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04-01-14 08:55AM |
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OHCurler
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2011
Location:
Posts: 31 |
quote: Originally posted by dbsdbs
Tough loss tonight - only 2nd win for Scotland. Now likely need to win 4 of final 5 to have chance at playoffs - and that may not even be enough. Tough order with games left vs CAN, CHN,DEN, NOR, SUI.
They are in 11th place. They aren't making the playoffs.
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04-01-14 02:24PM |
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chapnlie
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 282 |
I'm not sure why anyone expects U.S. men's teams to perform better than they do at international events when they do little on the WCT tour, etc., to justify that expectation. When they perform in the second tier to the top international teams all year, should you really expect them to medal at world events?
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04-01-14 05:15PM |
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Nine Ender
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2009
Location:
Posts: 338 |
quote: Originally posted by chapnlie
I'm not sure why anyone expects U.S. men's teams to perform better than they do at international events when they do little on the WCT tour, etc., to justify that expectation. When they perform in the second tier to the top international teams all year, should you really expect them to medal at world events?
Yes, when I saw Misty saying they were the best US men's team in 10 years, I checked their tour record and it's mediocre. Which just emphasized the point that some of the regulars making predictions on here are talking through their ass and they don't really know a whole lot about the teams.
Better to just expect very little and be surprised if they overachieve. The next great US team ( a legit contender ) will likely be somebody new. Several years ago, Jacobs and Homan weren't in the top teams yet. Fenson, Brown, Pottinger can be respected for their past successes, but the fact they continually represent the US suggests weakness in your system not strength. Which is why not sending your new woman's champion was a huge mistake. And I'm not writing off the vets entirely, but why is it they aren't developing line ups behind them that can compete well ?
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04-01-14 05:46PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote: Originally posted by Nine Ender
Yes, when I saw Misty saying they were the best US men's team in 10 years, I checked their tour record and it's mediocre.
out of curiosity, how did the other teams in the worlds do on the tour by comparison to the US and to Canada?
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04-01-14 07:10PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
quote: Originally posted by Nine Ender
Yes, when I saw Misty saying they were the best US men's team in 10 years, I checked their tour record and it's mediocre. Which just emphasized the point that some of the regulars making predictions on here are talking through their ass and they don't really know a whole lot about the teams.
Better to just expect very little and be surprised if they overachieve. The next great US team ( a legit contender ) will likely be somebody new. Several years ago, Jacobs and Homan weren't in the top teams yet. Fenson, Brown, Pottinger can be respected for their past successes, but the fact they continually represent the US suggests weakness in your system not strength. Which is why not sending your new woman's champion was a huge mistake. And I'm not writing off the vets entirely, but why is it they aren't developing line ups behind them that can compete well ?
Actually I know a lot about these teams.My predictions are usually pretty good. Who cares if they haven't done a lot on tour. They've been the best team for the US at worlds and major competitions over the last 10 years. The last 2 appearances haven't been great but aside from birr there haven't been any US mens teams getting within a sniff of a medal
whats getting pretty irritating is you coming on here and acting like you know so much better than everyone else. Anyone that disagrees with you is an idiot that doesn't know what they are talking about apparently
Last edited by misty1 on 04-01-14 at 08:05PM
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04-01-14 11:12PM |
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SmokeyJoe
Hitting Paint
Registered: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 127 |
If you look at the Order of Merit for the past season, and exclude the Canadian teams, there are five teams from the US in the top twenty (Fenson, George, Shuster, Clark, and Brown). This is more than Scotland (four teams), Switzerland (three teams), and Sweden (two teams). There is a depth of talent in the US to compete with the rest of non-Canadian countries. Not sure what the best way is to harness that talent.
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04-02-14 08:11AM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
It's pretty straightforward, actually...
Have an open and strongly contested Championship Tournament that pits those strong teams (and any others that come along in the future) against each other, preferably in some sort of round robin format, then let the champion of that Tournament become our National Representative at a succeeding worlds, after a time representing the US as "Team USA" on the spiel circuit to get exposure, experience, and excitement.
Perhaps we could call it "The United States Curling Championships". It has a nice ring to it...
Crown our National Champion in Mid to late April, let them prepare for the following 12 months, then go to Worlds in Late March/Early April of the succeeding year.
For Olympic Years, let the 4 teams that won nationals compete against each other since the last Olympics (and perhaps a handful of selected others) in a similar contest, either at the very end of the preceding season or the very beginning of the Olympic Winter, Crown our champion there, and let them dedicate themselves to preparing for the Olympics.
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04-02-14 08:25AM |
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youngen
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Posts: 99 |
PLEASE,
Alan just get off your soapbox already and do something about it. EVERYONE in the US has the ability to change things if they try. I hope you have plans to attend the board meeting next weekend, and/or voice your opinion to your representative that is going. But, the horse is dead so stop beating it.
I don't read these forums to see the same post in every page of every thread.
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04-02-14 08:37AM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
The horse will be dead after the meeting, when (I fear and suspect) the decision will come down to double down on the current system, thereby dooming us to likely not even qualifying for the 2016 games (barring WCF and/or IOC shenanigans, which are always possible). Not to mention shooting any hopes of developing the scope and size of the game in the single largest potential market in the Western World (China would be bigger, if they chose to be so, however China's system is very much based on the "put all your eggs in one basket, then watch that basket" model, which should not be the ethos of the USA.
Until then, it's the single largest issue facing US Curling for the next several years.
The "HPP Chosen Athletes given every advantage to become our team" system, as currently constituted, is failing. Our nation's results over the past several World and Olympic cycles are proving it. The lack of "new blood" being given the resources to make the leap, and the suppressing of those few drops that manage to persevere despite the broken system, will, ultimately, doom the roaring game to the status of biathlon, as far as public accessibility and Olympic Success go.
Frankly, if we had to compete like the Europeans do to get a spot, we'd be hard pressed to keep a spot in the B group.
The way the USOC, and by extension the USCA, chooses to allocate it's scarse resources to develop "World Class" talent is profoundly broken, and if it takes a million posts to get someone to realize that, then a million posts there shall be.
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04-02-14 09:21AM |
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ChiefIceMinion
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Nov 2012
Location: In the crawlspace
Posts: 83 |
quote: Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
The way the USOC, and by extension the USCA, chooses to allocate it's scarse resources to develop "World Class" talent is profoundly broken, and if it takes a million posts to get someone to realize that, then a million posts there shall be.
If you're going to post a million posts about it, at least put it in a thread that's devoted to the topic (like the HP Program thread) rather than threadjacking discussions that only have a tangential connection to your rants until you show up in the forum.
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04-02-14 09:26AM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
The reason for the (lack of) performance of our Men's and Women's teams at a World Championship isn't on topic for a discussion of said Championship?
Discussing how to prevent further embarrassments, by sending teams which are actually prepared to succeed, isn't on topic for a thread discussing a championship where, frankly, we're being embarrassed?
Huh...funny that...in most other sports second-guessing the decisions of the management is part and parcel of discussing the game.
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04-02-14 09:42AM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote: Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
The way the USOC, and by extension the USCA, chooses to allocate it's scarse resources to develop "World Class" talent is profoundly broken, and if it takes a million posts to get someone to realize that, then a million posts there shall be.
The ideas you are suggesting have all be tried in the past and have shown limited success.
The ideas the HP team are now implementing are based on the Swiss-Model, a program that has shown international success and has built the competitive depth in Switzerland that you're asking for in the USA.
Their 4th ranked Women's team (Feltscher) just finished winning the Women's World Championship. The 2nd ranked Men's team (de Cruz) is in the playoff hunt in China.
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04-02-14 10:32AM |
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Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Does anybody from the USCA even visit this site? Just wondering...
__________________
Jim
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04-02-14 10:50AM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
quote: Originally posted by Jimbobogie
Does anybody from the USCA even visit this site? Just wondering...
Oh yes, they are out there lurking.....
__________________
JH
Go Phils, got my WS bet on you
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04-02-14 11:23AM |
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runinrock
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jul 2013
Location: 216
Posts: 41 |
quote: Originally posted by Jimbobogie
Does anybody from the USCA even visit this site? Just wondering...
yes, many of us do, but the ones that actually know anything keep our mouths shut and let "know-it-alls" bloviate. Nothing wrong with asking questions and giving your opinions, but when you continually spout the same ideas over and over it begs the question "do you really care or just like hearing yourself type Alan?". And after personal attacks they have run off the only person from the USCA HP staff who was willing to engage the CZ masses. For the most part just a bunch of guys who have no power at home or at work and have a lot of time on their hands...same reason why nothing ever gets accomplished at USCA board, or regional board meetings..
-Lurker #2
__________________
-Mike Moore
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04-02-14 11:40AM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
quote: Originally posted by Gerry
The ideas you are suggesting have all be tried in the past and have shown limited success.
The ideas the HP team are now implementing are based on the Swiss-Model, a program that has shown international success and has built the competitive depth in Switzerland that you're asking for in the USA.
Their 4th ranked Women's team (Feltscher) just finished winning the Women's World Championship. The 2nd ranked Men's team (de Cruz) is in the playoff hunt in China.
This sounds good but... HP document suggests support of a single men's team and a single women's team and, perhaps most critically, the same for juniors. Not sure how that approach builds competitive depth?
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04-02-14 11:54AM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
The approach the USOC is taking is being used in other sports in the US (in addition to The SWISS) and is in some ways working there. That said, it is difficult to succeed if you don't have a good pool of elite talent, which is why the USCA role of growing curling and providing opportunities to develop into elite curlers is vital.
If the USOC can't build the pool of talented curlers, the system (any system) will fail and the US will not be competitive at the world level.
It is time to accept that we'll have two tiers of competitor of which the top tier will be give additional development opportunities such as an OTC with Resident Athletes, year round support and training, top coaching, and stipends. The top tier will be funded by the USOC in the hopes of fulfilling their mission which is to win medals at the olympics. World championships are just another way to validate the program is on track. The plucky kid with a dream needs to dream of making it to the next level first before they can realistically dream of making it to the gold medal game.
These stratifications already exists today, and there really are only a handful of curlers today who compete at anything more than the local bonspiel level, this HP program is just recognizing that and trying to make it systematic. The days of the tuesday night league team winning club, state, nationals & worlds is over if it ever really existed.
My $.77
Last edited by Flat Hat on 04-02-14 at 02:01PM
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04-02-14 11:59AM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote: Originally posted by SmokeyJoe
If you look at the Order of Merit for the past season, and exclude the Canadian teams, there are five teams from the US in the top twenty (Fenson, George, Shuster, Clark, and Brown). This is more than Scotland (four teams), Switzerland (three teams), and Sweden (two teams). There is a depth of talent in the US to compete with the rest of non-Canadian countries. Not sure what the best way is to harness that talent.
Thanks Joe, I didn't know how to figure that myself. So the US isn't mediocre at the tour level and is at least on par with the other top curling countries in terms of the holy OOM points.
I think the relatively lower number of teams from the rest of the world speaks more to focus & distance (imagine the numbers if the tour was in China or Scotland?) than to lack of depth. They are trying to hone 2-3 teams into top level contenders and are putting all of their wood behind those few arrows.
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04-02-14 12:08PM |
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DBZ
Swing Artist
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 481 |
Nice win for Pete & the boys. Sure would like to see them close out with 2 more. Chins up Boys!
__________________
DB
H-B w/ A
Grand Forks, ND USA
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04-02-14 01:34PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
There goes DB, being controversial again.
Alan, I agree to a point...but...every post in every thread? I'll concede that it was appropriate in the Women's World thread because we did not send our National champions. Here, however, I think we could use a break. We'll get some HPP, Governance and Future threads going soon. It will make the summer fly by.
THE SWISS MODEL, as Guertzie said, has it goin' on. We need to look more closely into how they elect their Olympic and World teams. We need to see how their funding works. We need to examine how their teams are sponsored and how democratic is their process.
The rise of the Swiss is not a new phenomenon. We've been saying it for a couple of years now.
Runinrock: Bloviate? Seriously? I had to look it up. Good word. I should have furthered my formal education. For now, however, we all need to get educated on this Swiss Model.
Ben Tucker
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04-02-14 01:58PM |
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DBZ
Swing Artist
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 481 |
LOL. Can tell you don't watch O'Rielly Tuck - he brought "bloviate" to the public eye!
You guys can choose whatever the system of the day is & use it to put another patch on the leaking boat that is USCA's involvement in US Competitive Curling. I'll keep hoping our boys will win another 2 games. Funny, I probably will have more impact than all of the posts above on how to "fix" HPP, or whatever you call it these days!
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DB
H-B w/ A
Grand Forks, ND USA
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04-02-14 02:50PM |
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chapnlie
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 282 |
quote: Originally posted by SmokeyJoe
If you look at the Order of Merit for the past season, and exclude the Canadian teams, there are five teams from the US in the top twenty (Fenson, George, Shuster, Clark, and Brown). This is more than Scotland (four teams), Switzerland (three teams), and Sweden (two teams). There is a depth of talent in the US to compete with the rest of non-Canadian countries. Not sure what the best way is to harness that talent.
Based on the results it is obvious that being in the top 20 is not enough...
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04-02-14 02:55PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
Well, since this thread is highjacked might as well add to it.
The Swiss model will work for the US when we get all the competitive curlers in the US to live within a 4.5 hour drive of each other. That is the time it takes to drive from Lausanne to Davos. Switzerland is smaller than NY. So, anyone who wants to be part of the HP program or play in any competition that leads to Worlds (Juniors, Men, Women, Mixed Doubles, Seniors) has to all move. Might as well be in the CoU. All clubs and curlers that are more than 4.5 hours from the CoU are on their own.
Alan, the Olympic teams for Vancouver won their spot the prior Spring and had almost 9 months or so to play and get ready. That didn't work out so well either.
JH
need to start posting in the Derby thread
PPS how long before we can start the Rambling thread?
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04-02-14 03:23PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote: Originally posted by jhcurl
the Olympic teams for Vancouver won their spot the prior Spring and had almost 9 months or so to play and get ready. That didn't work out so well either.
One of the variables that should be assessed is how well those 9 months were utilized--how much time could teams dedicate to high-level competitive play? What kind of coaching/training program was provided during that time?
It's hard to know if the system or the implementation is at fault without serious assessment. Just looking at the outcome is not assessment. It's not sufficient to know things are working--you have to know WHY things are not working to make progress. Maybe this kind of objective analysis has been done--if it hasn't, it should.
I have to admit I'm concerned that the current level of funding, and the focus on a limited number of teams in the currently proposed HP plan is not a recipe for developing depth or breadth in the U.S. curling athlete pool. I would go from worried to alarmed if the HP program winds up supporting more or less the same old teams we have sent in the past, further freezing our developing talent pool in time. A further obstacle in the U.S. is the amateur status of the sport, which makes it difficult to extract the level of commitment required. That's a tough nut to crack without more funding for travel and compensation for being away from work.
Cheers.
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04-02-14 07:14PM |
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masterb
Knee-Slider
Registered: Jun 2013
Location:
Posts: 6 |
2014 world mens
here are the facts
Fenson is 3-6 against a much weaker field than last years worlds and he has to play Norway and Switzerland yet good luck ! the good news for him is that Norway almost has first or second wrapped up
Fenson , Rojeski and Polo have gone 6 times and not won a medal at the worlds at least I don't think so. That is not good at all.
Pete intimidates other USA teams and they miss against him when it counts. McCormick could not hit any part of the 4 foot to beat him.
Those guys had their chances time to send someone new.
The Scottish team or Czech Republic teams he lost to would never win the USA Mens.I would expect better of them with their experience and this weaker field.
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