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02-07-22 05:27PM
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Hacker
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State of the Game - Canada

Let's hear your thoughts regarding the state of curling in Canada.

Today I see a lot of people upset about Morris and Homan falling out of medal contention. Should we be surprised? Not at all!

The rest of the world (China, Japan, USA and yes, even Italy) is in love with curling. Other countries are investing in new facilities and coaching, promoting the game and seeing strong interest. They are becoming stronger at the competitive level.

In Canada, our numbers have been dropping across the country for years and the vast majority of our facilities are 50 to 70+ year old barns that do nothing to attract new people to the sport. Our national body is keenly focused on our elite curlers, running national championships and making them profitable. There isn't much being done to actually grow the game at the club level. We have some great curlers in Canada, but every sport needs to have strong participation levels in order to generate truly elite competitive teams.

But to me, curling is a LOT more than simply generating elite teams. We must find a way to better support local curling clubs across the country. These are small non-profits run by volunteers. Some have been forced to shut down. Others are struggling to find members and to keep the doors open. They certainly can't be expected to come up with the $millions that are needed to replace their old facilities. I don't have a solution to all of this, but the state of curling in Canada should be much better than it is.

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02-07-22 06:27PM
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As a member of the Japan contingent, I can confirm at least that we love the idea of curling. People turn on their TVs in droves to watch women's curling at the Olympics, but most of them are there to see the kawaii (cute) girls, as curling is one of the few sports that athletes can do while wearing full makeup. And when COVID allows, a few hundred people will fill a curling venue to watch Loco Solare (Team Fujisawa) at the National Championships.

But attendance at the men's events are sparse. And actually participating in curling remains an extremely niche activity limited to the few towns in and around the northern island of Hokkaido that have a facility. The only place to curl within two hours of Tokyo is the Olympic arena in Karuizawa, which serves only as a base for tournaments and an extremely small contingent of locals.

So all in all, curling remains an extremely minor sport to all but a few thousand people in Japan, and the ruling body here is also struggling with ways to improve its appeal to the masses. The biggest ambassadors for curling have only managed to make themselves popular, not the sport itself.

In the end, I don't see any way to make curling "big" anywhere. It takes a large investment in time to get people up to speed enough to appreciate it as a spectator sport, and it's much easier for the average person to take up bowling to gain a similar form of exercise (and bowling itself continues to struggle to maintain business)

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02-07-22 08:10PM
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I myself think more money needs to be put in building the sport vs an event that's held every four years (and if there's any sad results, the armchair coaches will attack the players' social media . . . ). I think to keep Canadians coaching Canadians is to offer them incentives to coach said Canadian teams.

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02-07-22 08:12PM
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Re: State of the Game - Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Hacker

In Canada, our numbers have been dropping across the country for years and the vast majority of our facilities are 50 to 70+ year old barns that do nothing to attract new people to the sport. Our national body is keenly focused on our elite curlers, running national championships and making them profitable. There isn't much being done to actually grow the game at the club level. We have some great curlers in Canada, but every sport needs to have strong participation levels in order to generate truly elite competitive teams.

But to me, curling is a LOT more than simply generating elite teams. We must find a way to better support local curling clubs across the country. These are small non-profits run by volunteers. Some have been forced to shut down. Others are struggling to find members and to keep the doors open. They certainly can't be expected to come up with the $millions that are needed to replace their old facilities. I don't have a solution to all of this, but the state of curling in Canada should be much better than it is.



Yes and it's going to get worse before (if) it gets better. Not only are the facilities 50+ years old but so are most of the players. My league has 30 teams, maybe 4 of them are under 30, 10 would be over 60 the average age would probably be 50. The renters leagues at the club are also older. And there is very little diversity in any of the leagues. No longer is there a junior program. If you are a junior curler with some ability you do not play with your friends at the local club, you go to one of the 2-3 clubs that have the better curlers and get put on a team. So out of juniors will come a handful of elite teams while everyone else will have given up the game. It's the average players and hackers who support the clubs, not the elite players who show up to practice and not much else. And when the average players and hackers dwindle, so will the clubs.
I wish I had some solution to this but I don't see one. Curling is a niche sport, most of the players I curl with got their start because their parents curled and now the parents don't curl and the kids have no interest.

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02-07-22 08:34PM
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How about more Little Rocks sort of programs in schools? I know I first found out about curling in the 1994 Olympics, the teacher put on a video of some curling, from when it was demo sport some years back). Get kids on a class trip to Brier/Scotties/Slam/provincials/WTCT event etc (COVID protocols pending of course). Heck, take them to the local club and have theme throw some granite.

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02-08-22 12:50AM
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It’s fun talking about the elite teams and crying disaster if they don’t medal, but the reality is Canada is and will always be the strongest curling country depth wise. Canada’s 10th best team would demolish the 10th best team from any country. What has changed is that there’s a handful of other countries (probably more in mixed doubles) whose top teams are as good as Canada’s top teams (give or take some small differences). That’s good for elite sport. More competition is more compelling.

Now the recreational level in Canada is more troubling. There’s 20 teams in our club’s men’s league. I can count on one hand the number of players under 40 years old. Relative to other clubs, ours is pretty full with leagues. It’s still difficult financially to operate. So you have high operation costs and a membership that is heavily aging (or frankly, that has already aged). Those are big issues for which I have no solution.

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02-08-22 01:25AM
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One of the things that's been suggested is that curling clubs are renamed curling centres; it does sound more inviting.

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02-08-22 01:45AM
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I wonder what the state of the game is in, say Korea.

I found this nice drama on mixed doubles curling (English close caption available).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wCBrOILa4M

Obviously this is not reality, but if it's anything close to it, it shows quite a different culture of curling than Canada. Very young athletes, coach assembles teams and make lineup changes, cities have teams with players that they can trade around, etc. (Unfortunately it also shows that coach abusing athletes is just normal in that culture, but we don't really need to go there...)

I'm sure old school Canadians would say "That's wrong! That's not how curling is supposed to be!", etc., but it's a nice if not predictable Korean drama if nothing else.

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02-08-22 05:12AM
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The learning curve is pretty steep for adults. Sliding on ice is a difficult skill to learn, and even if people have fun trying curling on a lark, they'll quit if they aren't able to get some sort of delivery down quickly.

Also, it's a team game, and as such, the game can feel rather cliquish. Someone signing up to a club or league alone is going to feel like an outsider for a while. It's not like running, where anyone can pick it up and progress at their own rate. With curling, you're thrown into the fire, you can't slide properly, you struggle to sweep without falling over, and many people aren't excited to be awful at a team game with others watching.

If clubs want more curlers then instruction and welcoming singles need to be the focus. In fairness, many curlers are willing to donate their time to helping out newcomers. The good ones not only provide those open house sessions, but they also follow up with some sort of mentorship or opportunities for novice curlers to move past the shaky stage into something more confident and fun. Everyone I know who tries curling ends up finding it fun the first time, but then most drop out of it when they discover they are dragging down a team or unable to deliver a rock without falling over.

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02-11-22 03:41AM
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quote:
Originally posted by EPMD
The learning curve is pretty steep for adults. Sliding on ice is a difficult skill to learn, and even if people have fun trying curling on a lark, they'll quit if they aren't able to get some sort of delivery down quickly.

Also, it's a team game, and as such, the game can feel rather cliquish. Someone signing up to a club or league alone is going to feel like an outsider for a while. It's not like running, where anyone can pick it up and progress at their own rate. With curling, you're thrown into the fire, you can't slide properly, you struggle to sweep without falling over, and many people aren't excited to be awful at a team game with others watching.

If clubs want more curlers then instruction and welcoming singles need to be the focus. In fairness, many curlers are willing to donate their time to helping out newcomers. The good ones not only provide those open house sessions, but they also follow up with some sort of mentorship or opportunities for novice curlers to move past the shaky stage into something more confident and fun. Everyone I know who tries curling ends up finding it fun the first time, but then most drop out of it when they discover they are dragging down a team or unable to deliver a rock without falling over.


^ I agree - mostly.
I think the problem that most clubs have is that they try to integrate new curlers into established leagues which are well above the new curler's level of competence.
While there are a few exceptions who can integrate into established leagues rather seamlessly - because of their natural athletic ability - most new curlers would be much, much better off going into a lower league for at least a couple of years until they reach their full potential, whatever level that potential may be. Once they reach their peak, they can then get into a league which matches their level of ability.

I feel this is a much better approach than to basically force new players into the established leagues where the level is significantly higher than they can play. This, as you mention, results in the new curler feeling guilty for dragging the team down, and therefore not enjoying him/her self... and it results in the team often silently (or sometimes not so silently) resenting the new player's presence on the team. This isn't beneficial to anyone, or to the club.

The problem, I feel, lies with the dichotomy of curling being a competitive sport and a social activity. Those who are there more for the social element will be out of place on a competitive team - and vice versa. It's a nice thought to believe that everyone can integrate everywhere and live happily ever after - but it's not a practical reality.
It's like in tennis - the couple that plays mixed doubles and spends 45 minutes of their hour on court up at the net chatting with their opponents has no place in a competitive league or tournament.

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02-11-22 10:08AM
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Re: State of the Game - Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Hacker
Let's hear your thoughts regarding the state of curling in Canada.

Today I see a lot of people upset about Morris and Homan falling out of medal contention. Should we be surprised? Not at all!

The rest of the world (China, Japan, USA and yes, even Italy) is in love with curling. Other countries are investing in new facilities and coaching, promoting the game and seeing strong interest. They are becoming stronger at the competitive level.

In Canada, our numbers have been dropping across the country for years and the vast majority of our facilities are 50 to 70+ year old barns that do nothing to attract new people to the sport. Our national body is keenly focused on our elite curlers, running national championships and making them profitable. There isn't much being done to actually grow the game at the club level. We have some great curlers in Canada, but every sport needs to have strong participation levels in order to generate truly elite competitive teams.

But to me, curling is a LOT more than simply generating elite teams. We must find a way to better support local curling clubs across the country. These are small non-profits run by volunteers. Some have been forced to shut down. Others are struggling to find members and to keep the doors open. They certainly can't be expected to come up with the $millions that are needed to replace their old facilities. I don't have a solution to all of this, but the state of curling in Canada should be much better than it is.



There's two different discussions here, the first being the Business of Curling and the second being the elite competition level of the sport.

From a clubs perspective, this is a problem that goes back to the 1980s and 90s where were lost a generation of recreational players due a number of factors, many of which are not curling's fault one bit.

From 1992 to 2010, sports participation among Canadian 15 years and older dropped by 45% down to 26%, a significant drop in people who can choose curling as an option.
https://publications.gc.ca/collecti...-1-2012-eng.pdf

The Urban vs. Rural shift as a higher percentage of the population moves into populated centers sees the local grocery store, hardware store and even the curling club disappear in these smaller centres.
https://www.macrotrends.net/countri...rban-population

Curling was the cornerstone in the community and for the longest time, many facilities just opened the doors and expected people to keep showing up, because it was what always worked. And during the 90s especially when life got busier and more pressures were put onto work productivity, there became less and less time for personal recreation. Specialization of youth sports also left curling in the dark where there is no tiered youth program in the program outside club directed activities.

It comes down to clubs getting onto the marketing bandwagon and running themselves like a business. There are many very successful curling clubs that reach into the community and market themselves and when they do this, they're able to upgrade their facilities and do the work needed to build the sport.

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02-11-22 10:23AM
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Non-Canadian checking in, I think the issue at least in part is that a lot of the European and Asian teams are full time paid professionals. It’s pretty tough for the Canadians to compete with teams that are able to practice curling and work in the gym every single day as their job.


Here in GB, we select the Olympic team pretty early on in the cycle and fund them to quit their job and curl full time. Then we send this team to the world and European championships to get experience competing at the top level.


Pretty tricky for the Canadian government to do this because you’ve got a whole bunch of great teams of nearly equal talent. Case in point, Brad Gushue won the gold medal at Turin 2016 and is only just back for his second chance now sixteen years on. Why? Because Kevin Martin, Brad Jacobs and Kevin Koe’s teams respectively beat them in Olympic trials.


This situation is unheard of among most other countries. Anyone who wins an Olympic gold would be parachuted straight into every international competition for the next four years before trying to defend their Olympic title.

I’m not saying there’s anything inherently wrong with the more wholesome Canadian system which theoretically allows any grassroots curler to play their way right up to the world championships and Olympics, but at the same time it’s hard to expect automatic medals much less automatic golds for Canadian teams who are coming up against multiple teams who eat, sleep and breathe curling.

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02-11-22 11:51AM
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Re: Re: State of the Game - Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Gerry


It comes down to clubs getting onto the marketing bandwagon and running themselves like a business. There are many very successful curling clubs that reach into the community and market themselves and when they do this, they're able to upgrade their facilities and do the work needed to build the sport.



This is overly simplistic, pull up your socks advice. Every club has successful people from the business world so If it was as simple as "getting onto the marketing bandwagon and running themselves like a business" they would all be doing it and thriving. They aren't.
In Wpg there are a few clubs who are successful, most are just getting by but as membership dwindles, the margins get thinner. The downtown clubs have all but disappeared, the days of work, go eat at the club or stay downtown and curl are long gone. People go home after work and aren't going to drive back so the more successful clubs are the ones that were built in the suburbs. They aren't on the marketing bandwagon or running themselves like a business better than the other clubs, they have location location location.
The curling world needs to focus on getting some (any) diversity or the slide will continue.

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02-11-22 12:35PM
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quote:
Originally posted by MeaghanEdwards
How about more Little Rocks sort of programs in schools? I know I first found out about curling in the 1994 Olympics, the teacher put on a video of some curling, from when it was demo sport some years back). Get kids on a class trip to Brier/Scotties/Slam/provincials/WTCT event etc (COVID protocols pending of course). Heck, take them to the local club and have theme throw some granite.


Taking kids to a curling club costs money. Our club used to give ice time to high school leagues for free. Not anymore.

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02-11-22 12:47PM
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Here in GB, we select the Olympic team pretty early on in the cycle and fund them to quit their job and curl full time.

It's sort of an "all eggs in one basket" mentality. If you were to run a tourneyment with the top 10 teams from Canada vs top 10 from other countries the depth of field would show. Other countries don't have the talent base Canada does.

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02-11-22 12:57PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Here in GB, we select the Olympic team pretty early on in the cycle and fund them to quit their job and curl full time.

It's sort of an "all eggs in one basket" mentality. If you were to run a tourneyment with the top 10 teams from Canada vs top 10 from other countries the depth of field would show. Other countries don't have the talent base Canada does.



Yes, that's why the hand wringing about the elite level game here in Canada is ongoing. Right now the names are Edin, Mouat, Hasselborg, Tirizoni. Years back it was Murdoch, Norberg, Lindholm, Ulsrud. Before that Gustaffsson, Nordby, Ramsfjell. There will always be a handful of top talent that other countries send to the worlds. And sometimes Canada will have stretches where they struggle to medal. And when that happens, the people running things start to think they must do something. Right now there is a push to make the winner of the Canada Cup the rep at the worlds because, the argument goes, the CCup is the top teams. This completely ignores the fact that the Brier and Scotties winner will always be one of those top teams. We are still sending a top team to the world's, sometimes they don't win but that doesn't mean you have to change things and fund a very few teams more or have a different playoff setup (but they will change it because that's how beauracracies/power structures work, Curl Canada will feel they need to be doing something so they will).

Last edited by hogged again on 02-11-22 at 01:00PM

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02-11-22 01:38PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Here in GB, we select the Olympic team pretty early on in the cycle and fund them to quit their job and curl full time.

It's sort of an "all eggs in one basket" mentality. If you were to run a tourneyment with the top 10 teams from Canada vs top 10 from other countries the depth of field would show. Other countries don't have the talent base Canada does.

Well yeah but depth doesn’t matter when it comes to winning world championships, does it?

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02-11-22 02:11PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hogged again
There will always be a handful of top talent that other countries send to the worlds.

"Send" implies selection, which isn't always the case. Up until the Sophie Jackson controversy, whoever wins Scotland goes to World. Yes, they use selection process now, but all the years before, it's you-win-you-go.

I don't think selection is common in other countries. In fact, I think we're seeing more and more Best of X matches being used by other countries.

Korea had a crazy 3-legged competition to select the national team in 2021. Only 2-legged if the same team wins both.

USA is Best of 3 finals, but you must also meet a minimum ranking requirement. So it's not guaranteed you-win-you-go, but it's not selection either.

Russia has had numerous Best of 7 epic matches.

If Canadian trial finals are Best of 3, I think we'd be watching Fleury instead of Jones, for better or for worse.

Last edited by curlingclips on 02-11-22 at 02:20PM

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02-11-22 04:01PM
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It’s not necessarily just selection, but also heavily funding one team and making the finals “best of X” to reduce the variance largely rigs the competition to ensure that one particular team wins.

Can you blame them?

In the last 10 world championships:

Scotland w/ Muirhead: 43-25 record in 6 round robins, 1 gold medal, 1 bronze medal and 1 fourth place.

Scotland without Muirhead: 15-31 record in 4 round robins, 0 playoff appearances.



It is very clear that Scotland play better when Eve Muirhead is in the team, so why shouldn’t they just select her?

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02-11-22 05:37PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dangermouse

Can you blame them?

In the last 10 world championships:

Scotland w/ Muirhead: 43-25 record in 6 round robins, 1 gold medal, 1 bronze medal and 1 fourth place.

Scotland without Muirhead: 15-31 record in 4 round robins, 0 playoff appearances.



It is very clear that Scotland play better when Eve Muirhead is in the team, so why shouldn’t they just select her?



The probem is how long do you select her for? At some point she will be done and then what? You've driven other players who might be good reps out of the game because you have focussed on one player/team and they decided well, even if we beat Eve she is going to get picked so why bother?

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02-11-22 05:58PM
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Dangermouse
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Then they’ll start training up the next team from the juniors, exactly what we did when we moved from Rhona Martin to Eve Muirhead. Other nations don’t have strength in depth like Canada so we can’t risk sending a poor team to the worlds just because they had a good week at the Scottish champs

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12-04-22 03:00AM
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Re: Re: Re: State of the Game - Canada

quote:
Originally posted by hogged again

The curling world needs to focus on getting some (any) diversity or the slide will continue.



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Very interesting thread.

The purpose of the world curling championship is:

a) As a reward for winning your national championships. Every curler should have the same chance of this.
b) As a place to jostle for Olympic funding, so open competition must not interfere with the off-ice experts’ decisions on how to optimise for the elite over the merely excellent.
c) A stepping stone to the ultimate accolade, selection for the Olympics, where nothing less than national honour is at stake.

A long time ago when I entered about 20 Scottish men’s championship in a row, the answer was a). Never better than fifth, thanks for asking. When you came back from the world’s, you would get on with your proper job. Probably farmer.

I still vote for a) but clearly b) and c) have taken over.
As others have noted, if it was really a contest to see who is the best curling nation, ten teams a side, we would get the correct answer. Trouble is it would take a month to play, and the answer would always be Canada.

Dangermouse says: ‘so we can’t risk sending a poor team to the worlds just because they had a good week at the Scottish champs’

Why not?

So, the point of winning the Scottish Championships is what exactly?

Who is this ‘we’ you speak of?

Whose game is it?

Why should the World Championship be anything more than a reward for being national champion?

How could we allow anyone other than the winner of an open competition to represent our sport?

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