1) money for travel, 2) sponsors to help you along the way, 3) a job that allows you to take off Tuesday-Monday and Friday-Monday for half the year, and 4) a family that will support your jetting across the country. A team setting out on the circuit is not likely to have any of the first three unless they have had success at the junior level whereas a current elite team, especially if funded by CCA/COC, has access to the larger Tour purses (the $1500 you get for finishing second-last at a grand slam is more than most non-elite teams will see in an entire season), sponsors that come with name recognition, and have the luxury of being financially stable through curling to work flexible hours.
And with elite teams in the current system it is self-sustaining; be invited to a grand slam or auto-berth to provincials, be able to attract sponsors and money because you'll be on tv, go 1-4 at the slam and collect $1500, invest that money into travel and entry to Mickey Mouse bonspiel #235, watch your presence raise the level of points available in the Mickey Mouse, and then win the Mickey Mouse and walk home with the money and inflated points values.
The first argument anyone will make is to say that if Adam Casey and Brendan Bottcher can make it, anyone can. And that argument is fatally flawed. Not only for every Casey or Bottcher on tour is there a Don Bowser (16th on the YTD CTRS - was even higher - yet zero grand slam appearances) who either does not get an invite from the tv people at Sportsnet or does not have the required money or job flexibility to take his rightful place, but Casey and Bottcher already have the name recognition in their own rights. Three-quarters of Casey's team were World Junior Silver medallists and Casey himself got big time exposure with Gushue - therefore getting sponsorships and money should not have been a problem. The same goes for Bottcher - he's a World University champion as well as a World Junior champion. These players can hardly be classified as "coming from nowhere" like many seem to think and getting more teams to "come from nowhere" is precisely what we are talking about - and what the current system prevents.
One more thing I'd like to mention is that it has become apparent that many players who have made it to the elite level care more about keeping their spot at the top of the perch than fundamental issues in the game of curling. If Ben Hebert wants to cry on twitter that it is ridiculous that a top team should - God forbid - have to play games in the playdowns then it is clear that his viewpoint is skewed and we should not be taking elite curlers' opinions as gospel as many seem to do.
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| 01-05-15 05:11PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote:
Originally posted by Shawzy
The first argument anyone will make is to say that if Adam Casey and Brendan Bottcher can make it, anyone can. And that argument is fatally flawed. Not only for every Casey or Bottcher on tour is there a Don Bowser (16th on the YTD CTRS - was even higher - yet zero grand slam appearances) who either does not get an invite from the tv people at Sportsnet or does not have the required money or job flexibility to take his rightful place, but Casey and Bottcher already have the name recognition in their own rights. Three-quarters of Casey's team were World Junior Silver medallists and Casey himself got big time exposure with Gushue - therefore getting sponsorships and money should not have been a problem. The same goes for Bottcher - he's a World University champion as well as a World Junior champion. These players can hardly be classified as "coming from nowhere" like many seem to think and getting more teams to "come from nowhere" is precisely what we are talking about - and what the current system prevents.
Don Bowser started the year at 79th. They didn't get into Slams at the time because they didn't have enough points. Not because people don't know who they are. They've had a great season and managed to climb the rankings and are setup well to get Slam invites next season as they will rank well to start next year.
The YTD points (similar to CTRS) are used to create the beginning of next season's points. Bowser has earn 61 points this season, which puts him in 16th overall on the Year to Date. If that team sticks together, they will be in the Grand Slams next season.
For teams from Ontario, there are no excuses anymore. Play and win games and you'll get into Grand Slams. There are 4 events (including Gatineau) in Ontario that had maximum strength of field this season. And many more events with a strong number of points.
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| 01-05-15 08:12PM |
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decade
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Jan 2011
Location:
Posts: 1962 |
quote:
Originally posted by Shawzy
. One more thing I'd like to mention is that it has become apparent that many players who have made it to the elite level care more about keeping their spot at the top of the perch than fundamental issues in the game of curling. If Ben Hebert wants to cry on twitter that it is ridiculous that a top team should - God forbid - have to play games in the playdowns then it is clear that his viewpoint is skewed and we should not be taking elite curlers' opinions as gospel as many seem to do.
What are those "fundamental issues"?
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| 01-06-15 07:23AM |
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Netz
Swing Artist
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 222 |
It would seem me that the thinking is teams are not entering events because of the Elite teams, how then does this affect events such as the Fairfield, in Ontario, where two Zones did not even have a playoff to an event which goes directly to the Provincial.
I think the problem with event entries goes deeper than the Elite teams, and it has to be addressed sooner than later.
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| 01-06-15 11:06AM |
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Shawzy
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
Don Bowser started the year at 79th. They didn't get into Slams at the time because they didn't have enough points. Not because people don't know who they are. They've had a great season and managed to climb the rankings and are setup well to get Slam invites next season as they will rank well to start next year.
The YTD points (similar to CTRS) are used to create the beginning of next season's points. Bowser has earn 61 points this season, which puts him in 16th overall on the Year to Date. If that team sticks together, they will be in the Grand Slams next season.
For teams from Ontario, there are no excuses anymore. Play and win games and you'll get into Grand Slams. There are 4 events (including Gatineau) in Ontario that had maximum strength of field this season. And many more events with a strong number of points.
You do realize that there's another huge problem if a team cannot get entry to a Grand Slam based on their YTD totals alone, right?
As for your "if they stick together" comment, I will take that with the huge grain of salt that saw Howard and Koe entered into the first Grand Slam event with new teams.
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| 01-06-15 11:35AM |
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milobloom
Administrator
Registered: Mar 2005
Location: St. Albert
Posts: 839 |
quote:
Originally posted by Netz
I think the problem with event entries goes deeper than the Elite teams, and it has to be addressed sooner than later. [/B]
AGREED!
Everyone needs to slow down with the "problem" of "elite" teams. The change has happened, and as I stated in another post, this "gap" has been there for 35 years.
If you stopped the top teams from gaining auto-berths to their provincial events it won't increase the number of teams that enter into these dwindling playdowns.
This is a demographics problem, not an elite vs B league problem. I touch on this in my upcoming Curling News article (available in the january edition).
The old days are gone and the new ones are already here (and have been for some time). It's good and it's bad, but it isn't likely going back to the way it was any time soon, and it won't be due to changes made by an organizing committee. It will be because there are more curlers.
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| 01-06-15 11:41AM |
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Shawzy
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quote:
Originally posted by decade
What are those "fundamental issues"?
The most fundamental of all the issues is that of playing numbers and that is the one that I'm specifically getting at with my comment above. This is a concern at many levels of the game, as declining club memberships, closing curling clubs, and lower playdown entries can attest to. I would hone in on the following three areas for analysis and discussion: getting new members to sign up for clubs, retaining youths who pick up the game through junior school/after-school programs, and transitioning teams from the club to the elite level (and I'll talk about each one of the three and how they relate to my previous comment below).
The one area where playing numbers is not a concern is at the elite level. In Men's Canada has 4-5 teams that we can confidently send to the Worlds or Olympics and expect to return with a Gold Medal (or a medal at the very least) and in Women's we have 3 such teams. Further, we have another group of 5-6 on each side that is just slightly below that level. Combine that with the incentives on offer in terms of Olympic medals, the tv spotlight, and tour winnings (which allow players to curl full-time) and we're not in danger of losing our (Canada's) place as a world curling superpower.
Therefore, I think it's time that we stop focusing solely on the elite level and what we can do to help out the top teams and start focusing on the three areas I've identified above.
The first and second areas, getting new members to sign-up for clubs and retaining youths, represent how we continue to grow and maintain the game of curling as aging curlers hang up the brooms and/or life becomes too busy. We need new blood coming in and staying in the game in order to halt the death of curling clubs (as well as to increase funding to associations to provide such things as increased administration and better ice for major spiels). I'm not going to get into a discussion of how to do that as we could likely fill a book. However, one way that pertains directly to my previous comments is that the elite level of the sport needs to appear attainable, or even just accessible (e.g. "I have a chance to watch the best teams play in my home club"), to new curlers, especially juniors. If the elite teams are isolated at the top (i.e. only playing other elite curlers), attainability and even accessibility become difficult propositions.
The third area highlighted above pertains the most to my previous comments and is perhaps the area that requires the most attention at this point in time. Now that our elite teams are furthering the possibilities of the sport we need to devise methods of transitioning teams to that level. The one area that I see as key in this is exposing young and up-and-coming teams to elite competition as often as possible. When one says that elite teams should not have to play in playdowns or against "lesser" competition, I disagree on the grounds that the "lesser" competition will only improve by gaining the experience of playing against the elite and learning what it takes to play at that level. There are obviously limits to this - I'm not going to suggest that we go back to the days when teams had to play at the same club in a regular league (although it might drive some interest up in clubs) - but it seems petty and selfish for current elite curlers to say that they shouldn't have to play against the teams who are knocking on the door trying to get into the elite bracket themselves. How else are new elite teams supposed to get there?
There are obviously other "fundamental issues" in the game of curling (one might be the ability to provide quality ice to play on) but I don't think an exhaustive list is necessary - or even possible. At the very least though, more thought is needed on the part of fans and decision-makers when elite level players say "you should do this" - it's not always in the best interests of the game as a whole.
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| 01-15-15 07:31PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote:
Originally posted by Shawzy
You do realize that there's another huge problem if a team cannot get entry to a Grand Slam based on their YTD totals alone, right?
As for your "if they stick together" comment, I will take that with the huge grain of salt that saw Howard and Koe entered into the first Grand Slam event with new teams.
They've had a very good season, but not good enough on one year alone to qualify for the Grand Slams. The end of season Players' Championship qualifies teams on the current YTD totals, as does the new Elite 10 event.
If you don't understand how Howard and Koe qualified, then you should go look at the process. All players keep their points from the previous season, so if new teams are formed they will bring there share to the rankings. The Grand Slams are not a participation event, they're reserved for the best teams in the game and Team Bowser is just outside of that group. It takes time to earn the points required to qualify and they're very close to making it happen.
On another note, the push to include more teams in the process is something that the players expressed at the Players Summit last summer. (Yes, the elite teams wanted to see opportunities for others). As new Grand Slam events form over time, you will likely see the qualifying process expand to include teams like event winners and local sponsorship exemptions included in the fields.
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| 01-16-15 10:08AM |
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lolar3288
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 638 |
Just looking at the bigger picture, it seems curling membership as a whole is trending down. This is totally non-scientific but just talking to clubs in my area some are holding steady but most are trending down membership wise. One of the clubs I belong to has dropped about 60 memberships in two years!
Less people is going to effect all levels.
Curling needs some real concerted promoting before it's so far down the cliff it can't climb back!
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