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I would suggest that the "European" method works for Europe for 2 reasons:

1. There really aren't that many curlers to choose from and,
2. They don't have to travel very far to practise.

For countries the size of Canada & the States I still say that the best way to assemble a rink is to let the players do it themselves. You get a better sense of camaraderie and you get to practise together at least 2 days a week in addition to doing regular spieling. I'm basing my argument by what your website says are the residences of the players.

When you think about it, it's somewhat ironic that the United States would model its system on Europe. Folks, the best curling development system is right next door-and from what I'm seeing on the netcast there's enough good young (I still like Patti) talent there to put together international contenders-but they have to be given a chance to develop TOGETHER.

Look at a guy like Heath McCormick-over the past few years, he's represented so many clubs from all over the States that his "Frequent Flyer" account has to rival that of Hans Frauenlob! ...and what does it accomplish? Yes I know that he's there on a point basis. Let him put together a Michigan rink and curl against teams in Windsor and Sarnia when his rink isn't "on the circuit".

How does Korey Dropkin's rink represent Blaine when the only player from Washington is the alternate? I've actually visited Blaine (the ferry from Victoria stops there)...it's a nice place but is it really the "Hotbed" of American curling? I wonder how many of these "Blaine" curlers have ever actually visited the town?

This is just my two cents (Canadian-actually we don't have pennies anymore), but like I've been saying-a strong US rivalry (as in hockey) is just as, if not more important for the long-term development of the game in North America than the pro tour...and don't get me started on why a US rink only plays in every second Continental Cup.

Hans-if you see this, you know who I am-it's all in fun (although I'm betting that your Air Miles account is probably a work of art-and Air New Zealand to boot!)

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Last edited by Jimbobogie on 02-20-15 at 02:03PM

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quote:

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[i]

How does Korey Dropkin's rink represent Blaine when the only player from Washington is the alternate?

...and don't get me started on why a US rink only plays in every second Continental Cup. [/B]

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Hey Jimbo,

Blaine in this case is Blaine, Minnesota. The Four Seasons Curling Club is the national training center for USAC and all HPP teams "curl" out of Blaine. I'm not sure how often they all really curl here but all men's HPP teams were here last month for the US Open, Heath McCormick and Nina Roth were here for the US Grand Prix (aka Curling Night in America) in December, and Heath McCormick was here for the Brazil-USA challenge, during which Nina Roth and Aileen Sormunen were scrimmaging a few sheets over.

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...for-USA-Curling

Last edited by gonzobob on 02-19-15 at 11:41PM

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Wow. Aileen getting the Worlds spot and rendering the playoffs less meaningful has really livened up Curlingzone.

Misty: Yeah. Aileen was last on the international stage in World Juniors. Both 2004 and 2007. She made the playoffs both times. IF they win gold in Kalamazoo and IF they play like they did in the Colonial Squares (wins over Paetz and Sweeting), they could medal at Worlds.

My Three Sons: For curlers to "walk away from" or strike against our playdowns would be a huge mistake. The powers-that-be are only interested in the HPP curlers. They dismiss curlers who are not totally dedicated to the sport and/or don't have enough international experience to win right now. Far better is the Shuster method of getting Points and beating them at their own game. That requires dedication, talent and money...which has always been the recipe for success.

The playing field is not fair. Are we really just figuring that out? Come on, people...challenge yourselves more than that. Come up with a plan that improves our World standing in a changing world where nations are making curlers professionals. Nations that don't even have many curling clubs nor curlers. Make your plan fit into a budget and make it acceptable to the USOC. Now that's a serious challenge.

Back to the thread: I don't see Aileen bringing her A game with Worlds already in her back pocket. I'm proud of my picks (Erika over Cory in the Finals with Bert doing the best of the last four in)...but if I was betting a lot of money right now...dang, these kids could win this thing. Heck, they should win this thing. Seriously? Are these kids going to win this thing? Yep.

Ben Tucker

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My bad, but the website just said Blaine, USA. The Continental Cup mess is because the CCA has been given control...nuff said. If you've been following the Canadian threads, you'll see that the potential impact of the pro circuit on the Scotties and Brier is creating some heat up here.

Anyway I still stand by my original argument-US international results can be better, but the teams should be more representative and, with no disrespect to the teams that will be going to the worlds, the national championship should mean something tangible-especially since it's being netcast to curling fans everywhere.

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Let's not forget... Aileen had ONE weekend, the first week in NOVEMBER that she earned over 75% of her total OOM points for the year! Need I say more?

And if I remember correctly, last year Alison had one big points weekend last year early in the season. (BUT I could be wrong!)

One weekend in November makes a year?????

This is not US Curling...

But I don't take offense to the players. They are playing by the rules.

Do the people running the HPP have any accountability to anyone? Where we are today has had four years in the making. This is not the first year.

And I read a comment that suggested, because of the teams failure at Nationals that some of the athletes might be dropped from the program. Really? The players? You got to pick the best players you could find in America (or with American citizenship!). You felt you knew better than the players themselves who had formed a winning team (Team Spatola). You broke that team up because you knew better. And what did they get? Roth didn't win a single game against the top 5 finishing teams. But people would suggest the problem is the players? Well, it's on the HPP staff and the system they created, NOT the players.

Ok, fine, the players have to take some responsibility. But this is NOT all on them.

I will say it again... I REALLY hope Aileen wins Nationals!

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Congrats to Aileen, she's a great player and will represent us well at Worlds.

That being said, for reasons mentioned in previous posts, OOM points are a rather imperfect measure of team strength, and what is playing out on both the men's and women's side potentially can create some very counterintuitive (and likely incorrect) results. For example, Brown could defeat Sormunen twice in the playoffs, immediately before worlds, yet still be deemed the weaker team due to results Sormunen obtained in November. That seems to defy logic. (Again, those are the rules, and nothing against the Sormunen rink).

If we want to stick with the idea of sending our strongest team to Worlds, my recommendation would be to move to an ELO-based system, with event-based weighting. ELO is very sensitive to head to head results between teams in events that matter (like nationals), yet still rewards the season-long track record we would like to see in our Worlds reps. Every game counts, but games farther in the past count less.

I'd be happy to help the USCA calculate such ratings, and publish the methodology.

Mike

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Well Sormunen sure went out like a whimper. Bad news for the HPP. Hope they can get it together for the worlds. The rules allowed our national rep to be decided based on DSC which favored the eventual third place team.

I think the biggest problem is that the USCA has put all their eggs in the OOM basket. I think I'd be fine of awarding the worlds IF the team was in the top 10-15 of world OOM but relying on OOM to determine team strengths in the 30+ range seems foolhardy.

It seems a simple rule change is in order, and if there aren't ulterior motives it shouldn't be opposed. If a team finishes OOM in top 10 (or top however) globally and finishes in the page playoffs they are the worlds rep. If two or more teams meet those conditions the highest placing team will be rep to worlds. Otherwise the winner of nationals is the worlds rep.

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so the team that is going to worlds didnt even make the final. yeah, that really looks good

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I can buy that the best team in the field will sometimes finish second, since the final comes down to one game, but I find it much harder to buy that the best team in the field finishes third. This system seems sillier and sillier all the time.

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I never thought I'd say this about a US National Championship but.....MEH.

Yah, that's right, MEH.

You would find me glued to the computer/smart TV screen ever since TESN picked up the assignment....but not anymore.

I'm at ESPN3 watching the Scotties

OoM has made nationals into a sick joke. Brown and Lank just get a pat on the head, their picture in the local paper and a swift kick in the pants to get off the podium for the THIRD place team.

We're also one game away from Shuster possibly winning this. I'm personally rooting for the guy just to stick it to the USCA and USOC. Ever since Patzke's "throw then under the bus" segment at the 2010 Olympics, I've never seen the USCA in the same light.

I can't blame the OoM teams because that's the rules they were given and they did hit the circuit, but I agree with a previous post that perhaps the OoM rule can be in effect ONLY if a team breaks into the top 10-15 OoM end-of-year standings (of all WCT teams). If someone did that THEN I can believe they're top level material.

If a non OoM team(s) wins the final, DO THEY AT LEAST GET TO GO TO THE FRICKEN 2016 CONTINENTAL CUP????? If not, that's like pouring salt into the wound.

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Continental cup selection process
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...-team-selection

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Thanks for the link jcurl. Wow, that is going to make for some interesting discussions.

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Back to the main point of the thread: Gambling

I win. Again. Consolation points to IMWright and MiniMark, but I win. All of you buy me drinks at your earliest convenience.

Ben Tucker
Winner

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quote:

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Originally posted by fanofcurling
Let's not forget... Aileen had ONE weekend, the first week in NOVEMBER that she earned over 75% of her total OOM points for the year! Need I say more?

And if I remember correctly, last year Alison had one big points weekend last year early in the season. (BUT I could be wrong!)

One weekend in November makes a year?????

This is not US Curling...

But I don't take offense to the players. They are playing by the rules.

Do the people running the HPP have any accountability to anyone? Where we are today has had four years in the making. This is not the first year.

And I read a comment that suggested, because of the teams failure at Nationals that some of the athletes might be dropped from the program. Really? The players? You got to pick the best players you could find in America (or with American citizenship!). You felt you knew better than the players themselves who had formed a winning team (Team Spatola). You broke that team up because you knew better. And what did they get? Roth didn't win a single game against the top 5 finishing teams. But people would suggest the problem is the players? Well, it's on the HPP staff and the system they created, NOT the players.

Ok, fine, the players have to take some responsibility. But this is NOT all on them.

I will say it again... I REALLY hope Aileen wins Nationals!

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its nothing against aileen at all, she isnt the one who came up with this system. but she's being rewarded for one good weekend at the early of the season in a big event.

ni said this in the mens thread that she went 0-2 against the eventual winner and didnt even make the final

this is a joke

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Is Ed Lukowich still involved with US Curling?

BTW, best of luck to Aileen-the curlers didn't make the rules and deserve your support (as a Canuck my loyalties are elsewhere but I'd like to see the Americans at least get a sniff of the podium although to be honest you'll be able to get good odds).

And speaking of good odds I came very close with my Patti prediction...

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quote:

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Originally posted by jhcurl
Continental cup selection process
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...-team-selection

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quote:

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Originally posted by dbsdbs


in other words, we will send whomever we want to

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CCup selection process??? Shouldn't we all be posting, "Great predictions, Tuck. Gee, we should buy you a drink next time our paths cross"?

CCup team selection will probably get its own thread. I don't have a problem with leadership taking some time to discuss possible scenarios.

Curlers I've spoken to rave about how much they've learned by playing in it. It seems to be a great training event for a future World team. The Points leader will probably get consideration (as they should).

My hope is that team that has yet to be in the CCup will be afforded the opportunity. That might be a small step towards broadening our base. Then again, we have a Team responsibility to send a very strong contingent.

As for me (let's never forget that It Is All About Tuck), I'm considering attending. Therefore, we need to add an important consideration: Sending a team that would party with Tuck. Face and The Rejects would work. Heater seems to be pretty good Vegas Party Option. Polo might be fun. Gals might be a tougher find. We need one's that are not opposed to dancing.

Bottomline: The is an opportunity that does require thought. For those in authority to desire time and discussion and options does not seem unreasonable to me. If you are inclined to complain about a committee being formed to make the decision, complain about the makeup of the committee. Should it be a committee of Do Whatever Tuck Says To Do? Yeah, probably.

Back to the topic of the thread: Anybody notice that Alex Carlson was a beast for the entire week and particularly awesome in the Gold Medal Game? She's looking very fit and more athletic than I've ever seen before. Congrats to Team Erika Brown Tetley and thanks for making me look smart...not an easy thing to do.


Ben Tucker
You bred Ian Tetley and Erika Brown and then let the offspring play hockey? What BS is that? Buy those kids some brooms. If only they had a grandparent who could get a good deal on brooms.

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AS for the drinks, Tuck...come to the CCup and look me up and I'll be more than happy to buy you a round or seven (when I'm not volunteering for the event)

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quote:

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Originally posted by tuck
CCup selection process??? Shouldn't we all be posting, "Great predictions, Tuck. Gee, we should buy you a drink next time our paths cross"?

CCup team selection will probably get its own thread. I don't have a problem with leadership taking some time to discuss possible scenarios.

Curlers I've spoken to rave about how much they've learned by playing in it. It seems to be a great training event for a future World team. The Points leader will probably get consideration (as they should).

My hope is that team that has yet to be in the CCup will be afforded the opportunity. That might be a small step towards broadening our base. Then again, we have a Team responsibility to send a very strong contingent.

As for me (let's never forget that It Is All About Tuck), I'm considering attending. Therefore, we need to add an important consideration: Sending a team that would party with Tuck. Face and The Rejects would work. Heater seems to be pretty good Vegas Party Option. Polo might be fun. Gals might be a tougher find. We need one's that are not opposed to dancing.

Bottomline: The is an opportunity that does require thought. For those in authority to desire time and discussion and options does not seem unreasonable to me. If you are inclined to complain about a committee being formed to make the decision, complain about the makeup of the committee. Should it be a committee of Do Whatever Tuck Says To Do? Yeah, probably.

Back to the topic of the thread: Anybody notice that Alex Carlson was a beast for the entire week and particularly awesome in the Gold Medal Game? She's looking very fit and more athletic than I've ever seen before. Congrats to Team Erika Brown Tetley and thanks for making me look smart...not an easy thing to do.


Ben Tucker
You bred Ian Tetley and Erika Brown and then let the offspring play hockey? What BS is that? Buy those kids some brooms. If only they had a grandparent who could get a good deal on brooms.

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Great predictions, Tuck. Gee, I should buy you a drink next time our paths cross.

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Erica Brown - passed on the HPP (I think?)
Alex C - NOT selected to "tryout" for the HPP. (Even though she's the last woman to skip a team to medal at a world championship)
Becca F. - Rejected by the HPP
Kendal - Rejected by the HPP

John Shuster - Rejected by the HPP
Tyler G. - Dismissed from team Plys the year before... (so it appeared)
Matt H. - Rejected by the HPP
John L. - Rejected by the HPP

These teams have chemistry.

"I" think Erica's team should have publicly stated that they were disappointed that they aren't going to worlds. But they didn't because they probably think they will be funded as a HPP team next year, so they want to "behave to get the money".

Well, don't hold your breathe. You don't need to look very far over your shoulder to see what they did to Spatola/Roth and her team. They kept quiet because they thought they were getting the money as a team.

The money drives this machine. And players are willing to do almost anything to get that money.

I'll say it one last time. Go ahead and have your HPP teams. Give them all the money you can. Give them all the resources you can. But in February, let them win heads up! What are you afraid of?

I'm sure the players from the program will be evaluated after the world championships are done. And decisions will be made to keep or drop players from the program?

Question: Does the USCA Board of Directors have a mechanism in place to annually evaluate the decisions and performance of the HPP Director and his staff?

Performance evaluations are pretty standard in business. The USCA is a business, right?

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quote:

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Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
AS for the drinks, Tuck...come to the CCup and look me up and I'll be more than happy to buy you a round or seven (when I'm not volunteering for the event)

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