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04-29-15 11:50PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Apr 2009
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Re: Here we go again....too silly

quote:
Originally posted by SillyRock


said it before...this program is obviously just a big cover up. the coaches and staff really just want usa curling to fail while they collect a check. i mean have you met any of those people? no experience, no knowledge of the game, and not a one of them is passionate about what they do. you'd have to be crazy to think that they're just trying to do the best possible job for usa curling and the athletes and put us on the podium again and keep us there for years to come.

So silly I can barely keep typing.




Good, I hope you stop typing because your posts are terrible

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04-30-15 07:35AM
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Re: Re: Here we go again....too silly

quote:
Originally posted by mgulseth



Good, I hope you stop typing because your posts are terrible



I think you may be missing the point of SillyRock's posts.

-BA

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04-30-15 10:15AM
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nom de broom
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Re: Re: Re: Here we go again....too silly

quote:
Originally posted by B Anderson


I think you may be missing the point of SillyRock's posts.

-BA



Internet Rule #1: If a comment can be interpreted as either sincere or sarcastic, respondents will choose whatever one presents them with the greater opportunity to be offended.

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04-30-15 10:30AM
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B Anderson
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Here we go again....too silly

quote:
Originally posted by nom de broom


Internet Rule #1: If a comment can be interpreted as either sincere or sarcastic, respondents will choose whatever one presents them with the greater opportunity to be offended.




I love it.

Has anyone written a patent for "smart formatting" in internet forums? Analyze the text for possible sarcasm (or obvious sarcasm in this case), and format the text differently.

I'm going to work on that . . .

-BA

edit: maybe the reverse is what's needed since forums are filled with sarcasm. Format only sincere text

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04-30-15 11:11AM
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IMWright
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Re: Re: Here we go again....too silly

quote:
Originally posted by mgulseth



Good, I hope you stop typing because your posts are terrible



Agreed. First time is cute, the 6 other times after you say you're never posting again, tiresome. Especially since SillRock (even though it's through sarcarsm) makes statements/assumptions of what people think, which I don't think are true.

Re: SillyRock's paragraph 1

In regards to milestones being set for the entirety of usa curling and not just the hpp. I don't believe the criticism is that they were set for all US curling, but that the HPP should not take credit for Shuster's success. Yes his success can be judged and rolled up into the milestones, but the HPP had little impact on that.

Re: SillyRock's paragraph 2
On the issue of milestones vs. goals. Any papers on performance management and most organizations consider goals and milestones different. Do a quick google search.

Re: SillyRock's paragraph 3 and paragraph 4
I haven't read anything on here saying that people are thinking that statistics aren't being taken or that there isn't some evaluation process. I think the criticism is that the outward message that is being conveyed to the curling community is "just win", and if that's the only message that is being said, people will question what other things are being done (statistics being taken, evaluation process, goals). Additionally, what system of checks and balances is in place on the HPP.

Re: SillyRock's paragraph 5
Nowhere have I seen that people are thinking it's a big cover up. Many of us know many of the coaches and staff. And while they have experience and knowledge, there is question of if the current method is most effective.

So, if you're going to use sarcasm to get your points across, at least have them be based on some truth. SillyRock at some point has said he/she won't be posting again, let's hope as much, and let's get some productive discussion.

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04-30-15 03:07PM
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nom de broom
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Re: Re: Re: Here we go again....too silly

quote:
Originally posted by IMWright
SillyRock at some point has said he/she won't be posting again, let's hope as much, and let's get some productive discussion.


Productive discussion is Alan MacNeill's department.*


*Draft comment only, pending proper formatting by B Anderson

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04-30-15 03:11PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Gee...I'm...I'm touched

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05-01-15 11:03AM
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VanillaIce
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Long overdue.

First off, I don't post out here much anymore but I do follow the threads from time to time.

As others, including some athletes have stated, it's been difficult to hear and see all of the negative comments about athletes, coaches, and the HPP in general. However, as one of the staff coaches, I completely undnerstand that we are in a position to be criticized. It's just the way it works in sports. Everyone is an expert when sitting in their armchair. Frankly, I think most of it is great simply because it shows how much people actually do care about what happens and what we do even if they personally have no stake in the results whatsoever.

With regard to the milestones conversation, I think it should be noted (as SillyRock, not so gracefully attempted to do) that the quote was "USA Curling achieved five of seven annual milestones as set by the United States Olympic Committee for the 2014-15 HPP, including the fifth-place finish at the 2015 World Men's Championship." So is it really fair to say that WE'RE taking credit for Shuster's success? The USOC is the one settign the bar and isn't going to make the distinction of whether a team is in or out of the HP. They see it as USA Curling's result. Period.

That brings me to the part of this discussion (and others) that bothers me. It is the continued propagation of an "us vs. them" environment. While I can understand that there will be differing opinion on how a program should be run and who should and shouldn't be part of the National Team. The fact remains that someone who likely deserves to be considered will be left out. There is only so much space and resource and you can't keep everyone happy. It's just that simple. I appreciate some good natured competition and people pulling for teams and athletes that were on the outside fo the HPP, but the level that this was taken to this year was over the line. ALL of the athletes and coaches, in and out of the HPP, are doing what they think is best at the time. We all want the same thing and are working very hard in that effort...very hard. Yes. We make mistakes just as other coaches and athletes do. We learn from them and move on. For this reason alone I am hoping as we move forward that people can be supportive of ALL of the coaches and teams. You may not agree with the HOW but I would hope we all agree on the WHY.

On the topic of Goals and Performance and the message of "Just Win". It is unclear to me how anyone could knowingly believe or incinuate that the program is doing anything of the sort. The best comparison that I can make is a Major College or University Athletics program. Most athletes in those programs are not being paid. At the most, they are getting a scholarship. But many of them have made a CHOICE to participate in a sport they love. These teams hold yearly tryouts and evaluations to help BUILD a successful program OVER TIME. All the while trying to improve internal processes, improve facilities, improve training methods, supporting the athletes that are selected to the team to be able to deal with school, family, and work while pursuing their dreams. Again, I understand that our culture is not used to the idea of coaches making decisions especially when it comes to who plays and when, but this concept is not foriegn. We've seen the debate about this all too often but we are breaking new ground here. Working with the idea that if we begin with high level players with a willingness to work within the framework used in nearly every other team sport; and those players are all committed to working for the same goal unselfishly, then we (and the USOC) believe that over time we stand the best chance of putting poeple in the best position to perform. If done correctly, it also creates the greatest amount of flexibility within the team and creates opportunity to use players situationally. No. It's not what is typically done in our game, but it does have it's merits if you look at it outside of the box.

On evaluation and checks and balances. I can tell you that the athletes got to do a full review of staff and the program. Staff will be doing the same of eachother and the program. Athletes and staff are all accountable to each other and the organization. Just as any other business, this is a critical part of the growth and learning process. However, the call for this information, the evaluation process, or specific information about program practices to be made public as a way of being transparent would be the same as asking a player or coach from another sport to publish their playbook. As the public we don't get to see that stuff for good reason. If you really want to know what we do and why, I'd ask an athlete or call me or one of the other coaches. I'm sure they'd be happy to share some of it with you. Or better yet, come watch what happens during an event or a camp. While you won't be able to actually sit in on any of the meetings, I am sure you'd be surprised by what you actually see.

Well, that's it. Felt like I needed to vent a little. My apologies for the length and I am certain that there will be plenty of this that will get overanalyzed, taken out of context, and mispercieved. But as I said earlier, as a coach, I expect some of that. I am very proud to be a coach on the staff and very humbled by the oppoortunity to work with such great players, both in and out of the HPP. I continue to learn and grow in my role and want nothing more that to see us being a long term, relative power, on the world scene again.

Thanks for being passionate and expressing your opinions, even if they sometimes go to far.

Sincerly
John Benton
National Coach

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05-01-15 11:11AM
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AlanMacNeill
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So thank you for actually engaging, VanillaIce...

But here's your problem...

You state, quite eloquently, that you do not believe there is an "Us vs Them" environment.

That, regretfully, is contradicted by the very direction that your leadership in the HPP is taking. I don't know if you, personally, have any say in these decisions (although I suspect you do not), but your overall team does.

The "HPP is superior to Non-HPP" attitude is inherently obvious from the fact that HPP Team members are given free passes to Nationals, regardless of performance during the curling season. Hell, the HPP *JUNIOR BOYS* team got given a pass to Nationals, despite not even being the Junior Champions. If that doesn't say "HPP teams are better than anyone else", I don't know what it does say.

Few of us begrudge National Coaches the ability to pick and choose which curlers get given National Resources (Hey, someone's gotta allocate those scarse resources). We may disagree with your choices on who gets em, but ultimately, that's just a thing. However, when the HPP staff not only chooses who gets the resources, but then hands those same people, without the actual need to compete, golden tickets to our National Championship...that just ain't right.

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05-01-15 11:39AM
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Alan, you've hit the nail on the head. Its the "Golden Ticket" that creates the "us" vs "them" mentality.
John B. if the HPP has such confidence that the program is the right direction for the USCA, then have the confidence that your teams are going to EARN their spots the same way Joe Blow earns his spot. Noone should be given a free ride to Nationals. Don't devalue the prize of making it to the Nationals. The USCA Nationals should showcase the best of the best with the USA.
If the HPP teams earn their spots through the OOM points, so be it. But do not GIVE anyone a spot at Nationals without earning it. Like Smith Barney says RESPECT is EARNED not given.

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05-01-15 05:22PM
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SkipsThatSayNi
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Re: Long overdue.

quote:
Originally posted by VanillaIce


That brings me to the part of this discussion (and others) that bothers me. It is the continued propagation of an "us vs. them" environment.

Sincerly
John Benton
National Coach



Im not sure why you are wagging your finger at us. The current HP program sets up this dynamic.

Obviously, the curling community is small and full of friendships, but I know that most of the country was rooting for Schuster at Nationals. If an HP team would have won, Im equally as certain we all would have supported them at the Worlds.

Even though we help fund them (the HP Teams), they really arent our team until they go to Worlds.

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05-02-15 12:27AM
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tuck
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I've stayed out of this thread...just lurking...BUT:

Thanks, 'Nilla, for contributing. I doubt it is encouraged by some of the leadership.

Second (and the real reason I'm finally posting in this thread):

Kudos to SkipsWhoSayNi for the Monty Python reference. I think it is B. A. Anderson (birthday boy turning the big 4-0 these days) who hands out "points". I'm not sure who gives out points nor what they're good for...but you should get points.

Ben Tucker
back to other topics that I know nothing about

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05-02-15 05:46AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Thanks Tuck- Now if I could Just get my avitar to work

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05-02-15 01:20PM
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I will be honest, I have come to the other side on this. We all want to be mad at the USCA for creating a "Golden Ticket" as if this process hasn't been around for 40+ years. If you want to be mad, why don't you go back in time and write a sternly worded letter to the Norwegian Curling Association. Go ahead and lambast them for sending Dordi Nordby to worlds for 20+ years or Eigil Ramsfjell for 15 years.
The Olympics is a double edged sword. A lot of you folks were around in the late 90's when curling clubs were declining much in the same way bowling alleys were. The Olympics breathed a lot of life back into this game and you could argue, at least in the States that things are as good now as the fabled heydays of the 60's and 70's.
But its an Olympic sport now. Which means that the people who dole out the money don't care about the traditions of our sport, they see it as another spot in the bingo card they need to turn gold,silver, or bronze, or have a very good explanation why they didn't.
We want to act like the USCA is changing the game, but in reality the game changed 15 years ago, and some of us are still living in the past.

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05-02-15 08:38PM
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IMWright
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quote:
Originally posted by My three sons
Alan, you've hit the nail on the head. Its the "Golden Ticket" that creates the "us" vs "them" mentality.
John B. if the HPP has such confidence that the program is the right direction for the USCA, then have the confidence that your teams are going to EARN their spots the same way Joe Blow earns his spot. Noone should be given a free ride to Nationals. Don't devalue the prize of making it to the Nationals. The USCA Nationals should showcase the best of the best with the USA.
If the HPP teams earn their spots through the OOM points, so be it. But do not GIVE anyone a spot at Nationals without earning it. Like Smith Barney says RESPECT is EARNED not given.



Agreed. I think most people understand that not everyone can get all the resources of the HPP. But the "Golden Ticket" mentality is ridiculous and is probably a big sticking point. If the HPP is so confident in their players, they should be able to easily win their spot. Ok, so the argument against is "then they don't have the time to go to more competitive events". But the OOM points should handle that, and if not, a weekend to qualify. They don't give Howard, Jones, Homan, etc., a free pass in Canada each year, they need to qualify down.

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05-03-15 12:49PM
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I'll say it again. The USCA (not US Curling) can have it's program, can pick it's dream teams, can give them all the money and resources they want! I'm fine with that! But at the National Championship... let the best team win (even playing field)! What are you afraid of? Get rid of the OOM component.

Maybe, JUST maybe, a team has a different program for success that isn't the USCAs program. And THAT is the American way.

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05-04-15 01:22PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by fanofcurling
I'll say it again. The USCA (not US Curling) can have it's program, can pick it's dream teams, can give them all the money and resources they want! I'm fine with that! But at the National Championship... let the best team win (even playing field)! What are you afraid of? Get rid of the OOM component.


The current policy allows the best team to win. What exactly are you complaining about? Any team that plays down and qualifies can win the national championship, you do not need OOM points.

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05-04-15 02:03PM
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rbi
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possibly fanofcurling is referring to Erika Brown's team this year and Nina Spatola's team last year. In each case the best team did not win the chance to represent the USA at worlds.

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05-04-15 04:26PM
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Winning the National Championship is different than representing your country at World's. I know that people like the romantic idea of winning and going to worlds, and I see their argument, but the two things are different.

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05-04-15 05:07PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Winning the National Championship is different than representing your country at World's. I know that people like the romantic idea of winning and going to worlds, and I see their argument, but the two things are different.


I'm pretty sure you knew exactly what I "meant". Excuse me for the assumption.

Until the OOM was introduced, the National Champion represented the USA at Worlds. That's hardly a "romantic ideal".

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05-04-15 06:31PM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Winning the National Championship is different than representing your country at World's. I know that people like the romantic idea of winning and going to worlds, and I see their argument, but the two things are different.


If you are not capable of winning our National Championship, you aren't our best Team.

As such, you should not be our World's Representative.

Pretty straightforward, really.

Did the American League send the Yankees in 2004 despite the fact that the Red Sox beat them in the ALCS?

Did the AFC send Denver to the Super Bowl this past February?

IF you are going to have a playoff, then the winner of the Playoff should be the team that advances, it's quite that simple, really. Either give up the fiction of "Nationals" and just choose your team up in Hibbard sometime in July, or if you're gonna have a bonspiel and call it "National Championships", then you need to realize that the winner of said spiel is, frankly, your National Champion.

"Champion" - Noun - One who represents another on a field of battle.

Pretty obvious, IMO

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05-04-15 09:58PM
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quote:
Originally posted by fanofcurling


I'm pretty sure you knew exactly what I "meant". Excuse me for the assumption.

Until the OOM was introduced, the National Champion represented the USA at Worlds. That's hardly a "romantic ideal".



I did not know what you meant. Here is where I have such a disconnect. The National Championship and the World Championship are two separate competitions.

For any tournament, in any sport, it is fair to have a set of requirements that one must fulfill to participate. In your opinion, the requirement is that you must win the nationals to be eligible to participate in the other. I respect your opinion, I wont try to tell you that your point is wrong.

I would ask you to think about it this way. Another requirement could be to have enough OOM points to participate in the event. I feel that is a valid requirement, just as you feel winning nationals is a requirement. You can say that another requirement could be to wear a uniform, pass a drug test, or to pay an entrance fee, or to follow the USCA curling rulebook. Its all a set of rules that need to be adhered to, And it is not like the rules are not published far in advance now, so that cannot be an excuse.

And I know, you can try to argue how your requirement in more important than OOM in your opinion, and we will just agree to disagree. But I will ask you to legitimately think about this. For the teams that lack the OOM points to qualify, did they try to earn OOM points? How many OOM spiels did they sign up for? Why do you say that it is OK to not pay attention to an OOM requirement. Shouldn't you be mad at the people who didnt make an effort to get enough OOM points.

Sure, maybe the rule is not the best, but the intent of the rule is. The OOM requirement is set in place to insure that the top USA curlers curl against the best competition out there. This helps make sure that the USA moves towards the best countries in the world, rather than making an embarrassment of themselves on the national stage. If you can think of a better way, please lets have an intelligent discussion about it. Maybe the rule could be that you have to participate in enough OOM spiels more so than the results at them. I dont know.

Or, you could be like a lot of people who simply are negative in every post, tell people that their opinion is simply wrong, and never offer anything helpful in their argument. There is an expression that says rather than raise your voice, improve your argument.

So I ask you to please explain why you think an OOM requirement should not be followed, without simply saying because thats the way it has always been, as that is not really an argument that carries weight.

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05-04-15 11:05PM
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IMWright
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 206

quote:
Originally posted by curlky


I did not know what you meant. Here is where I have such a disconnect. The National Championship and the World Championship are two separate competitions.

For any tournament, in any sport, it is fair to have a set of requirements that one must fulfill to participate. In your opinion, the requirement is that you must win the nationals to be eligible to participate in the other. I respect your opinion, I wont try to tell you that your point is wrong.

I would ask you to think about it this way. Another requirement could be to have enough OOM points to participate in the event. I feel that is a valid requirement, just as you feel winning nationals is a requirement. You can say that another requirement could be to wear a uniform, pass a drug test, or to pay an entrance fee, or to follow the USCA curling rulebook. Its all a set of rules that need to be adhered to, And it is not like the rules are not published far in advance now, so that cannot be an excuse.

And I know, you can try to argue how your requirement in more important than OOM in your opinion, and we will just agree to disagree. But I will ask you to legitimately think about this. For the teams that lack the OOM points to qualify, did they try to earn OOM points? How many OOM spiels did they sign up for? Why do you say that it is OK to not pay attention to an OOM requirement. Shouldn't you be mad at the people who didnt make an effort to get enough OOM points.

Sure, maybe the rule is not the best, but the intent of the rule is. The OOM requirement is set in place to insure that the top USA curlers curl against the best competition out there. This helps make sure that the USA moves towards the best countries in the world, rather than making an embarrassment of themselves on the national stage. If you can think of a better way, please lets have an intelligent discussion about it. Maybe the rule could be that you have to participate in enough OOM spiels more so than the results at them. I dont know.

Or, you could be like a lot of people who simply are negative in every post, tell people that their opinion is simply wrong, and never offer anything helpful in their argument. There is an expression that says rather than raise your voice, improve your argument.

So I ask you to please explain why you think an OOM requirement should not be followed, without simply saying because thats the way it has always been, as that is not really an argument that carries weight.



Ok, for me, my issue with OOM requirement is for going to worlds. Having several qualifying spots for top OOM teams for nationals is ok with me, it gives an incentive to do that. But for worlds...

It seems that the OOM requirement for going to world's was to prevent a team that could be non-existent in the bonspiel circuit from coming in, getting hot for a week, winning nationals, and then flopping at worlds. The hope would be a well-rounded team that has played and done well in the bonspiel circuit all year (thus, accumulating many OOM points) could continue to do well at nationals, and then go to worlds (perfect case scenario). I think this year's women's results showed that the current system did not work. Instead of a team getting "hot" at nationals, you had a team that got "hot" at a bonspiel early in the season, collected enough points, and then did "good enough" at nationals to go to worlds. So, it doesn't seem that the intent of what the OOM point system was made for was really successful. Now the HPP may disagree since one of their "chosen ones" got to go to worlds, but if you look at the intent of the OOM system, it seems it did not achieve its purpose, and therefore, in my opinion, needs an overhaul.

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05-04-15 11:51PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

I think it could end up being very simple: If sending the Points Leader to Worlds instead of our National Champion is a very good idea, it will prove itself.

So far, twice it has happened. In both cases so far, the Points Leader did not do well at Worlds at all. Should that continue to be the result, then it seems to me that we are giving something up for nothing in return.

The theory and thinking behind sending the Points Leader over the National Champions has merit behind them. But they still remain just that: Theory and Thinking. No matter the logic, it needs to proven at some point.

If your thinking is that every time you have the hammer and the other team draws the button with their first rock of the end, you'll hit it...has some merit. But if you keep losing, you may wish to rethink your thinking and throw a freeze or a corner guard.

I suspect that the results will continue to disappoint. Sending a team to Worlds without the USA gold is to send a team that may not feel confident or may not feel deserving. Either could be the kiss of death at the World level. But I might be wrong.

Ben Tucker

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05-05-15 01:15AM
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curlky
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Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559

So to Tuck and IMWright, let me ask you this question. If they changed nationals to the following two things.

1.) Require that you had to acquire X number of OOM points during the season (and I dont know what X actually is) to qualify for the nationals (no minimum number of teams required).

2.) Change it so that whoever wins the nationals as specified in step 1 goes to world

Would you be OK with that situation? Or with a similar variation (have to be in the top Y in OOM points in the world to be part of nationals for example)?

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