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misty1
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Registered: Sep 2011
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Posts: 4916

Re: Missing Japan

quote:
Originally posted by BumperUp
Unsurprisingly, European teams are bringing rear. It's disappointing that the 2016 silver medalist Japanese team isn't at this event to stir things up. They were a delight to watch last year. I am unclear as to why we still limit Asia Pacific to 2 berths.

At some point, the WCF needs to consider the strength of the Asian teams. The depth of field in Europe does not justify the number of berths coming out of that region in the women's field.

Last place at the women's world championship has been held by at least one European team every year since 2000 except one, where it was held by an Asian team. Two times there was an Asian team tied with a European team for last. It's a shame to see strong teams sitting on the bench because the WCF is unwilling to change the way we have always done it.



denmark may be bringing up the rear but china is 2-5 with italy and south korea is 3-4, they arent exactly lighting it up.

i had a long argument against this but i erased it to just say this:

europe is never, ever going to agree to give up a slot, its not gonna happen. so just get used to this

i would propose that you could expand the field from 12-14 teams. give asia a third spot and either give a 9th to europe or a 3rd to the americas, which would likely be brazil.

then you could move from the current round robin format to what the brier and scotties are doing and split the field into 2 groups of 7. the top 4 teams from each group move on to a championship pool.

this way europe stays happy and asia gets the 3rd team everyone thinks they should have.

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Old Post 03-21-17 04:27PM
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BumperUp
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Dec 2014
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Posts: 14

Re: Re: Missing Japan

quote:
Originally posted by misty1


denmark may be bringing up the rear but china is 2-5 with italy and south korea is 3-4, they arent exactly lighting it up.

i had a long argument against this but i erased it to just say this:




Agreed, Asia definitely isn't crushing the field, but again, the numbers over the past 16 years aren't in Europe's favor. I know it's unlikely to happen, but I would be interested in hearing the argument you deleted.

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Old Post 03-21-17 04:30PM
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misty1
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Re: Re: Re: Missing Japan

quote:
Originally posted by BumperUp


Agreed, Asia definitely isn't crushing the field, but again, the numbers over the past 16 years aren't in Europe's favor. I know it's unlikely to happen, but I would be interested in hearing the argument you deleted.



i just wanted to point out that most of asia's success has only come from one country. asian teams over the last decade have won 4 medals. all of them have come from the women. and in that 3 of the 4 have been won by china. not multiple chinese teams either, just one. bingyu wang. chinese teams have done nothing since bingyu had stepped away, they havent even made the playoffs once. now, japan made the final last year and south korea threw away a bronze in 2012. however aside from that the majority of asia's success has come from one chinese team

analyzing it more all of asia's success has all come from the women. morozumi has had 2 good appearances but he's still yet to win a medal. china has had 1 appearance in the playoffs since they came onto the scene in 2008 and most of the time they are a middle of the road team at best. there's not much support to the idea that the asian men should get a 3rd spot because they havent done much of anything. and again most of their notable results come from one country and one team, in this case morozumi.

you cant award the asian women a 3rd spot and not give it to the men but do the men really deserve that 3rd spot?. i really dont think so

this argument that asia deserves a 3rd spot wont gain any traction until the mens teams can start doing better than they do. and south korea needs to show they they can have a decent result..they've yet to do that. i think what also needs to happen is the other asian womens teams need to actually win medals. again, japan is the 1 other team to win a medal for asia. south korea never has

so yes, most of europe's success has come from 5 countries (sweden, switzerland, scotland, russia and denmark) but almost all of asia's comes from just the 1 team and one gender

id be curious to know what you think of my proposal to do what the brier and scotties are doing and expanding to 14 and playing in groups

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Old Post 03-21-17 05:03PM
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Manitoba Legend
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Missing Japan

quote:
Originally posted by misty1


i just wanted to point out that most of asia's success has only come from one country. asian teams over the last decade have won 4 medals. all of them have come from the women. and in that 3 of the 4 have been won by china. not multiple chinese teams either, just one. bingyu wang. chinese teams have done nothing since bingyu had stepped away, they havent even made the playoffs once. now, japan made the final last year and south korea threw away a bronze in 2012. however aside from that the majority of asia's success has come from one chinese team

analyzing it more all of asia's success has all come from the women. morozumi has had 2 good appearances but he's still yet to win a medal. china has had 1 appearance in the playoffs since they came onto the scene in 2008 and most of the time they are a middle of the road team at best. there's not much support to the idea that the asian men should get a 3rd spot because they havent done much of anything. and again most of their notable results come from one country and one team, in this case morozumi.

you cant award the asian women a 3rd spot and not give it to the men but do the men really deserve that 3rd spot?. i really dont think so

this argument that asia deserves a 3rd spot wont gain any traction until the mens teams can start doing better than they do. and south korea needs to show they they can have a decent result..they've yet to do that. i think what also needs to happen is the other asian womens teams need to actually win medals. again, japan is the 1 other team to win a medal for asia. south korea never has

so yes, most of europe's success has come from 5 countries (sweden, switzerland, scotland, russia and denmark) but almost all of asia's comes from just the 1 team and one gender

id be curious to know what you think of my proposal to do what the brier and scotties are doing and expanding to 14 and playing in groups



The Brier & Scotties play over a lengthy near 10 day run - but before well over 100,000 people, sometimes as many as 200,000 combined. All draws are televised and there's usually a buzz in the crowd. Subjecting competitors, fans and broadcasters to 9 or 10 days of this - where some teams are barely curling over 50% is plum out irresponsible.

I'd actually be more for cutting it back to 10 teams and reducing the event to 7 days. I know you'll come back with the importance of spreading the curling seed into more countries but not at the risk of making your world ladies championship into a joke.

Let the word spread via more extensive promotion and marketing of the Asian pan-pacific championships, the Europeans and more.

On a side note - I wouldn't be opposed to maintaining 12 entraints into the Olympics. And if they were to expand to 14 - or even 16 (at the Olympics only) I wouldn't mind at all if North America (Canada, USA) were allowed 3 teams (vs. the current two) and possibly same for Europe. That way you could conceivable have an Olympics with Jennifer Jones & Rachel Homan in the same field (or Alina Patz and/or Binia Feltscher, Vanna Tirinzoni, etc.)

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Old Post 03-21-17 05:35PM
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BumperUp
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Dec 2014
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Missing Japan

quote:
Originally posted by misty1

id be curious to know what you think of my proposal to do what the brier and scotties are doing and expanding to 14 and playing in groups



You make some good points, and I do like your proposal. I don't really see the Americas needing another berth at this point because the Brazilians aren't quite knocking at the door just yet and, as I understand it, don't even have ice in their country (I thought their teams were based out of Canada and US). I would probably start at 1 extra berth to Asia and continue with the straight RR rather than require pools.

I have been a bit disappointed by Team Kim on the women's side. They have looked strong the past couple years and I thought they would have fared better. They do seem to be a streaky but EunJung Kim is on, she makes everything.

As for the men, I think things are definitely changing. Not sure if you caught any of the Asia-Pacific Championships men's games, but the 1-4 semi (Japan/S. Korea) was incredible, and Japan just barely edged out S. Korea. If Team Kim (men) brought a even half of the intensity from that game, they would be a force at worlds.

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Old Post 03-21-17 05:41PM
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decade
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Missing Japan

quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


The Brier & Scotties play over a lengthy near 10 day run - but before well over 100,000 people, sometimes as many as 200,000 combined. All draws are televised and there's usually a buzz in the crowd. Subjecting competitors, fans and broadcasters to 9 or 10 days of this - where some teams are barely curling over 50% is plum out irresponsible.



Gee ML, get your stats right. Attendance at this years scotties
around 56000. The scotties have not drawn anywhere near 100000
for at least 10 years, Likely the London event,

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Old Post 03-21-17 06:18PM
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Manitoba Legend
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Missing Japan

quote:
Originally posted by decade


Gee ML, get your stats right. Attendance at this years scotties
around 56000. The scotties have not drawn anywhere near 100000
for at least 10 years, Likely the London event,



My mistake. Didn't make it clear I was talking about Scotties & Brier combined attendance. Don't think there's ever been a Scotties that drew 100,000+, perhaps Regina or Saskatoon.

Record for Brier attendance is well over 200,000. No?

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decade
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Missing Japan

quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


My mistake. Didn't make it clear I was talking about Scotties & Brier combined attendance. Don't think there's ever been a Scotties that drew 100,000+, perhaps Regina or Saskatoon.

Record for Brier attendance is well over 200,000. No?


( aft
Regina after SS olympic win 158 k
Red deer 2004 112K
London 2005 105 k

Believe Brier is 280 K - Edmonton

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Old Post 03-21-17 10:47PM
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Manitoba Legend
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I warned everyone not to write off Eve Muirhead - even after some silly outings.

She's just too good (great) an individual curler - and while her team doesn't match Eve's skill-set they're not bad - about 2nd quarter of the teams (ie. 4, 5 or 6)

Russia also quietly wending their way back into the mix.

You can never write off Ladyhawk (Paetz) but she might be the biggest disappointment thus far (other than China & the putrid Danes). Only difference between Paetz & Wang is that Paetz still has a decent chance to advance to the playoffs. China is stone cold OUT.

The smooth-slidin' Nina Paetz seems to have played herself out of playoff contention - just couldn't win when it counted!

Right now Homan is a wrecking machine - so whoever is served up to her in the playoffs will be major underdogs.

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Old Post 03-22-17 09:37AM
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misty1
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so rachel is looking good to go through undefeated in the round robin unless italy or denmark can knock her off..not likely

sweden should get 2nd place but have a really tough closing 3 against south korea, china and russia. they should win 2 of those at least but none will be easy

russia is in pole position to claim 3rd. final 3 games against sweden, united states and china. they could win all 3 but they're likely to drop at least 1

the final spot is a huge battle. scotland, switzerland, germany,czech republic and south korea and the united states all in the mix

scotland rebounded with 2 great wins today and with the czech republic and germany to close at 7-4 but neither of those 2 teams can be underestimated.

switzerland , who started 4-0 have lost 4 of their last 5 and their last 2 arent easy. 5-6 is possible but 6-5 is probably more likely. they can with the final 2 but dont know if they will

germany has czech republic and scotland. really the czech republic game is a toss up. heavy underdogs against scotland but ..you never know

czech republic has scotland and germany. much like switzerland their hot start has dissolved and they've lost 5 of their last 6. but the 2 games left germany is very winnable and then with scotland being inconsistent you never know but they will likely lose that

south korea has switzerland and the united states. 2 tricky games

united states has switzerland and south korea. 2 teams they have had good success against so very much both winnable

overall its looking like 5 losses could get you something. likely everyone will be needing russia to lose their last 2 and scotland to go at least 1-1. russia losing 2 is unlikely . think 5 losses will be close but 4 will probably end up being the cut off

right now final 4 looks like scotland, canada, sweden and russia but with the way this event has gone im not confident thats how it'll end out

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Old Post 03-22-17 09:43AM
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misty1
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
I warned everyone not to write off Eve Muirhead - even after some silly outings.

She's just too good (great) an individual curler - and while her team doesn't match Eve's skill-set they're not bad - about 2nd quarter of the teams (ie. 4, 5 or 6)

Russia also quietly wending their way back into the mix.

You can never write off Ladyhawk (Paetz) but she might be the biggest disappointment thus far (other than China & the putrid Danes). Only difference between Paetz & Wang is that Paetz still has a decent chance to advance to the playoffs. China is stone cold OUT.

The smooth-slidin' Nina Paetz seems to have played herself out of playoff contention - just couldn't win when it counted!

Right now Homan is a wrecking machine - so whoever is served up to her in the playoffs will be major underdogs.



i dont know. you can look at the standings and think "wow, she's had it easy" but she could easily have 3 losses by now.

if sidorova hadnt hogged her rock in the extra she could have won

south korea let canada off the hook a number of times and even still were close.

the united states had them. one bad end in the 9th was what cost them that game. they've been good but they havent been as dominant as what the standings would have you believe. maybe a little lucky to be 9-0. so when it comes to the playoffs, yeah they will be the favorites but i wouldnt say overwhelming favorites

Last edited by misty1 on 03-22-17 at 09:48AM

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Old Post 03-22-17 09:46AM
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Manitoba Legend
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1


i dont know. you can look at the standings and think "wow, she's had it easy" but she could easily have 3 losses by now.

if sidorova hadnt hogged her rock in the extra she could have won

south korea let canada off the hook a number of times and even still were close.

the united states had them. one bad end in the 9th was what cost them that game. they've been good but they havent been as dominant as what the standings would have you believe. maybe a little lucky to be 9-0. so when it comes to the playoffs, yeah they will be the favorites but i wouldnt say overwhelming favorites



Great teams know how to win with their B games - sometimes even a B- game gets 'er done! Rachel Homan has a great team. When Jennifer Jones was way out of sorts or throwing up B games, she'd usually lose. Rachel just applies far too much pressure for other skips to bear - even a stellar skip like Hasselborg caved in under constant duress.

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Old Post 03-22-17 10:14AM
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Manitoba Legend
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Red Bandana Tribute

Jo Courtney wearing a red bandana today flooded yours truly with memories of one of the great rock 'n roll songs of all-time. So dedicated to Ms. Courtney here are the Coasters, with 1957's 'Down Mexico Way'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kahp_kmOFzQ

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Old Post 03-22-17 10:17AM
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sternwheeler
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interesting now that three teams have a 5 and 4 record

Scotland, Russia and Germany.... who said with 4 loses will get you nothing? tomorrow's draw should determine if there will be any tie breakers ....I like Canada's chances of winning the one two game and go directly to the gold medal game

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Old Post 03-22-17 11:14AM
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Deliverer
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If Hasselborg had not done so well as a Junior I wouldn't

question her record since that time.

But clearly, she's gone in the wrong direction since beating

Homan in 2010.

In terms of Grand Slams, she has never been able to proceed

past the semi-finals over a six year period.

That's the same fate as Ott suffered from except Ott never

got past the SF's over a 7 year period!

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Old Post 03-22-17 11:35AM
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Manitoba Legend
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Homan vs. Jones Comparison

Time for yours truly to do his obligatory Homan vs. Jones comparisons. Knowing full well it will draw out all The Flame Kings, causing them to ask the local fleabag hotels they reside at when Free Wi-Fi hour occurs.

HOMAN vs. JONES

Two of the greatest teams Canadian womens curling has ever produced. Gonna leave all the others out of it, including Sandra cuz these two teams have dominated Canadian women's curling for over 12 years.

A. Current player comparisons (keep in mind Jones has cobbled together a myriad of players over her storied career, at least 3 3rds, 3 2nd and 5 or 6 leads; while Homan has pretty much had the same lineup for most of her younger career - the Homan/Miskew back end being legendary and long-running - and Lisa Weagle coming to them after they graduated to womens from juniors. Courtney coming in for Kreviazuk 3 years ago.

Lead: Both great leads - Dawn M. is still the finest lead in the world, but showed minor deterioration this season as the entire Jones team did. Super body of work - a worlds, 3 STOHs, several STOH silver or bronze plus Olympic gold. Not to mention a cameo appearance as 2nd player on Jenn Hanna's Ontario championship team.
Dawn wins because she's a better draw player than Lisa, plain and simple. Lisa gets bonus points for her amazing "Weagle shot" and both ladies are adept at tossing takeouts when required. Both strong as bull brushers - slight edge to Dawn cuz she's a bit more compact - at 5'5" vs. the much taller 5'10" Weagle.

2nd: Up til this year Jill Officer was probably the best 2nd in the game. This year, based on Ontario playdowns, STOH and 3/4 way thru worlds things have changed. Joanne Courtney might not only be the best 2nd in the game - she might be the best 2nd EVER. Her nuance game a bit better than Jill, her delivery is far more stable (vs. Jilly who appears to wobble every 3rd or 4th delivery) and while Officer can still thru the high and heavy rum-runners Courtney's stability and delivery give her a slight edge overall. Brush-wise both women are demons - Courtney is really into it - can go or withdraw in a micro-second; Officer not so much. Physically, Jo Courtney might also be the strongest player in the sport. In her prime that title went to Jill Officer.

3rd: Good fight between Kaitlyn Lawes and Emma Miskew. 2 of the best 3rds in the current game - 2 of the best EVER. Kaitlyn might be slightly better in some technical aspects; her delivery is amongst the best, she can toss fairly big weight for a small woman and she's a heckuva brusher to boot.
However, even given Emma has yet to win either a world title or Olympic appearance I truly believe Emma has surpassed Kaitlyn in other areas - mostly team support and communication. Kaitlyn has done a wonderful job deferring to the at-times temperamental Jones, not getting into disputes and doing what JJ wants to do. Much more synergy between long-term friends/allies Emma & Rachel. Rachel really leans on Emma (and the other members, given they have no on-ice coach) for advice, probabilities and final decisions. Kaitlyn puts in her two cents worth, but make no mistake, Jones runs the Jones team, everyone else is a window-dresser.
In terms of ice-reading, weight judgement and Plan Bs Emma is far advanced. Whenever Kaitlyn tries to assert herself on ice-reading or line calls she's quickly usurped and overruled by Jones turning up the volume and literally going berserk.
Brush wise, Kaitlyn is a magnificent brusher for a 5'2", 105 to 110 lb. woman but Emma with over 145 lbs. bearing down on her stick is slightly superior.
I admit Emma needs a world title notch on her belt plus an Olympic medal to square off the details but right now she's slightly superior to Lawes in almost all areas - except perhaps for mechanics.

SKIPS: Before Homan came along the greatest delivery of a curling stone was Jennifer Jones. She was super strong balance-wise and usually was tight on the stick. Homan's delivery and tracking of heavy-weight shots makes her the superior and more accurate hitter - not just this year where she's far superior. I'm talking total body of work.
Jones built her resume notched up the scalps of some very good to great teams during her storied career by being the mentally strongest skip out there. Not flamboyant like Coco Jones - just super strong when things were going badly and able to climb back into games she had no business even being in. Homan was far more temperamental from her early days as a graduated junior to about 2 years back - but her solid work with Earle Morris, and now Adam Kingsbury has turned her into a responsible and totally in-charge skip who's lightened up her intensity, occasionally uses humour to buck up her troops and has become the modicum of decorum and responsibility on the tee. Jones, now more often than ever is easily exasperated and get really get down on her troops. On Team Homan, everyone is treated equally. That's why Jo & Lisa (mostly Jo) stick their noses into strategy conferences longer than 10 seconds. And Joanne is not afraid to put her two cents worth in.
Rachel seems to be able to read ice and weight better than Jones ever did (two big Jones weaknesses)

I don't subtract points because Jones has used nearly a dozen curlers during her STOH, World & Olympic ride. In fact that might add points - its very difficult to work with so many different players and still be superb - and win 5 golds, 4, silver and 3 bronze in 13 trips to the Scotties well.

OVERALL:
Rachel is now a better skip and leader than JJ. Team Homan is easily superior to Team Jones.

If one goes to points out of 100 here's how I'd rate both teams and all 8 players:

Team RH = 94
Team JJ = 87

Dawn McEwen - 91
Lisa Weagle - 89

Jill Officer - 82
Jo Courtney - 84

Kaitlyn Lawes - 86
Emma Miskew - 88

Jennifer Jones - 84
Rachel Homan - 90


PS. Up until this year I'd have also rated Jones as the superior big-game hunter, final shot slayer. But Rachel has shown me her metal during the STOH - and some beauty final stones at worlds. Jones doesn't make near as many big shots as she used to. Rachel seems to make almost all of them.

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Old Post 03-22-17 05:39PM
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Squiggsy
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It continues to be ridiculous that you rate Miskew above Lawes. I'm not discounting Miskew, but Lawes is a superior player.

Lawes has been to the Scotties 5 times. She has been the 1st team All-Star all five times. Miskew has been to the Scotties 4 times. She has finished as the 1st team All-Star twice, and in both years Lawes wasn't there. In the two times Lawes was there, Miskew was ranked 3rd and 4th.

I'll say it again, I'm not sure why you continue to rank Emma above Kaitlyn, but the stats, video, and accolades don't back your position up. Maybe you're doing it to give more praise to Jones from winning, but if you looked at it objectively, you'd see you were wrong.

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Old Post 03-22-17 06:19PM
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Wonder if Rachel, Emma & Lisa have a team meeting and decide to rest Joanne for tonite's match vs. hapless Italy?

Probably not, they're not prone to change winning formulas - but JoJo has been such a workhorse for them - shooting lights out and brushing to infinity. Besides, Kreviazuk needs a bit of screen time.

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Old Post 03-22-17 08:12PM
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misty1
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i got to say, i love this chaos. i love not knowing who will be there at the end. its exciting and every draw is going to have a game that means something tomorrow. its actually really nice not to know who will be there before the draw even happens. you have an idea but thats not guaranteed.

i can only hope the mens worlds is half as unpredictable and exciting

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Old Post 03-22-17 08:56PM
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 837

I finally have to agree with ML on this one. Jennifer Jones did not lose a single game at the 2017 Scotties in St. Catharines and has yet to post a losing score at the 2017 Womens Worlds....oh wait...

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Old Post 03-22-17 10:40PM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10770

With first place sewn up R.C. Homan has taken to what she's always done best - SLAUGHTERING FAWNS!

Tonite's menu - Italian Pizza

Raytch already has a silver & bronze in world championship rides.

Nothing less than gold will satisfy these professional curling ladies from Ottawa.

Pretty much assured of silver - but keep in mind there's at least one killer still in contention - and her name is Eve Muirhead - and as Joan McCusker just tweeted me "There's No Quit in Eve Muirhead".

Looks like Ladyhawke's journey will end tonite - as they trail Nina USA badly.

Sweden will also be there this weekend. Despite their great play and fine percentages I repeat my one negative assertion about Anna Hasselborg - she's simply NOT A KILLER!

Barring some upsets should be Canada vs. Sweden in the 1-2
Scotland vs. Russia in the 3-4. Too little too late for smooth-throwing Nina Roth.

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AK267
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Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 1619

Team USA. One day playing good against the top dogs, the next getting sent to the doghouse with sub par play.

5-5 so far...just hoping they get enough points for the big dance.


Just seems, IMO, that the worlds have become more-and-more a "metric". Medals are great but qualifier points are king.

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