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| 01-05-15 03:05PM |
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Straight Ice, extremely flat ice or ice with hills and falls is a huge equalizer. What separates the top teams in the World from everyone else is the precision and finesse on both the hard and soft shots. Line calling combined with sweeping on swingy ice I believe determines a lot of wins and losses in the Slams these days. All the guys throw it well and are close with the weight so its about who makes more hit and rolls, freezes and run backs with the brushes. A lot of that skillset is taken out of the equation on straight ice. A completely different game ends up being played with hits exchanged on straight ice with much lower likelihood to make any rolls. Anyone that is disputing that does not understanding Curling at the highest level.
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| 01-05-15 03:08PM |
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peteski
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Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawzy
I think everyone can agree that we want the following two things:
1) Curlers, fans, and, let's not forget icemakers, want the best ice possible for each and every game regardless of the calibre of team playing.
2) Fans want to see the "best" teams competing at the highest levels.
Yes, let's start with agreement here. Well said.
As for what "best" means, it always comes down to who wins more. The points are a reflection of how much a team wins. Certainly, they favour teams that play more, but I think generally speaking the highest ranking teams in points are the best teams.
However, this is sort of moot, because no one wants to just award Brier spots to the highest ranked teams. Everyone wants playdowns as far as I can tell. However, I fail to see the real harm in awarding one or two spots in the playdowns to the top ranked teams. But at the very least, make sure the games are played on decent ice.
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| 01-05-15 03:09PM |
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Shawzy
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
Oh for chr*st sake, just read this. lol I cut and pasted from Nolan's blog as referenced earlier. You've latched on to this most basic meaning of the word 'best', without any thought into what that means. 'Best' at what? Strategy? Hits? Draws? Taps? 'Clutch' shooting? Dealing with pressure?
Anyways, as promised (props to Nolan Theissen) - from his blog about Dealing with Curling Misconceptions (or something to that effect):
No. 4 — If the ice is bad for both teams, it should affect you the same way
Before the pitchforks come out, I am not going to say that whining and complaining about the ice conditions is a good thing. I know many fans hear the comments about the “ice being garbage” on the live microphones and they hate hearing it, so I am not saying you should give us curlers a break on that one.
I get it … we GSOC players are spoiled by playing on ice like what Mark Shurek provides us, but what I am here to say is that when a team says the ice conditions were difficult it probably just means that a facet of their game was taken away. It isn’t so much that players can’t make shots, it is more that they can’t trust what the ice is going to do so they are less willing to try the harder shots.
Also for those outsiders to say “well both teams have to play on it” I have this comparison to draw. Say you have a basketball game and one team has a 6-4 point guard and four guys between 6-9 and 7-3. They face a team with a 5-10 point guard and four guys between 6-3 and 6-9. In order for the little team to have a chance, they are probably going to have to make a bunch of threes early to get the big (probably slower) guys outside so they have some room to maneuver and get closer to the basket (where higher percentage shots are available) to win.
Now take away the three-point line. What incentive does the big team have to go outside to protect against the long (lower percentage) shots? The little team is going to get boat-raced since they do not have any avenue to attack the big team with. The behemoths will sit back and swat everything that comes their way on defence and have a steady stream of post-up baskets at the other end.
The same goes for ice conditions. Say two teams are playing and one is excellent with finesse and the other team is not great drawers but they are exceptional hitters (we can all figure out teams that fall into these categories). If the ice is straight then the finesse team can’t draw behind guards, or freeze on rocks behind guards. It is much easier for the hitting team to win right, since the finesse team has nowhere to hide? That is what teams mean when they discuss ice conditions. The best ice gives everyone a chance to play the way they would like to, to trust that every shot is available. The bad ice eliminates a large portion of the shots available.
(It does bring up the need for teams to adapt their strategy when ice conditions are not great and not just complain, but that is a topic for another day).
You can stop talking to me like a child; not only are the concepts easy enough to understand but you come across as a gigantic ass.
My point still stands though as I'm not trying to say that they shouldn't try to make good ice. What I'm saying is that if there is bad ice people need to get over it. When I say that both teams have to play on it I mean that both teams have to adapt to it. Yes, it takes shots away, but it does not take away a team's ability to make the shots that are available. If a team either cannot execute the shots that are available or cannot play a strategy that fits the ice conditions then they do not deserve to win, period.
Top teams should be able to execute all manners of shot and strategy anyway. Going into that game, everyone expected a Howard victory, regardless of ice conditions, precisely because they would expect a team of Howard's reputation - nevermind experience - to be able to cope with whatever ice they play on. On paper one would say that Howard has a better team in all aspects of play than Squires, so it's not like it was two evenly-matched teams with contrasting styles (as in Nolan's example).
At the end of the day, take it at face value: a good, young team beat the prohibitive favourites. It was a great accomplishment regardless of the ice. The fact that we're sitting here talking about ice more than the shots that were made does a great discredit to Squires and his team. They won the game and there's no replay on top-quality ice either.
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| 01-05-15 03:12PM |
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outurn
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by Keaner
The problem I have with the zones and regions being played on bad ice is that once you get to the provincials, Brier, and/or Worlds you are on great ice with great rocks. It seems kind of stupid to qualify teams on straight ice and then throw them onto the Tankard ice with 4-6 feet of swing.
I guess the real problem is that there are countless other provinces getting the top teams to their respective provincials via points, etc. Ontario is behind the times and our teams are the ones at a disadvantage. If the Brier wasn't evolving the way it is I would say great keep the setup the way it is, but that's not the case.
This is an interesting point of view by Keaner. I think what he is saying again that the "best teams" are the ones that play mostly on arena ice and are able to handle the 4 -6 feet of curl. Certainly the teams that play the majority of their games on arena ice are better prepared than those who have never played on it. The WCT teams would certainly like to play teams that have little experience on arena ice because they would have a massive advantage since they play it all the time. Perhaps that is why there is such an uproar because now the WCT teams have difficulty adjusting to straighter ice. So who then is the "best team"?
Also this constant refrain that we want the "best teams" to represent Ontario is from the casual TV watching curling fan. I should hope that everyone would want the team that started on a level playing field (which was not the case this year since the zones was seeded and then re-seeded for regionals)and who beat the teams to get to the provincials should be the best team this year.
So to review, the WCT teams were given the easiest possible draw at both zones and regionals, and still did not get out? I don't think there is much room for complaining about the system. And guess what, they can play Challenge Round if they want 2 more chances.
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| 01-05-15 03:14PM |
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Shawzy
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quote:
Originally posted by peteski
Yes, let's start with agreement here. Well said.
As for what "best" means, it always comes down to who wins more. The points are a reflection of how much a team wins. Certainly, they favour teams that play more, but I think generally speaking the highest ranking teams in points are the best teams.
However, this is sort of moot, because no one wants to just award Brier spots to the highest ranked teams. Everyone wants playdowns as far as I can tell. However, I fail to see the real harm in awarding one or two spots in the playdowns to the top ranked teams. But at the very least, make sure the games are played on decent ice.
I raised the idea of Brier spots going to the top ranked teams because that seems to be the direction that the game is going. Now we're in some middle ground where some teams qualify for provincials on points and others by playdown, but I don't think we're that far from a all-points provincial or even provinces just awarding Brier spots for tour leaders (e.g. the running joke is that Gushue has a free pass out of Newfoundland; what happens when the Newfoundland Association just decides to let Gushue go and save the time and money on holding playdowns?).
As I mentioned before, if the only risk of playdowns is that maybe a favourite loses occasionally then I'd rather see that - and reward wins within the competition (as opposed to wins from other competitions) - than a bunch of free passes being handed out to the same teams each year.
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| 01-05-15 03:22PM |
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Unregistered
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawzy
You can stop talking to me like a child; not only are the concepts easy enough to understand but you come across as a gigantic ass.
My point still stands though as I'm not trying to say that they shouldn't try to make good ice. What I'm saying is that if there is bad ice people need to get over it. When I say that both teams have to play on it I mean that both teams have to adapt to it. Yes, it takes shots away, but it does not take away a team's ability to make the shots that are available. If a team either cannot execute the shots that are available or cannot play a strategy that fits the ice conditions then they do not deserve to win, period.
Top teams should be able to execute all manners of shot and strategy anyway. Going into that game, everyone expected a Howard victory, regardless of ice conditions, precisely because they would expect a team of Howard's reputation - nevermind experience - to be able to cope with whatever ice they play on. On paper one would say that Howard has a better team in all aspects of play than Squires, so it's not like it was two evenly-matched teams with contrasting styles (as in Nolan's example).
At the end of the day, take it at face value: a good, young team beat the prohibitive favourites. It was a great accomplishment regardless of the ice. The fact that we're sitting here talking about ice more than the shots that were made does a great discredit to Squires and his team. They won the game and there's no replay on top-quality ice either.
Alright Shawzy... You win. You've beaten me into submission.
Your inability to understand that the game is fundamentally different when played with 1-2 inches of curl and unpredictable speeds, from what it is meant to be....means there's no reasonable discussion possible.
Perhaps there's a misunderstanding of what 'bad ice' is, or something. I don't know. But I'm out.
Enjoy.
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| 01-05-15 03:46PM |
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Gerry
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The ice issues can simply be summed up on Howard's last shot in the 10th end against Damian Villard.
He had an open draw (no guards on half the sheet) draw to the full 12-foot for the win. If this is the shot, no competitive team would consider anything else.
Problem was, there's some reason Howard didn't want to throw that shot. That doesn't happen on good or even playable ice. I've heard from some that the ice was flat and there were a lot of picks.
So Howard not liking the draw was left with one other shot. Hit a stone on the outside where he had a foot to play with. Hitting anywhere from nose to ticking the inside. It was pretty easy hit to get his two.
Since it sounds like they couldn't trust the draw to be made, they opted for the hit. Which fell off the sheet and hit the outside, only getting 1 point.
When is the last time you saw Glenn Howard miss a shot by more than a foot?
Essentially you turn the game into BINGO and you bring luck into play. This is why ice conditions play into the results. And bad ice conditions equalize the field. Throw it close and hope it doesn't flat pick, or catch a run or fall off the sheet.
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| 01-05-15 03:57PM |
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Batty
Swing Artist
Registered: Jun 2004
Location: Kitchener
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
[B]The ice issues can simply be summed up on Howard's last shot in the 10th end against Damian Villard.
He had an open draw (no guards on half the sheet) draw to the full 12-foot for the win. If this is the shot, no competitive team would consider anything else.
Problem was, there's some reason Howard didn't want to throw that shot. That doesn't happen on good or even playable ice. I've heard from some that the ice was flat and there were a lot of picks.
This still leaves me confused. How is the hit any easier then the draw with 12-feet to work with? Picks would affect either shot selection. And Villard drew four-foot for the win in the extra end correct? Which would be throwing the back to the glass same as Howard. Very strange.
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| 01-05-15 04:16PM |
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by Batty
This still leaves me confused. How is the hit any easier then the draw with 12-feet to work with? Picks would affect either shot selection. And Villard drew four-foot for the win in the extra end correct? Which would be throwing the back to the glass same as Howard. Very strange.
Flat spots tend to develop in the middle of the sheet, where the ice is played more. I'm guessing the hit on the outside was deemed more playable because it would be on fresh ice.
There were two rocks biting the side of the 12 foot, where making contact with the top stone would have removed the backing and made it count along with a biter on the other side at the front.
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| 01-05-15 04:30PM |
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dugless_zone 13
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Damien was Howard's A side lose right?
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| 01-05-15 04:36PM |
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Unregistered
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
The ice issues can simply be summed up on Howard's last shot in the 10th end against Damian Villard.
He had an open draw (no guards on half the sheet) draw to the full 12-foot for the win. If this is the shot, no competitive team would consider anything else.
Problem was, there's some reason Howard didn't want to throw that shot. That doesn't happen on good or even playable ice. I've heard from some that the ice was flat and there were a lot of picks.
So Howard not liking the draw was left with one other shot. Hit a stone on the outside where he had a foot to play with. Hitting anywhere from nose to ticking the inside. It was pretty easy hit to get his two.
Since it sounds like they couldn't trust the draw to be made, they opted for the hit. Which fell off the sheet and hit the outside, only getting 1 point.
When is the last time you saw Glenn Howard miss a shot by more than a foot?
Essentially you turn the game into BINGO and you bring luck into play. This is why ice conditions play into the results. And bad ice conditions equalize the field. Throw it close and hope it doesn't flat pick, or catch a run or fall off the sheet.
I agree with this. I mean, when a player with the draw ability of glenn howard , who is legendary for his drawing ability decides that he cant trust the ice to draw full 12 foot for a win then there's something seriously wrong there.
yes players should have to adapt to ice conditions but at the same time when we are talking about an event as important as this then players should not be made to play on crappy ice with crappy rocks.
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| 01-05-15 04:51PM |
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dugless_zone 13
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so everyone is making excuses for his first loss, not the one that eliminated him.
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| 01-05-15 04:57PM |
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Shawzy
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
Alright Shawzy... You win. You've beaten me into submission.
Your inability to understand that the game is fundamentally different when played with 1-2 inches of curl and unpredictable speeds, from what it is meant to be....means there's no reasonable discussion possible.
Perhaps there's a misunderstanding of what 'bad ice' is, or something. I don't know. But I'm out.
Enjoy.
Different? Yes. Fundamentally? No. You still have to get your rock closest to the button. The change is the means by which you can get your rock there. The goal is still the same and you still have to execute.
This is my core point and what you are failing to understand. You are arguing as if I am saying that top curlers should be able to make triple-angle-runbacks on any ice regardless of condition. That is a mistake. My argument is simply that the reputed better team still has the better odds of executing and if they don't execute then they don't deserve to win (regardless of the ice in play).
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| 01-05-15 05:07PM |
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peteski
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
so everyone is making excuses for his first loss, not the one that eliminated him.
Everyone is making the point that the ice was apparently crap. Is anyone arguing otherwise?
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| 01-05-15 05:11PM |
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peteski
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawzy
Different? Yes. Fundamentally? No. You still have to get your rock closest to the button. The change is the means by which you can get your rock there. The goal is still the same and you still have to execute.
This is my core point and what you are failing to understand. You are arguing as if I am saying that top curlers should be able to make triple-angle-runbacks on any ice regardless of condition. That is a mistake. My argument is simply that the reputed better team still has the better odds of executing and if they don't execute then they don't deserve to win (regardless of the ice in play).
Yes the better teams still has the better odds, but their advantage is significantly diminished. On perfect ice they might be a 95% favourite, but on dead straight ice against reasonably capable opponents, it's probably down close to 50%. It's called curling. There is supposed to be curl. It's a different game without it.
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| 01-05-15 05:15PM |
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawzy
Different? Yes. Fundamentally? No. You still have to get your rock closest to the button. The change is the means by which you can get your rock there. The goal is still the same and you still have to execute.
This is my core point and what you are failing to understand. You are arguing as if I am saying that top curlers should be able to make triple-angle-runbacks on any ice regardless of condition. That is a mistake. My argument is simply that the reputed better team still has the better odds of executing and if they don't execute then they don't deserve to win (regardless of the ice in play).
I don't think anyone is suggesting players require the perfect ice to make "triple-angle-runbacks", but would suggest they do expect conditions where you can draw the 12 foot in the 10th end.
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| 01-05-15 05:16PM |
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Unregistered
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawzy
My argument is simply that the reputed better team still has the better odds of executing and if they don't execute then they don't deserve to win (regardless of the ice in play).
And everyone else's point is that those better odds are significantly reduced on bad ice that can't be trusted. Thus, the reason why we say it's an "equalizer".
People aren't taking anything away from Villiard or Squires, just pointing out that this is an unfortunate reality of playing important events on bad ice, and it would be best if it could be avoided.
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| 01-05-15 05:31PM |
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dugless_zone 13
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I"m curious how many people commenting here were actually at the games and witnessed the ice conditions firsthand?
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| 01-05-15 05:43PM |
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Unregistered
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
I"m curious how many people commenting here were actually at the games and witnessed the ice conditions firsthand?
People who were there say it was straight & flat, with barely any curl, lot's of picks, falls so extreme rocks hit the boards, and not trustworthy enough to throw draws to the 12 foot in the 10th end. Do we have to see it firsthand to have a valid voice in this argument? Or shall we call those people liars and embellishers put this thing to bed?
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| 01-05-15 05:44PM |
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Honestly who cares?
Howard is on his way out anyway. bad ice or good ice, it doesn't really matter. If this was 5 years ago he wouldn't have lost. He can go to challenge round and most likely still win the Tankard or go to skins game for the last time in his life. Time for the new crop to breakthrough and time for Howard to run his beer shop and hang out with his fmaily.
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| 01-05-15 05:55PM |
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Unregistered
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
Honestly who cares?
Howard is on his way out anyway. bad ice or good ice, it doesn't really matter. If this was 5 years ago he wouldn't have lost. He can go to challenge round and most likely still win the Tankard or go to skins game for the last time in his life. Time for the new crop to breakthrough and time for Howard to run his beer shop and hang out with his fmaily.
Evidently lots of us care. This is getting more attention because of Howard losing, but the core point of bad ice being an equalizer is something competitive curlers have loathed for years. He can retire and as you so eloquently put, run his beer shop, and this issue would still be relevant.
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| 01-05-15 06:03PM |
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Unregistered
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To Sum It Up
I've seen and played on a lot of ice in my day. A LOT of ice, trust me!
One factor that will bring a superior team down to the level of their opponent is straight, crappy ice and/or lousy rocks. There is no question with this. Intricate soft shots go out the window and with it the advantage a superior team would normally have.
Not only is this frustrating to ALL the players, it's unfair to the spectators, who have to watch our wonderful game reduced to a level reminiscent of pre-guard zone rule days.
My biggest beef is with the OCA. Sure, supporters of the OCA will say we are lucky to have clubs that will sponsor these events. My argument is that the OCA's mandate must be to scout out the best ice to play on. If not, why don't we just go out and play on the river.
Simply, if a club is known to have bad rocks, inferior straight ice or similar...they should NOT be allowed to host an event. As an analogy, a golf tournament which advances to a Provincial final is always scrutinized thoroughly by the CGA, before the event is granted to the host golf course. That's just bloody common sense!
That's my $0.02
:headbang
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| 01-05-15 06:08PM |
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dugless_zone 13
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" a golf tournament which advances to a Provincial final is always scrutinized thoroughly by the CGA, before the event is granted to the host golf course. That's just bloody common sense"
you mean the OGA?
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| 01-05-15 06:59PM |
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Batty
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ice as an equalizer
I still say if one skip could get in the hack to draw the four foot on these supposed crappy ice conditions and win the game facing an elite curler (that would be a pressure shot) then the elite curler is obviously more than capable of making the same shot.
Upsets happen. When tennis's Nadal gets ousted by a low seed is everyone then saying Nadal should't have to play the first two rounds at Wimbledon? He and Federer shouldn't have to play the first few days so they can be assured of being in the quarters, semis and finals?
At least in Ontario we offer the challenge round for when this happens. Unfortunately it conflicts with Skins. Something should have been looked at before the season (not only by Team Howard but by the OCA).
In Alberta three regional associations hold playdowns to qualify 8 spots, defending champ returns, top Alberta team in overall CTRS (if not already qualified) and then two more Alberta teams on points for events held inside the Alberta Federation boundaries. Makes a 12-team provincial. If you don't qualify out of that... there is no other recourse..try again next year.
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