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02-02-15 04:24PM |
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Alice
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 324 |
MNiceman, What is the meaning of "fair" to you?
Is it fair for some players to have HP program support despite not having won a nationals in the last 24 months? Is it fair for a team to win nationals but not go to worlds thanks to the OOM Points system? Is it fair for a fifth or coach who worked hard supporting a team all season long not go to worlds thanks to the new USCA adhesion contracts competitors must sign to compete? Is it fair for some competitive teams to get invites to OOM matches but not all teams?
But, I'm guessing you're talking about "fairness" meaning the indoor elite players shouldn't be expected to be smart enough to know how to figure out how to deal with wonky ice arena curlers deal with every week even for short 4 - 6 end outdoor games in an 8 team field like the Red Square Classic. Poor dears. Those arena ice skills like figuring out how to deal with ridges, shelves, bowls, and valleys might ruin their very delicate "perfect" ice skills. (I await a natural ice OOM event with ridges, heaves, bubbles, cracks and the unnervingly clear black ice with views to a lake or river bottom below.)
Ice is never perfectly flat and smooth, nor are the stones' running surfaces all exactly the same. Players are not push button fungible robots. Coaching skills are never perfect for all players. Flu bugs don't affect all players the same! Neither sports or life is ever truly fair.
Last edited by Alice on 02-02-15 at 04:35PM
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02-02-15 05:13PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Oh geez, Alice...don't be callin' out Mniceman unless your willing to take over his role doing the math on Points for us. Unfair? Tiny TerroriSt's shot in the last end of the Mixed Doubles semifinal taught Mnice all he needs to know about unfair.
Mniceman, by the way, does not stand for Minnesota Ice Man. It is: m nice man...and yes he is...a very nice man.
Outdoor Alice defending a Zamboni ridge? OK, I'll bite: The higher caliber the ice, the more often the better team wins. The lower the quality of the ice, them more likely the lessor team wins. Fair? Fair is not for this world. Fair is for when Jesus brings us the Kingdom Of God. Until then, trying hard is the best we can do. The Moscow ice wasn't very good even for outdoor ice. It could have been better without extraordinary effort, so therefore it was unfair.
GO BRADY! The Bunch, The Brownies and Dropkin The Younger in the Top Three is not out of the question. Maybe I'm wrong in declaring that Brady is our Most Popular Curler, but I think I'm right. Don't get too excited, Brady, and don't get too used to it. The title is probably just yours until Sarah Anderson decides she wants it...then you are just another rock slider. (OK, that paragraph was just to amuse myself)
Ben Tucker
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02-02-15 05:43PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
quote: Originally posted by tuck
Outdoor Alice defending a Zamboni ridge? OK, I'll bite: The higher caliber the ice, the more often the better team wins. The lower the quality of the ice, them more likely the lessor team wins. Fair?
Disagree.
the higher caliber the ice, the more often the team that is better at *certain curling skills* wins. Those skills being precision control of shotmaking on about as close to an ideal plain as you get outside of a physics class.
The lower caliber the ice, the more often the team that is better at *certain other curling skills* wins. Those skills being learning and reading the ice surface and adapting to it's unique idiosyncrasies.
If you ask me, that second skillset is far, far harder to pick up than the first.
we've made the game too easy and too consistent for bad strategists. WE've eliminated variables from the curling equation. YEs, that's led to more quadruple raise takeouts which the chicks dig...but it's lost the soul of the game.
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02-02-15 06:58PM |
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Alice
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 324 |
Thanks, Alan.
In theory, I could agree with Tuck or MNIceman on which ice type and requisite skill set is "better"... but that all depends on how better, best, etc. is defined.
For example, is Glenn Howard a "better" curler than all others in his province after he lost out on qualifying for the Ontario provincial this year as some say due to bad ice? Is a nationals "better" in Canada if all provinces are there versus more from Ontario as the annual debate rages about which provinces get which slots at the Brier and Scotties. Or the dying USA debate about regional slots at our nationals?
And who are the "best" curlers anyway? Just those who win multiple Olympic golds as a skip to prove they were "hot" not just one week? Those who win or place at their nationals for more than 10 years? Would anyone deny the Richardson brothers are not of the best despite never winning an Olympic medal? Or Sandra Schmirler who just won one? When I look at the curlers going to all our nationals, I wonder which ones will have that sort of fame decades later.
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02-02-15 09:58PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Come on folks. Define "fair" however you like but there is no place for outdoor ice with Zamboni ridges in any type of competitive curling. Reading ice is a skill that was more important before it was decided that competitive curlers should be able to practice on their sheet of ice before each game and, even worse, that ice should be as consistent as possible from week to week and venue to venue. But Zamboni-ed ice, and the reading thereof, should not even be in any conversation about competitive curling.
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02-02-15 11:45PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Alan and Alice...uuummmm....NO!
You both volunteer time for curling and both obviously love the sport and neither of you are idiots, so I took the time to respect your logic of different curling skills. You want to respect the "cagey" curler who uses adverse ice to an advantage. I warn you that the logic will not stand the test of time. Poll all curlers with over 1,000 games played and an IQ above their body temperature and the poll will show over 99% disagreeing with you.
We work hard on ice for a good reason.
We clean the ice because crap on the ice increases the Luck Factor and diminishes the skill factor which leads to unfair upsets. Can a cagey team use the debris to their advantage? Yes. Old corn days were full of them.
We try to keep handprints and flat spots to a minimum. Same reason. More skill and less luck. Can shrewd skips use those spots? Yes.
Trust me on this one. I was a very good "bad ice" curler. A 2 foot fall was right in my wheelhouse. Nobody wants to see big games on bad ice. Nobody (with the possible exception of you two) want to see Points awarded on bad ice. Everybody thanks the ice crew when the playing field is fair.
Ben Tucker
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02-03-15 04:19AM |
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Alice
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 324 |
Why so hard to have a modicum of grudging respect for a competitive curler who can routinely read non-ideal ice? Why not provide ice makers at Red Square laser-leveled Zambonis, make them drive figure eights and do all the other skills to make better arena or outdoor ice for a small 8 team OOM event? (Just try stuffing Russia's newest OOM event into a garbage bin of disdain... with a defending Russian champion.)
Of course!, the modern indoor game is a world of difference from the old outdoor game and the "new" arena game. I try to be inclusive and creative and that Red Square match got me thinking about how sports can evolve over time.
Skiing a hundred years ago was on thick wooden skis with one big pole in the hands for balance. A bit of ski jumping, short downhill runs with awkward turns and a bit more cross country all restricted to just a small handfull of countries and mostly for transport, not sport. Davos and St. Moritz in Switzerland catered to tuberculous patients and summer tourists. Today both are meccas for winter sports and we have Olympic skiing events drawing competitors from around the planet rocketing over moguls and flipping through the air with ski boards. Few denigrate those skiiers' results on less-than-perfect snow. Their sport's "luck" factor doesn't diminish their wins while the constantly evolving skiing methods make skiing very popular.
I'm simply saying the outdoor and arena less-than-ideal ice games could have some competitive value somewhere to some on the OOM rosters for a few optional events. I'd hope the "best" curlers would likely excel at those as well as on great indoor ice. And, just like skiing, I'd expect each different curling method has its fans while there will always be those who disdain one type or another while there are others who like any kind.
I've a great respect for curlers who've devoted decades to perfecting their game on "best" ice and immense respect for the ice makers I see exhausted anywhere I've seen great ice. But I also have great respect for new clubs getting a start on arena ice and the Russians who started the Red Square Classic, and if the results there have an impact on the US Men's Nationals I will be smiling.
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02-03-15 10:14AM |
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MNIceman
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159 |
Outdoor Zamboni ice is a long long way from being 'less than perfect'.
I agree that the top teams in the world should be able to adapt to 'less than perfect' club ice that includes some very straight spots and even some slight negative ice.
I wouldn't mind if the US Nationals was played outdoors on freshly Zambonied ice. More ridges the better. I'd have a better chance of winning. I'd even sign up Tuck and together we'd be unstoppable!
Imagine if Russia wanted to promote golf in the area. So they put together a nine hole course, invited a few of the top PGA players to attend and play against a few top Russian golfers and played a one or two day event. Don't you think other PGA golfers would be a little upset if this event gave out the same FedEx Cup points as other PGA Tour events? Now what if one of the US golfers that got the invite to Russia somehow got a spot on the US Ryder Cup team because of the points he earned in Russia. (pretty sure Ryder Cup team isn't picked this way but what if it was?)
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02-03-15 11:43AM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Gawddamnit, Alice! See! Now you got me playing with 'M Nice Man! My left knee wants me to put on a Bob Marley record, smoke some pot and lay a wicked voodoo curse on you. (Relax, you're safe. I never really liked Bob Marley and I hate pot.)
Now my blood pressure is shooting up. Not only do I want to strangle Alice and beat Alan to death with his own stick, I have to find a front end for me and Pete. I wonder if Owen and The Ned are busy? Now there's some good Bad Ice curlers. Best bad ice curler I ever saw: Steve Brown. Pusty was pretty good as well. Todd BooBoo Birr would also make that list.
OK, I'm done. Kalamazoo hasn't even made the ice yet and this thread is on page three.
GO FACE TEAM!
Ben Tucker
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02-03-15 11:51AM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
Meh, you couldn't even get a good bruise on me with my delivery stick...the damned thing is flimsy aluminum...hell, it almost feels like it's gonna bend just when I throw a "OMG, Sticks are overpowered!" takeout (never mind that it's still a slower stone than others are capable of throwing)
And I think Alice and MN are overstating *my* position...I don't think "made for tv" events such as the Red Square Challenge should have points attached. In my world, no event that didn't have an "open" qualifying option available (even if for only one spot in the field) would have points. That way, at least the field is kinda level, in that there aren't events that only the top 24 can *possibly* get points at which also, coincidentally, end up awarding far more than the average points because "only the top 24 are playing"
As for zamboni marks...meh, if you're really the best curler in the world, you should be able to cope, at least as well as Joe Schmo can cope...personally, I'm wondering why they used a zamboni rather than a scraper, but it's not my ice to maintain.
The PBA changes oil patterns regularly, specifically to make the game harder for their top bowlers. Are we really saying that bowlers are better at bowling than our best curlers are at curling, since our curlers shouldn't be exposed to ice that hasn't been lovingly fawned over?
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02-03-15 11:54AM |
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Norse Curler
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 19 |
Nostrawhomus?
May Odin deem Face & Heater worthy of entry, that they may perfect their skills in the perpetual battle within the wolf and eagle guarded, spear and shield thatched place that is Valhalla. May they emerge healed and ready for battle, for a championship match with Face the victor (6-5) EE.
__________________
Norse Curler
SKOL
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02-03-15 11:59AM |
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MNIceman
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159 |
Bad Zamboni ice would be the bowling equivalent of a pro bowler trying to pick up a spare where only the 7 pin is standing and they feel like they threw the ball very well but the ball ends up in the gutter on the 10 pin side.
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02-03-15 01:19PM |
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courtneyshaw
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 41 |
The merits of good ice vs. bad ice and luck vs. skill aside, I don't think it changes the fact that an outdoor exhibition with 6 end games seems like a strange choice of events for which to award points.
Maybe that's the key for the non-HPP teams. Get your home club to throw you an event and invite all the WCT ranked curling friends you can convince to play it!
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02-03-15 01:32PM |
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ChiefIceMinion
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Nov 2012
Location: In the crawlspace
Posts: 83 |
Our annual January frost heave is well underway. We should have Nationals at Plainfield -- 6-7' towards the wall, 0 to minus 6 inches plus tracking scraper lines away from the wall. That'd make for a good poor ice reading challenge....
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02-03-15 04:10PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
quote: Originally posted by courtneyshaw
The merits of good ice vs. bad ice and luck vs. skill aside, I don't think it changes the fact that an outdoor exhibition with 6 end games seems like a strange choice of events for which to award points.
Maybe that's the key for the non-HPP teams. Get your home club to throw you an event and invite all the WCT ranked curling friends you can convince to play it!
Let this be the end of this ridiculous consideration of good ice vs Zamboni ice.
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02-03-15 08:27PM |
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Frykenstein
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 61 |
quote: Originally posted by ChiefIceMinion
Our annual January frost heave is well underway.
Maybe if you ask nicely jhcurl will go into the crawl space and fix it. No tinfoil hat needed down there.
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02-04-15 03:13PM |
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bjacks217
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Michigan, United States
Posts: 22 |
I thought this thread was about Mens Nationals...
What are the odds of both HPP teams not being in the top 3? I assume they are longer odds than 20-1.
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02-04-15 03:14PM |
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licurler
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2014
Location:
Posts: 15 |
quote: Originally posted by ChiefIceMinion
Our annual January frost heave is well underway. We should have Nationals at Plainfield -- 6-7' towards the wall, 0 to minus 6 inches plus tracking scraper lines away from the wall. That'd make for a good poor ice reading challenge....
Case in point: The LICC won our first bonspiel "first event" title at the Bonsqueal last year, because we were able to read the negative ice at Plainfield. Why? Because we're used to seeing terrible ice on our hockey arena. Now, does that mean that we should be considered "great curlers", because we were able to read that ice and others weren't? H-E-double-hockey-sticks no! But we had fun trying! Still, the best curlers in the world are those that beat everybody else under the optimal conditions. I agree with Tuck.
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02-04-15 03:28PM |
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MNIceman
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159 |
quote: Originally posted by bjacks217
I thought this thread was about Mens Nationals...
What are the odds of both HPP teams not being in the top 3? I assume they are longer odds than 20-1.
Sorry, got a little sidetracked. Chances are pretty low that both HPP teams will miss the top three. The chances are even worse that Shuster will also miss the top three and that is what everyone else would need.
Points shouldn't change now before Nationals. Team USA standings are updated at shotrockcurling.com. Winner of Nationals will receive 45 pts toward World Qualification, 2nd 35 pts, 3rd 30 pts.
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02-04-15 03:39PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Odds of both missing the Top 3? Curious question, since Face Team has more points and (if they make the Gold Medal Game) can advance to Worlds without winning it. But I'll bite and give it go:
Heater makes the Top Three 8 out of 10 times if this field was to play 10 times. 20% failure rate. The Brownies make the Top Three 7 out of 10 such meetings. 30% failure rate. For both to happen simultaneously, it would be .20 times .30 which equals 0.06%...which is about exactly 20 to 1...so you nailed it. Just my thinking and my math. Use your own and let us know your odds. I see bjacks is in Michigan, so Beer Wagers might be accepted onsite.
As the house, I'm only going to offer you 12 to 1. Willy The Wise taught me never to be generous. Plus, I have tons of respect for Craig and Heath.
Ben Tucker
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02-04-15 04:30PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
Now that we are back talking about the actual play. We need some prop bets set up. Have one so far.
Both HPP teams missing top 3 12-1
All three top OOM teams missing top 3 99-1
Players complaining about wonky ice/rocks 1-1
Ice/rocks actually being wonky 500-1 (equipment failure not included)
Anybody else?
JH
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02-04-15 09:22PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Nice work, JH.
MnIceman has me now convinced: The prop bet for Will The Finals Impact Who Goes To Worlds is now off-the-board. No bets. You snooze, you lose.
Outside of a Heater/Face finals, I don't see any probable Gold Medal games having a direct impact. The USA was close to making it more Points, but we came up just short.
New prop bets:
Brady Clark's back goes SnapCracklePop 1 to 1
Cristin Clark comes out of the stands to play for a team stricken with the flu 4 to 1 (flu always hits the Women's field and not many teams are toting a fifth)
Midwest teams are better dressed than the East Coast teams 79 to 1
Ben "Tuck" Tucker
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02-10-15 07:21PM |
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Norse Curler
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 19 |
Cant wait for it to start. Prediction is in but really rooting for any 2 teams from the challenge round to get to the finals instead of the pre qualified teams.
__________________
Norse Curler
SKOL
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02-10-15 07:53PM |
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Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
I may have missed the big discussion, but are next year's finals being held in Jacksonville, Florida?
__________________
Jim
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02-11-15 12:20AM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
quote: Originally posted by tuck
Outside of a Heater/Face finals, I don't see any probable Gold Medal games having a direct impact.
So I should be interested in the nationals because...?
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