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sussman
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2011
Location:
Posts: 25

let's not forget that the US champions regardless of points still receive a berth in the Champions Cup, which will be almost certainly an equally strong field as worlds

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Old Post 01-18-17 03:21PM
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Three
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 249

quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Tuck I agree that some points need to go to Continental Teams. But moving away from that argument, here is a quick synopsis of how Team USA for worlds works right now. It was changed for this year, and I think that it is better than it used to be, could be better still, but OK for now.

First Situation
As of January 24 (or when OOM pts are updated for this weekends events), if you are Top 25 in OOM YTD points, then it is Win at nationals and you go to worlds. This is based upon 8 events, like OOM uses. Looks like for this year that will only apply to McCormick and Roth, with Brown having an outside chance needing to at least make the playoffs this weekend. Sinclair seems to have lost that by going to the Continental Cup rather than going to Europe last weekend.

Second Situation
National Champ was not in first situation (win and go). They award points for the US Nationals (First – 110 points, second – 85 points and third 65 points). Then they look at Top 3 finishers at Nationals. Whoever has most OOM points is team USA for world champs. However, there is a slight catch. OOM normally uses best 8 events. But if we get to this, they look at only a teams best 6 events, and of those 6, only 4 can be US based events.

So no one has to click to find it, here are the current US standings (I don’t think that I missed anyone but apologize in advance if I did).

Men
McCormick – 19 – 159pts
Brown – 26 – 117pts
Shuster – 29 – 109pts
Clark – 32 – 97pts
Fenson – 76 – 40pts

Women
Roth – 19 – 154pts
Sinclair – 29 – 113pts
Christensen – 32 – 92pts
Shultz – 69 – 46pts



So if Sinclair defeats Roth in the finals they don't get to go to the World's. Crazy. By my math Roth's top 5 OOM = 125.9 and Sinclair's is 94.1 (both include at least two non-USA events). Throw in the 25 pt differential for the Nationals and Sinclair can't catch Roth if she beats Roth in the finals. Wow, say what you will about a Champions Cup entry but can you imagine what that would feel like before the game started? You'd be sick in the pit of your gut knowing the win gets you a paper title at best.

Top level US curling is pretty good. They should just let the Nationals winner go to the World's no questions asked. The chances of some "unknown" team winning it is pretty slim. At this point USA curling is getting in the way of its own HPP program by having one HPP team potentially "rob" another HPP team of its world's birth. Just my two cents.

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Old Post 01-18-17 03:47PM
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dan in la
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

quote:
Originally posted by Three


So if Sinclair defeats Roth in the finals they don't get to go to the World's. Crazy.



It's possible the same could happen if Shuster beat McCormick in the finals on the men's side. (Current gap between the two is 50 points.)

Shuster is at 109 OOM points year to date. 25th place is 120 points, but it's almost certain to increase this weekend, as a number of teams in th3 25-40 range are in action in Arizona and Germany.

The Arizona event should have an SFM rating of around 5, meaning the winner would get around 35 OOM points. If Shuster can make the finals of the event, he should make it to the top 25. If he loses in the semifinals, it's dicey.

Shuster vs. McCormick is scheduled for 11:00 a.m. Mountain time on Friday. Hopefully it will be available for streaming. The winner gets a big edge in qualifying out of the round robin.

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Old Post 01-18-17 05:13PM
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curlky
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 501

quote:
Originally posted by Three


So if Sinclair defeats Roth in the finals they don't get to go to the World's. Crazy. By my math Roth's top 5 OOM = 125.9 and Sinclair's is 94.1 (both include at least two non-USA events). Throw in the 25 pt differential for the Nationals and Sinclair can't catch Roth if she beats Roth in the finals. Wow, say what you will about a Champions Cup entry but can you imagine what that would feel like before the game started? You'd be sick in the pit of your gut knowing the win gets you a paper title at best.

Top level US curling is pretty good. They should just let the Nationals winner go to the World's no questions asked. The chances of some "unknown" team winning it is pretty slim. At this point USA curling is getting in the way of its own HPP program by having one HPP team potentially "rob" another HPP team of its world's birth. Just my two cents.



Love or hate the system, everyone knows it going in. And BS that you’d be sick to your stomach, perhaps disappointed. A US National Title is a huge accomplishment in itself with no other reward.

Plus this system, which has it obvious downsides, has done very well to encourage our teams to go play in elite events and events outside of the US, which has led to them getting better.

Top level US curling is pretty good, maybe not yet great, but pretty good. The issue is that mid-level US curling is not pretty good. A poor showing by a US team at the worlds can cost the US a spot in teh Olympics, which would crush USA curling as a whole. I am not talking about the organization, I am talking about the membership growth that comes as a direct result of the Olympics.

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Old Post 01-19-17 09:59AM
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IMWright
Hitting Paint

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 183

quote:
Originally posted by curlky


Love or hate the system, everyone knows it going in. And BS that you’d be sick to your stomach, perhaps disappointed. A US National Title is a huge accomplishment in itself with no other reward.

Plus this system, which has it obvious downsides, has done very well to encourage our teams to go play in elite events and events outside of the US, which has led to them getting better.

Top level US curling is pretty good, maybe not yet great, but pretty good. The issue is that mid-level US curling is not pretty good. A poor showing by a US team at the worlds can cost the US a spot in teh Olympics, which would crush USA curling as a whole. I am not talking about the organization, I am talking about the membership growth that comes as a direct result of the Olympics.



I don't think a poor showing by a US team would crush US Curling (we've had a few of those already and it's still gaining interest); how many dedicated facilities have come online in the last few years? Curling with or without the US on TV during the Olympics, I feel, will still bring people in. Curling has gotten solid ratings during the Olympics. If the US was not part of it, would it still get the same rating? Hard to say; there may be a slight dip, but I truly think people will still watch and one would see a boost in interest/membership. 95% of the people I talk to at other clubs have healthy membership numbers.

I have no problem in supporting certain teams, I question the way those teams are determined. In Canada, the winner of the Brier/Scotties gets some money/funding/support for the next year. And at next years Brier/Scotties, if another team wins, then they get that support/money/funding. It's determined out on the ice, not by committee.

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Old Post 01-19-17 10:25AM
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curlky
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 501

quote:
Originally posted by IMWright
I don't think a poor showing by a US team would crush US Curling.


I don't think USA placing last in the Olympics would hurt curling in the US. I think that the USA team not being in the Olympics would hurt. So many people are like me and will watch the US team compete in anything. But a lot of people dont care to watch 2 random nations in an event they dont care about. But, as you said, purely speculation on each of our parts.


quote:
Originally posted by IMWright
In Canada... It's determined out on the ice, not by committee.


But Canadian curling is not US curling. Just a quick stat about the women only.

Canada's women have 16 teams in the top 25, and 30 teams in the top 50 and 104 teams in the top 150.

US's women have 1 team in the top 25, and 3 teams in the top 50 and 7 teams in the top 150.

Now granted there is a huge advantage geographically in the area between 50 and 150 for Canada, but my point still holds, which is at this point, it is not fair to compare what works in Canada with what works in the US?

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Old Post 01-19-17 11:32AM
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IMWright
Hitting Paint

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 183

quote:
Originally posted by curlky


I don't think USA placing last in the Olympics would hurt curling in the US. I think that the USA team not being in the Olympics would hurt. So many people are like me and will watch the US team compete in anything. But a lot of people dont care to watch 2 random nations in an event they dont care about. But, as you said, purely speculation on each of our parts.




But Canadian curling is not US curling. Just a quick stat about the women only.

Canada's women have 16 teams in the top 25, and 30 teams in the top 50 and 104 teams in the top 150.

US's women have 1 team in the top 25, and 3 teams in the top 50 and 7 teams in the top 150.

Now granted there is a huge advantage geographically in the area between 50 and 150 for Canada, but my point still holds, which is at this point, it is not fair to compare what works in Canada with what works in the US?



A Canadian team wins the Brier/Scotties, they get funding and go to worlds. That's the aspect of Canadian curling I compare. It's fair to compare when a USA team cleans up at Nationals, wins, doesn't get go to Worlds, AND doesn't even become part of the HPP; that is the comparison I made to Canada. The argument is this prevents a team from becoming "hot" for one week and then going to worlds and losing. I guess I wouldn't call Brady Clark a low level team that just happened to have a good week and win.

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Old Post 01-19-17 12:52PM
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 757

I'm with IMWright in this discussion.

Just as the Brier championship brings team funding, so should HPP funding go along with the US Championship. Especially if you agree with CurlKy that "the chances of some unknown rink winning the [US title] is pretty slim." Why even allow for the possibility of a meaningless US championship game? Yes, I know that winning the championship should be a big deal but the really big prize is going to Worlds.

I also think IMWright is right on importance of US presence in Olympic curling. Vancouver Olympics was pretty much a disaster for USA. Is watching a last place team really going to bring more viewers than watching 2 other "random" teams that play better? I think the argument that USA has to be in the Olympics is a red herring that has been used to justify some pretty questionable policies of USA Curling.

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Old Post 01-19-17 01:56PM
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ChiefIceMinion
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Nov 2012
Location: In the crawlspace
Posts: 83

quote:
Originally posted by IMWright


I don't think a poor showing by a US team would crush US Curling (we've had a few of those already and it's still gaining interest); how many dedicated facilities have come online in the last few years? Curling with or without the US on TV during the Olympics, I feel, will still bring people in. Curling has gotten solid ratings during the Olympics. If the US was not part of it, would it still get the same rating? Hard to say; there may be a slight dip, but I truly think people will still watch and one would see a boost in interest/membership. 95% of the people I talk to at other clubs have healthy membership numbers.



It's anecdotal but I did have a couple of coworkers ask me questions about non-US games they watched (late at night, even) during the Sochi Olympics. I'm inclined to think that curling is "out there" enough that when the Olympic matches are being broadcast in the US they'll be watched, even if the US team is not playing in them.

The question is how much coverage does curling get on TV if no US team is competing?

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Old Post 01-19-17 04:18PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2574

Looks like Leichter will be the HPP pick for Men's Nationals. Team Wood gets in Women's. Would not have been my picks, but good luck to both teams.

I do dread the possible scenario where Sinclair wins the gold over Roth in the finals. Team Roth getting significant points in Switzerland while Team Sinclair was at the C Cup in Vegas bothers me.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 01-26-17 07:49PM
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