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09-13-15 01:36AM
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JB42
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re Women's Curling - If you are not into long stories this is not for you.

Re Women's Curling

Once upon a not too long time ago, call it ten years. I was on the Men's Committee at my curling club. We had a Jr. Women's team that had made the provincials three times but never won it. They were coached by my best friend at the club and I knew them well. As the season was winding down I suggested to the skip of this women's team that they should play in the men's league as a way of helping them hurdle their next objective. "Oh no!", she immediately said to my surprise. "We couldn't do that."

As I say I was surprised. Why would that be? I remember when I was a junior having qualified for the provincials a number of times in badminton. My doubles partner and I petitioned to play in our town's senior badminton league. I.e. 18 and older, we were 16. Yes they made us 'audition', but after showing we had skills we were gladly accepted. Good for the sport and all that.

At first I couldn't see the problem. It's not like our club produces a surfeit of junior champions. There was even a precedent a few years back with a skilled junior men's team playing in the senior men's league. Then of course the obvious hit me. Some people might have a problem with them being female.

"Surely the'd be a tiny minority.", I thought to myself. Obviously however the skip of their team, having grown up at the club, did not think that would be the case, and didn't want to be part of the controversy. So I left it at that.

But just before the season ended she came back to me and asked, "Do you think you could get us in?" "Sure", I said. My belief was that she had vastly overestimated the difficulty and that it would sail through. As the kids say today.....not so much.

I discussed the scenario with my buddy - their coach. He is in many ways one of the wisest and most clever people I've ever met. He suggested the following approach. There are two men's leagues in our club and they only cross-over at playoff time. Much like Major League Baseball used to be. AL v NL. In this case Monday v Thursday. In those days Thursday was over subscribed and Monday was never full. So my friend suggested we simply approach the issue from a revenue perspective. This would take it out of the purview of the Men's section and put it under the purview of the Board of Directors. As a revenue question the answer would be simple. Would the club be better off with more revenue? Answer. Yes. Done deal.

That plan came to a screeching halt at the famous/infamous - depending on how you look at it - 'Bitch Session'. Aka. The Men's closing dinner. (Yes, yes, I get the irony) Where someone who knew the details of our plan decided it would be a good idea to give this issue an airing at the most contentious forum our rather staid club offers. Sigh.

This set off in hind-sight a somewhat extraordinary microcosmic sociological view of that time.

It was decided that the Men's Committee would look at the issue over the summer and decide before the opening dinner their recommendation. The Men's membership would then vote on it at the Opening Dinner. Aka. The second most contentious event at our club.

That summers debate remains etched in my mind as a result of the fact that one of our Committee members held a prestigious position in the legal profession and was on the other side of the argument. I.e. The answer was equally simple for him as it was for me. "What is the name of the league? 'The Men's League'. What is the definition of a man? They are therefore ineligible."

This is a good argument as it also annuls the previous exception. I.e. They were juniors but they were also men.

The following few months involved a battle royale of emails. And it is a regret that I lost those emails due to a software issue. As I think that they would have over time only become a better exemplar of the views of that time period, and how much they've changed.

The schism was very much determined by ones age. No one under forty could understand the problem. No one over fifty could believe such an aberration would be suggested. And the people between 40 and 50 were the deciding age group. I say this only to speak of the sentiment of the men at the club. The women were unsurprisingly overwhelmingly in favour but had no vote.

The arguments between the barrister and I raged across the summer. There was many a lengthy email. His well argued and definitionally rock solid. Then he made, to my mind, a fateful error moving away from the rock solid ground of the definition of a man to the extension of "What's to stop all the women from entering the Men's league?"

First off what was being proposed was an exception due to exceptional circumstances. I.e. If our club had the Swiss 'problem' of four really good women's teams then yea maybe that would be too many to admit to the Men's league. But as this was the first ever women's junior team at our club to be so gifted in our hundred year history.....that wasn't a very strong argument. The second part was no stronger. I.e. Don't flatter yourself the women have very little more desire to play on your night than you do to have them play on your night.

In the end, in a very great surprise to me, the vote was tied 4-4 and the Chair broke the tie voting 'Yea'. Surprising not that the Chair supported our side, I knew that going in. But very surprising to me we were unable to convince even one of the other side as to the validity of this exception.

By the by our girls won the provincials, and the skip of that team has gone on to win the Dominion. (now the Travellers)

Fast forward a few years from their junior championship and I see Rachel Homan playing on tv for the first time. I am ecstatic. "This is the future", I say to my buddy. Who has been coaching junior curling for eons. Me I haven't paid all that much attention. His knowledge and experience by contrast is very extensive and he has known of Holman for a decade. "Yes, she's very good.", he says to me. "No!", I say. "She is the future!" I, not unusual for me, am in the grip of a new passion. Hyperbole and I are not distant cousins.

To my mind, this is before her first Scotties win, this team was where the women's game and the men's game intersected. For years the Women's strategy has been Microsoft to the Men's Apple. I.e. A decade behind the times. Now I saw them merging. The most important innovation bringing that to the forefront being the negative ice 'pop' release run-back that Team Homan has perfected. This allows the women with less weight and sweeping than the men to make the runbacks with the same degree of consistency. (And yes I acknowledge Jen Jones' teams started the narrowing of that gap)

Last year I asked the men's skips that I most respect at our club, "So how do you think Homan would do if she were to skip one of the top men's teams?" To a man they replied, "She'd kick ass".

Which adds yet another reason why for me curling is the best of sports. I.e. In curling there is the least difference between the men's and the women's game. The other, to my mind, best thing about curling. Strategy matters more to the result in curling than any other sport. And now there is nothing to choose between the Men's and the Women's game. As Kevin Martin said tonight during the McKewen v Gushue semi-final. "In a chess game there are many moves to choose from."

I spent five years as a golf pro and charged $80/hr for a lesson. In under 5 seconds I will tell you everything you need to know about strategy in golf. Hit it in the fairway. Hit it on the green, preferably below the pin, make the putt. We're done. (Y'all owe me 11 cents. And yes in the digital world we still take pennies-

In golf execution is of course rather more of a bitch. (yea, yea, I know I'm stretching the irony now)

Execution is however yet another plus in our great game. As many a person not otherwise athletically gifted can be quite decent at the club level in our game, and in fairly short order. As a golf teacher I can tell you that is something very decidedly not the same in that also great - now Olympic as well - sport.

To another great season my friends.

Last edited by JB42 on 09-13-15 at 10:23AM

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09-17-15 01:21PM
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Given your golf strategy, I'd say golf is the sport with the least difference between men and women's games.

Sir Nick Faldo once sought a meeting with the great Ben Hogan to ask Ben for some advice. Nick asked, "Ben, what do I need to do to win the US Open?" to which Hogan replied, "Shoot the lowest score."

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09-17-15 03:20PM
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Except hitting it from 300 to 380 off the tee is where the men's game is at nowadays and the women are anywhere from 80 to 120 yards behind that. This makes it literally impossible for them to play the courses the men play.

It's just a question of physiology. Men have more muscle per pound of body weight and more body weight.

In curling by contrast because the ladies have learned how to throw it as straight as the men the fact that they can't throw it as hard has been nullified as a major difference between the games.

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09-18-15 04:23PM
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Aha, but golf has different tees and a handicap system.

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09-18-15 04:27PM
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Not at the professional level which is what I was concentrating on.

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09-20-15 12:38PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JB42
Not at the professional level which is what I was concentrating on.


Then you're even more wrong. Only at the club level is there much parity. Or maybe not.

Focusing on the pro curling level as it is right now. It's really hard to know what the actual advantage the men have over the women.

Imagine a series of games between, say, McEwen and Homan. 10 ends, four rock rule. McEwen wins 99 out of 100 if not more. Why?

Some combination of:
1. throwing power with accuracy
2. sweeping power,
3. and the fact that McEwen's team is near the best out of a much larger group of players than Homan's team.

My guess is that the order of importance is: 3, 1, and 2. But 3 is not an inherent advantage that the men can have.

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09-20-15 07:18PM
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JB42
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My point was and remains. In curling, over all other sports, the women's game has progressed in a way that puts them closer to the men's game in terms of both power and accuracy. Yes of course the men who throw it hardest throw it harder then Homan. They, definitionally, throw it harder than all the other men too. So what? The extra speed that they are generating does not make a meaningful difference to the way the game is played. Homan, Miskew, Olson, Lawes, Jones, and many others throw it as hard as is needed to make the runbacks that now are a sine qua non to success in curling. Once that speed is achieved all that matters is that you are able to hit the 'right side of the inch'. Which Homan does as well as the very best in the men's game. The rest of her team not very far behind.

How do I know this? Well, fortuitously enough stats are kept.

So when Team Homan goes through a Scotties shooting a team average of 90% for the week that is every bit as good as any team at the Brier shooting a team average of 90% for the week. Or at least it will be every bit as good as soon as some men's team does it.

They curl on the same ice conditions. Attempt shots of equal difficulty, and make them just as often. E.g. Miskew curling 93% for the week at the first slam.

Would McEwen beat Homan 99/100 times? Well that is a very silly question and an even sillier assertion. It is unknowable. What is knowable is that curling is almost as difficult to dominate as golf. And Team McEwen is as dominant a force right now as we've seen since Martin's greatest years. So yea, they'd likely beat Homan regularly. Hell they beat everyone on the planet regularly so that ain't saying much at all and is saying precisely nothing about the argument that I have been making. I.e. In curling women are closer to the men's level than women are to men in any other sport going.

Don't take it as a bad thing ngm, it is very much a good thing.

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Curling Scores

M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: M7 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 8:00pm CT
Lannoye Final
Hebert (10) Watch Live Curling!
Fitzgerald 10th
Cenzalli  Watch Live Curling!
Brenden Final
Church (9) Watch Live Curling!
Guentzel Final
Rose (6) Watch Live Curling!
W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: W6 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 4:00pm CT
Berg Final
Scheel (10) Watch Live Curling!
Berg Final
Schapman (10) Watch Live Curling!
Giroux 10  Final
Pekowitz (9) Watch Live Curling!
Viau Final
Johnson (10) Watch Live Curling!
M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
Lott/Lott Final
Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
Delorey Final
Lockhart (EE)
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