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11-10-14 06:16PM
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milobloom
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Match Play Rules for the Elite 10

Needless to say, I'm thrilled to hear there are new rules being used at the upcoming Fort McMurray Grand Slam event. Yes, I know it's not until March, but ahead of an article I plan to write, I'd like to put out a request for comments and thoughts on:

1. How will teams adjust their style of play?
2. What will fans and TV viewers think?
3. Which teams will have an advantage (if any) at this format?

As I understand, the rules are as follows:

- 5 rock FGZ
- 8 end game
- each end is played to be Won or Halved. If a team takes 2 or more with hammer or steals 1 or more without hammer, they WIN the end. If the end is blanked or team with hammer is held to 1 then the end is HALVED.
- There are no carry overs. A team that gets behind will need to come back one end at a time. A team that gets down 4 ends to 1 after 5 ends will need to win the last 3 ends to tie the game (this is considered DORMIE in golf).
- Not sure the ruling on ties. For round robin games could be scored as a half for each team but play-offs need a winner. Who receives hammer in the case of an extra end? I just hope it's not a draw to button (Gerry?)

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11-11-14 05:48AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
The winner of the game receives three points if they are victorious in eight ends or less.

If the game goes to an overtime shootout, the winning team receives two points and the losing team gets a single point.


http://www.thegrandslamofcurling.co...lite-10-format/

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11-11-14 09:52AM
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the scoring rules sound really stupid

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11-11-14 09:53AM
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Does a blanking team keep the hammer?

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11-11-14 10:50AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ngm
Does a blanking team keep the hammer?


No. A halved end results in hammer changing the next end.

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11-11-14 10:51AM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
the scoring rules sound really stupid


Could you elaborate on why you feel this way?

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11-11-14 12:32PM
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what is the "overtime shootout"?
Is that a draw to the button? an extra end? something else?

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11-11-14 01:32PM
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For #1 and #3 above it seems that teams who have done well with skins in the past should do well with match play.

For #2, who knows. Match play has never been super-popular among golf fans (outside the Ryder Cup and the earlier days of the now-defunct PGA Skins Game). Some fans never like variations of any kind. But for the rest it seems like it could hold their interest because there should be fewer blowouts on average. I wonder whether curling fans will like it more or less than skins.

The standard curling game already has a major feature of match play built in. Two teams play only each other, not the entire field. Standard curling also already has a "risk-taking aggressiveness option" built in, a team can try to score a bigger end. So does match play really add that much more risk taking, aggressiveness and excitement? I'm not sure it can equal the excitement of Gushue and McEwen exchanging 4-ends at the Masters.

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11-11-14 03:43PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
the scoring rules sound really stupid


By "stupid", do you mean "different", "new", or "unfamiliar to me"?

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11-11-14 04:05PM
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quote:
Originally posted by milobloom


Could you elaborate on why you feel this way?



i just dont see the need for changing the scoring format. this is a unique event and i get that but that doesnt mean they need to change the way the game is scored.

i mean..from what i understand you only win an end by scoring 2 or more points or stealing, there are no carry overs like their are in skins. that is fine with me. but the fact that some ends are going to be halved in points is stupid and so is a possiblility of a tie. a match should have a winner or loser, there shouldnt be tied games.

to me these scoring changes wont make the game more exciting or interesting. it wont change things.

Last edited by misty1 on 11-11-14 at 04:10PM

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11-11-14 04:08PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ngm


By "stupid", do you mean "different", "new", or "unfamiliar to me"?



no by stupid i mean stupid and thats it.

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11-11-14 04:44PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


The McEwen/Goo exchange of 4-bombs happens every 10 years. Maybe?



it'll never happen in match play because nobody cares about scoring 4.

The point is that it's not clear that match-play curling will add any excitement over standard curling. Standard curling already encourages aggression/risk-taking and already showcases team vs. team.

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11-11-14 06:02PM
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at least it prevents that teams get a big lead and then run away with it. However the game could still be over after 5 ends.

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11-11-14 06:46PM
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Can we agree that the Grand Slams likely need something to make them different from each other? I find there is nothing to tell them apart. Perhaps going to the same location/area of Canada each year, changing the format (round robin vs knockout), more or less international teams, match play, etc. This is a good idea that may not work but I'm interested to see how it plays out.

Personally, I'd like to see the Masters go to the same location every year, likely a stuffy country club in Toronto filled with an exclusive membership. The Open narrows the sheets and puts higher frost around the rings. The National is played match play and the Players includes an island house surrounded by water for one end.

Thoughts?

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11-11-14 07:02PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rbi


The point is that it's not clear that match-play curling will add any excitement over standard curling. Standard curling already encourages aggression/risk-taking and already showcases team vs. team.



Standard curling encourages aggression from the team behind, but not from the team in front. This is a significant difference. There's no downside in the match-play format for the team ahead to play aggressively. This type of event is on an excitement freeroll as far as I can tell. Can't be less exciting, but can be more. That doesn't mean it should be like this all the time, but with so many events on the curling calendar, it makes sense to add some variety. I know they have been looking for ways to differentiate each slam which I think makes some sense (for this reason I was surprised they put all the slams under the five rock rule and not just one).

I am glad they are halving ends and not using carryovers. I think this makes more sense.

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11-11-14 07:27PM
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quote:
Originally posted by milobloom
Can we agree that the Grand Slams likely need something to make them different from each other? I find there is nothing to tell them apart. Perhaps going to the same location/area of Canada each year, changing the format (round robin vs knockout), more or less international teams, match play, etc. This is a good idea that may not work but I'm interested to see how it plays out.

Personally, I'd like to see the Masters go to the same location every year, likely a stuffy country club in Toronto filled with an exclusive membership. The Open narrows the sheets and puts higher frost around the rings. The National is played match play and the Players includes an island house surrounded by water for one end.

Thoughts?



Lol. I like it. Maybe one can be played under windy conditions.

I do agree there is room for changing formats and I like the ideas you brought up. You could have one that is all Canadian teams and The National conflicts this year with the European Championship anyway, so that might make sense. You could have one with a Canadian division and an International division. I'm not a big fan of the three pool format. Why not a two pool format with an actual page playoff? Or a triple knockout?

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11-11-14 07:58PM
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quote:
Originally posted by milobloom
Can we agree that the Grand Slams likely need something to make them different from each other? I find there is nothing to tell them apart. Perhaps going to the same location/area of Canada each year, changing the format (round robin vs knockout), more or less international teams, match play, etc. This is a good idea that may not work but I'm interested to see how it plays out.

Personally, I'd like to see the Masters go to the same location every year, likely a stuffy country club in Toronto filled with an exclusive membership. The Open narrows the sheets and puts higher frost around the rings. The National is played match play and the Players includes an island house surrounded by water for one end.

Thoughts?



differing the slams from each other does kind of make sense. you could have one with a pools format, one as a triple knockout, one having that second division event they tried a couple years ago and one with a skins format style of play. The halving of the scores in an end when a team cant get 2 or more or steal is my biggest complaint. thats just stupid.There is not one good reason at all that a team who cant get a point in and end should still walk away with something. i say if you are the team with hammer and all you can generate is one then you should get your one and the other team shouldnt get anything.

i also agree it would make more sense if they each had a designated location instead of moving them around. the lower level events have set locations so the slams should as well

Last edited by misty1 on 11-11-14 at 08:04PM

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11-11-14 08:53PM
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I like the idea of a different format for each Slam, but the thought of having each Slam in the same location destroys the ability of most people to view a Slam in person. The Masters was in Selkirk and it was an excellent opportunity for the locals to see most of the best curlers in the world. Every place with a suitable venue and a committee that would work hard to put an event on should get the opportunity to have a Slam.

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11-11-14 11:27PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Donr
I like the idea of a different format for each Slam, but the thought of having each Slam in the same location destroys the ability of most people to view a Slam in person. The Masters was in Selkirk and it was an excellent opportunity for the locals to see most of the best curlers in the world. Every place with a suitable venue and a committee that would work hard to put an event on should get the opportunity to have a Slam.


Agreed but maybe each could be in the same general region each year? Perhaps one in BC/AB, one in Sask/MB, one in ON/QUE and one in Maritimes?

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11-12-14 02:53PM
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The awarding of three points for winning in less than 8 ends makes no sense to me. As well as allowing a game to end in a tie.

I am intrigued by the skins style format for winning an end. But honestly, a blank end should not award a half point. The point should be carried over to the next end.

To reduce the number of blanks-and likely ensure that very few games would end in 5 ends-I suggest the use of an alternating hammer.

The draw to the button at the conclusion of practice would now be used to determine the winning teams choice of hammer in the odd or even ends of a game of choice of rock colour. Teams losing the draw-off would be given the choice not taken by the winning team.

An alternating hammer would likely discourage any team from blanking and forcing a carry over since they would not retain hammer going into the next end.

However, I am against rule changes in what are sold to the public and curlers as the 'prestige events' on the tour. The Slams award large amounts of CTRS points to their entrants, in some case more points to a team winning one game than other teams receive for winning medium size WCT events. Additionally, the Slams have small fields-unlike golf's slams which feature regular PGA sized fields-again rewarding only a few teams with large points.

The Slams should be showcases of the sport and its existing rules, not experiments. The five rock rule and the match play rule are worth trying out, but that should be done in smaller purse events with large fields to gather more information and a larger player feedback sample size.

Frankly, IMO, making the teams at Slams Guinea Pigs cheapens the events.

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Last edited by jamcan on 11-12-14 at 02:57PM

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11-12-14 08:31PM
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Alternating hammer in Skins/Match Play format INCREASES the chance of a blowout and a game ending early.

In Skins/Match Play, when you blank or only score 1 to carryover or halve the end, the hammer reverts to the opponent anyways. The only situation the hammer does not switch is when a steal occurs.

If you forced the team who just gave up a steal to also give up hammer, there's a better chance they're also going to lose the next end as well.

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11-12-14 11:31PM
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Then your press release on the events webpage needs correcting. It mentions no carryovers, but says nothing about the blanking team losing hammer.

Otherwise, disagree re more blowouts with alternating hammer. Your not going to waste last rock when your guaranteed not to have it, with a carryover and hammer going to your opponent.

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11-13-14 12:26AM
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That's how it works in Skins curling. When the end is carried over, the hammer switches teams. Doesn't matter if it's a blank or a single point scored.

The press release is fine. It differentiates match play from skins by saying there are no carryovers.

You're right about not "wasting" hammer when you have it, but I don't get how that makes for more blowouts. If you have hammer and give up a steal, at least you have the better chance next end to tie the game up. With hammer/steal numbers being about 66/33 in skins games when a team gets a skin last I saw, it's much more likely a team will be up 2-0 when giving up a steal and giving up hammer than tied 1-1. That's if alternating hammer was used.

If you want closer games, the team giving up a steal shouldn't lose hammer.

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11-17-14 02:57PM
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what if all ends were win/loss.

The team with hammer would win if they scored two or more, or blanked.

The team without the hammer would win the end if they stole or forced the opposition to take a single.

you can make it a best of x ends or you could play 8 ends every game with every single end counting towards the round-robin ranking.

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