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Fort Smith, NT
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02-10-16 08:59PM
misty1 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for misty1 Click here to Send misty1 a Private Message Find more posts by misty1 Add misty1 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
misty1
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i dont see any system as perfect. in a triple knock out if one top team is really struggling they could be eliminated fast but a round robin allows time for recovery.

on the other hand a round robin does produce games that have no meaning and you could argue the page playoff format is unfair to team who do well in the round robin

i dont have a preference for either one

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02-10-16 09:31PM
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Par
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
doesnt work for televion


People keep saying that, but I don't believe them.

God forbid anybody should ever say to a broadcaster, "This is the format of our championship. Do you want to cover it? Or should we sell the rights to one of your competitors?"

In the NHL playoffs, there are 15 series, 4 to 7 games each. That's 15*4 = 60 games that will definitely be played, and 15*3 = 45 games that might not be played. Who wants to cover it? Everybody.

A triple knockout would consist of many draws that would definitely be played, and 2 draws that might not be played.

So my question is: If TV networks will cover NHL playoffs even though the schedule calls for 45 games that might not be played, are they really going to refuse a curling event just because the schedule calls for 2 draws that might not be played?

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02-10-16 09:35PM
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100 % agree

quote:
Originally posted by ott-am


I agree, but even if the unbeaten team loses to a team with one loss, they should have to be beaten twice.

The best draw for a provincial is the non-modified triple. It is a perfect draw and the most fair.





The non modified will always produce the best team that week. It's possible with the modified the best team will lose one game, the final.... Sweeting.

However once it reaches the Scotties or Brier it needs to be a round robin for TV I agree to that. But at least until then, to get the best rep for each province or territory, triple knock out is best.

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02-10-16 10:30PM
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Page playoff

I see we digress. The BEST format for the Scotties/Brier is: 1) have 16 teams, Team Canada, 10 provinces, 3 territories, Northern Ontario AND a wildcard team ( highest ranked team not in the event). 2) 2 evenly balanced pools of 8. 3) round robin in each pool with top 3 in each to the playoffs. 4). 2 vrs 3 in each pool, winner to semis against 1 from each pool. Semis winners play for gold and silver. Semis losers play for bronze. And no one gets a ruddy second chance in the playoffs! And no relegation!

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02-11-16 12:21AM
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In a perfect world that system sounds OK , however IMO you have 3 or 4 teams playing for our National championship that could'nt win the Sunday morning hangover spiel.....sorry not a slag on any particular area of our country but just a fact of life. Some of these teams fare well in the Brier patch.

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02-11-16 12:24AM
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Par
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Re: Page playoff

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck
I see we digress. The BEST format for the Scotties/Brier is: 1) have 16 teams, Team Canada, 10 provinces, 3 territories, Northern Ontario AND a wildcard team ( highest ranked team not in the event). 2) 2 evenly balanced pools of 8. 3) round robin in each pool with top 3 in each to the playoffs. 4). 2 vrs 3 in each pool, winner to semis against 1 from each pool. Semis winners play for gold and silver. Semis losers play for bronze. And no one gets a ruddy second chance in the playoffs! And no relegation!


But it's a useful digression, IMO, and I think it's a great idea!

The playoff structure would reward the teams that do the best in the round-robin AND make the TV people happy. Fans could come from a long way away to support their team, and know they would be involved for most of the week. Brilliant!

You might even think about 18 teams. Then you would have spots for the 3 top ranked teams which didn't qualify otherwise.

That seems pretty generous to me. If I don't win my province, and I don't rank in the top 3 among teams that didn't win their provinces, can anybody really complain that I didn't have a chance to play for the national championship?

If they did that for the Scotties, this year's field would include all the provincial winners, plus Homan, Sweeting, and Fleury. Nobody would be saying it was a weak field.

No matter who won the provincial titles, both pools would always have at least a couple of monsters. And the fights for first place in the pools would be really interesting.

The more I think about it, the more I think you've found the solution that Warren Hansen was looking for.

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02-11-16 12:28AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Prawnpuller
IMO you have 3 or 4 teams playing for our National championship that could'nt win the Sunday morning hangover spiel.....sorry not a slag on any particular area of our country but just a fact of life.


I don't think there's anything wrong with that. IMO if they're the best team from their part of the country, they deserve a chance to compete at the national level.

If you don't want to watch them play, you don't have to. And if they are as bad as you say, they won't be on TV, either. So what's the problem?

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02-11-16 01:02AM
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To declare our best who will go on to compete at the Worlds/Olympics I think some of the teams like Epping or a Sweeting in the ladies would make a better national championship.....Don't know the logistics just would like to see our BEST competing at this level.......getting a little off the topic here but I'm into it now lol.
In the recent junior play downs for example believe the Dunstone Mb team beat a team 30- 2 or something like that....I believe CurlingCanada would be better served to send the winner(Dunstone) team up to that region and spend a week there teaching these kids to become competitive.

In short at the Nationals I want to see our best competing.......that hangover spiel I mentioned a while back would be a good training ground for others.

Not trying to ruffle feathers here....just my opinion.....peace






Two things can happen............One is bad

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02-11-16 01:55AM
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peteski
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quote:
Originally posted by Par


But it is also quite common for the difference between first and second to be quite significant.

It is getting more and more common to see one team finishing well clear of the field, and sometimes, as in the most recent Ontario Scotties, there's a three-way tie for second, far behind the leaders.

When this happens, one of the tied teams goes to the 1-2 game, where they can lose and still reach the semi-final.

But the other two tied teams go to the 3-4 game, where they need to win to make the semi-final.

As pointed out previously by UnattachedFC, this gives one of the tied teams more than twice as much chance of winning the event than the other two combined.

And that makes no sense.

I agree the Page System is better than (1 vs 4) and (2 vs 3), because I think it's a very good thing to have a playoff structure that rewards excellence in the round-robin.

And this is why I would like to see a Modified Page System, where:

If there's a tie for first place in the round-robin, there's a 1-2 game. The winner goes to the final and the loser goes to the semi-final. Otherwise the round-robin winner goes directly to the final.

If there's a tie for second place, there's a 2-3 game. The winner goes to the semi-final, and the loser goes to the 3-4 game. Otherwise the second place team goes directly to the semifinal.

The 3-4 game always happens, whether there's a tie for third place or not. The winner goes to the semifinal and the loser is out.

As with any round-robin, tie-breakers may be required in addition to the scheduled games.

~~~

But I don't expect this Modified Page System to be adopted, anywhere, ever ... if only because it makes so much sense.



A lot of interesting stuff in this thread, so before I start disagreeing with people, I just wanted to say I like this idea. I think if there's a tie for second, I would suggest just going with a 3-4 game, winner plays 2 (based on tiebreaking procedures), winner plays 1. I guess I just think a second chance game should be reserved for the team(s) at the top. I admit this is quibbling.

What do you do if there are three or four teams tied at the top?

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02-11-16 02:02AM
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peteski
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quote:
Originally posted by Netz
Maybe I do not understand things properly, but it continues to amaze me that we get all this backlash, year after year, regarding the page system, but we never hear a peep about the Grand Slam events.

A 5-0 team in the GS and a 3-2 team are on even ground in the playoffs, one loss and you are out, Is that fair.



As much as I like the slams, these events are just not as important. That is why you don't hear a peep.

Perhaps they could go to a NFL style six teams make the playoffs and the top two teams in the round robin get a bye to the semis, but otherwise, I'm not really sure what you would do.

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02-11-16 02:12AM
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Re: Page playoffs

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck
It's playoffs. All bets are off. It is what makes playoffs exciting. And by the way, there is nothing preventing the Scotties, or the Brier from having more teams make playoffs. The 1/2 game may feature good teams, but deep down they must know that if they lose, they are still ok. Don't get me started about the Bronze medal game!


It is an interesting debate. I'm starting to see the value of straight semifinals in international competition (although this year's men's Europeans are an example of its downside). I just think the Canadian championships have a tradition of valuing round robin success in their various formats. If you were going to make any change, I think it would be preferable to go with a 4 plays 3, winner plays 2 and then winner plays 1 in the final.

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02-11-16 02:38AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Par


People keep saying that, but I don't believe them.

God forbid anybody should ever say to a broadcaster, "This is the format of our championship. Do you want to cover it? Or should we sell the rights to one of your competitors?"

In the NHL playoffs, there are 15 series, 4 to 7 games each. That's 15*4 = 60 games that will definitely be played, and 15*3 = 45 games that might not be played. Who wants to cover it? Everybody.

A triple knockout would consist of many draws that would definitely be played, and 2 draws that might not be played.

So my question is: If TV networks will cover NHL playoffs even though the schedule calls for 45 games that might not be played, are they really going to refuse a curling event just because the schedule calls for 2 draws that might not be played?



Don't you think the NHL has more pull with the networks than curling? I realize curling does pretty good numbers on TV, but I believe one reason the final always does so well is that it is a winner take all game.

I think you underestimate the difficulty a sport like curling would have in asking TV networks to set aside 3 hour blocks for games that might not happen in their valuable weekend space. It is simply not the NHL.

This is all academic anyway, because it's not going to happen at least for the national championships. It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I've never heard any players complain about the winner take all final (as I have for the page format) and it's not like it has produced poor representatives for Canada (yes Canada is in a world championship slump, but how many reps would you quibble with?).

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02-11-16 02:54AM
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Re: Page playoff

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck
I see we digress. The BEST format for the Scotties/Brier is: 1) have 16 teams, Team Canada, 10 provinces, 3 territories, Northern Ontario AND a wildcard team ( highest ranked team not in the event). 2) 2 evenly balanced pools of 8. 3) round robin in each pool with top 3 in each to the playoffs. 4). 2 vrs 3 in each pool, winner to semis against 1 from each pool. Semis winners play for gold and silver. Semis losers play for bronze. And no one gets a ruddy second chance in the playoffs! And no relegation!


I'm not a big time traditionalist when it comes to the Brier/Scotties (I liked seeing team Canada added to the Brier, for example), but I think if you start adding tour teams that didn't win a provincial, then you may as well just have the Canada Cup decide our rep. These events are different. It's not team Howard, it's team Ontario. What would you call this tour team. I just think it starts to take away from what makes these events special.

I also like that all the teams in the main draw play each other. The value of the two pools is in your playoff format. I just don't have a real problem with the current format.

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02-11-16 05:05AM
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Exactly........Lets face it...the Brier has always been a special event ..Everyone that ever chunked a rock dreams of going to the Brier or STOH.The game has changed so much over the last 30 years or so along with the playoff format.
I think the page is the best format for this competition at present.....I just wish we could declare a National champion some other way with ALL the top teams competing and still retain the Brier in all its glory.

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02-11-16 07:09AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Prawnpuller
Exactly........Lets face it...the Brier has always been a special event ..Everyone that ever chunked a rock dreams of going to the Brier or STOH.The game has changed so much over the last 30 years or so along with the playoff format.
I think the page is the best format for this competition at present.....I just wish we could declare a National champion some other way with ALL the top teams competing and still retain the Brier in all its glory.


I understand what you're saying, but, realistically, all the top teams DO compete to be the National Champion - via the provincial playdowns. The provincial playdowns can be considered the preliminary rounds of the Brier - like the first couple of rounds of the NHL playoffs. The top teams in the NHL don't play each other in the first few rounds of the NHL playoffs, either - they have to earn their way there. Same with curling.
What's the difference if a given team does not win their province, or if they don't win a wider tournament? The bottom line is still and always will be that if you win, you move on - if you lose, you go home.
The only difference is that all the top teams are not competing directly against each other. But, hey - win your province, and you get to play against top teams. If you can't win your province, you can't win the Brier - just as if you cant win the first or second round of the NHL playoffs, you can't win the Stanley Cup.

It is thus as it should be - to the victor go the spoils.

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Last edited by On The Nose on 02-11-16 at 07:11AM

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02-11-16 07:47AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Par


Bingo!

If it takes three games to get eliminated, nobody can ever complain that a strong team got ambushed by a weak one.

And no late games are meaningless, and no tie-breakers are ever required!



Precisely! The best team will win with this draw 99% of the time. I don't like the TKO with qualifiers or the Page as much because if there are two good teams, one team often beats the other twice, then has to beat them a third time. So, the winner has wone one out of three. The non-modified fixes that.

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Curling Scores

W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: W6 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 4:00pm CT
Berg Final
Scheel (10) Watch Live Curling!
Berg Final
Schapman (10) Watch Live Curling!
Giroux 10  Final
Pekowitz (9) Watch Live Curling!
Viau Final
Johnson (10) Watch Live Curling!
M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: M6 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 12:00pm CT
Church Final
Rose (9) Watch Live Curling!
Brenden Final
Guentzel (9) Watch Live Curling!
Fitzgerald Final
Hebert (9) Watch Live Curling!
Lannoye Final
Cenzalli (10) Watch Live Curling!
M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
Lott/Lott Final
Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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