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02-09-16 07:28PM
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CURLER1
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Curlers / Teams dwindling

due to so called "super teams", numbers for provincials are way down.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2016/02/...o-historic-lows

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02-09-16 07:53PM
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this is something we've been aware of for a while now. the olympics and grand slams are great things but there's a big downside to them too and this is it

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02-10-16 01:56AM
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Good article - thanks for the link.
I think this applies to most provinces, not just Alberta.

From the article:
Curling is the last remaining sport where the very best are thrown into the same bin as those that are in fact amateur and recreational competitors. I believe it is a combination that no longer works and is the reason for the continuing decline in the number of teams entering provincial playdowns.

There is a need to develop a new system where the very best super teams compete for the national title and the right to represent Canada at Worlds. A separate competition needs to be developed for the others below super-team status.

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02-10-16 09:13AM
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Pretty sure Hansen said at some point we wanted the Canada Cup winner to go to the world's....that would leave the Brier/Scotties open to others I guess. It would also allow the "pro" teams to play Slams in January and February since they wouldn't be in playdowns. Who knows how this will all end...

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02-10-16 12:40PM
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I'm not sure that there is a causal link between the "super teams" and dwindling numbers - it's not just the Brier playdowns that are suffering - most all competitive events and bonspiels are (at least in Southern Ontario). Ontario has 2nd and 3rd tier provincial events - where it's not at all uncommon to have 2-4 teams playing for two spots in zones.

There is a bigger question to be asked about how to grow participation in provincial curling events. If the attitude is "can't win, don't try" for the Brier, that doesn't explain poor turn-outs for the next tier of provincial championships. My guess is that there are other factors at play.

The world of US olympic marathon trials seems to remain healthy - 217 male entries, 95% of them amateurs with no chance at qualifying. Maybe curlers just need a change of perspective?

http://fittish.deadspin.com/olympic...-dar-1755043759

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02-11-16 05:30AM
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I believe that curling is in the relatively early stages of the process of adapting to the growing differences between the 'professional curlers' and the club curlers. Up until even 5 or 6 years ago, club curlers could more easily identify with the curlers we saw on TV... they were one of us - albeit a bit better and more consistent than us. But now, the difference between 'them' and 'us' is significantly greater. And the gap is growing.

Not only are these 'professional curlers' improving (while us club curlers are remaining relatively stagnant in terms of the quality of our curling), but there are other glaring differences between 'them' and 'us' which were not nearly as noticeable 10 years ago... the sponsorships they get - it seems that each team has a new jacket for each competition... they are getting more and more fit physically - the Randy Ferbeys of curling would not be able to keep up with today's curlers physically (even as a Skip)... as the television coverage increases, the 'star' factor grows - there is more curling on TV now, making the 'professional curlers' more and more 'famous'... Along with this added TV exposure, the professional game is much more 'flashy' now than it was in the past. Of course, everything is more 'flashy' now than in the past (because we exist in a culture which values style over substance) - but this is just one more element which separates 'them' from 'us'... the equipment is another thing - the 'professional curlers' are almost always using the latest equipment available (because of their sponsorships) - and new equipment is coming out much more rapidly than ever before - it's difficult for the club curler to keep up with all of this new equipment without going into debt...

All of these elements - and more - create a large (and growing) gap between 'us' and 'them' - a gap which was not nearly as large in the past. And, while this gap between the amateur/recreational athlete and the professional exists in virtually every sport, it is still something which is new to us in curling. And so it's going to take some time to adapt. And during the period of adapting, some curlers are going to be turned off by the realization that he/she will never attain the levels of the 'professional curlers' - and that, I believe, is making some people quit the game. Not because there is a gap between 'us' and them' so much as because the gap is now much greater and more noticeable than ever before. And that frustrates some people and turns them off of curling.

I believe this is a temporary circumstance, though, and that, at some point within the next decade, the number of club curlers will rebound as people come to accept the gap between 'us' and 'them', as they do with other sports.

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02-11-16 09:34AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Toronto_curler
I'm not sure that there is a causal link between the "super teams" and dwindling numbers - it's not just the Brier playdowns that are suffering - most all competitive events and bonspiels are (at least in Southern Ontario). Ontario has 2nd and 3rd tier provincial events - where it's not at all uncommon to have 2-4 teams playing for two spots in zones.

There is a bigger question to be asked about how to grow participation in provincial curling events. If the attitude is "can't win, don't try" for the Brier, that doesn't explain poor turn-outs for the next tier of provincial championships. My guess is that there are other factors at play.

The world of US olympic marathon trials seems to remain healthy - 217 male entries, 95% of them amateurs with no chance at qualifying. Maybe curlers just need a change of perspective?

http://fittish.deadspin.com/olympic...-dar-1755043759


It's not just the second & third tier events, bonspiel entries are dropping too. What used to be a full bonspiel is now down to one draw. Bonspiels used to be a fun way of introducing new curlers to competition, now teams are hesitant to bring newbies for fear of being wiped off the board.

If there are no entries for some of the second or third tier events, then they should be dropped. The OCA would save some $$$. If the curlers squawk, then that's their problem - more should have entered.

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02-11-16 09:56AM
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From what ranks will this "rebound" come from? Former curlers coming back to the sport? Juniors aging into adults? New curlers who were never affected by the "us and them" factor you claim?

Every Canadian curler I have stacked brooms with in the last ten years say that there is an aging out occurring in Canada. Clubs are closing, participation is falling, kids have too many other interests and curling is not as exciting as hockey and winter "X" game sports. Even their kids who curled as juniors are not returning as adults to the sport at the percentages they used to.

This being said Canada will still have more curlers than the rest of the world for decades to come, but the sport has matured and is due for a decline. How fast this decline occurs depends how it is managed and marketing to bring people in, or back, to curling. The current negative issues such as relegation and "broomgate" are certainly not helping draw anyone in for the "rebound". It is unfortunate because all curling needs Canada to be strong.

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02-11-16 10:29AM
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The funny thing is...Canada may be having problems, but the USCA is growing rapidly (maybe too rapidly...).

Broomgate and Relegation and the US HPP and all that really only affect the top 5% of curlers...the rest of us will never *actually* be impacted by it, beyond having reasons to gripe that our preferred elite team is getting screwed by (insert thing here).

The average club curler doesn't know how to use a broom well enough to affect a shot's path unusually if you issued them with a hair dryer and personal zamboni (myself included). We may have read the theory, and we may have a broom that has the fabric, but damned if we know what to do with it.

There needs to be a careful eye given to maintaining the fun and excitement for the casual league level curler. The guy who *might* *maybe* try a playdown someday, but only so he can say he was there and got his clock cleaned by the best.

Perhaps it's time to consider spinning "Professional" curling off to it's own separate org, similar to how golf, basketball, skiing, auto racing, and just about anything else is handled...it's impossible for one board to simultaneously care about the needs of the 5% and the needs of the 95%.

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02-11-16 11:18AM
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
I believe that curling is in the relatively early stages of the process of adapting to the growing differences between the 'professional curlers' and the club curlers. Up until even 5 or 6 years ago, club curlers could more easily identify with the curlers we saw on TV... they were one of us - albeit a bit better and more consistent than us. But now, the difference between 'them' and 'us' is significantly greater. And the gap is growing.

Not only are these 'professional curlers' improving (while us club curlers are remaining relatively stagnant in terms of the quality of our curling), but there are other glaring differences between 'them' and 'us' which were not nearly as noticeable 10 years ago... the sponsorships they get - it seems that each team has a new jacket for each competition... they are getting more and more fit physically - the Randy Ferbeys of curling would not be able to keep up with today's curlers physically (even as a Skip)... as the television coverage increases, the 'star' factor grows - there is more curling on TV now, making the 'professional curlers' more and more 'famous'... Along with this added TV exposure, the professional game is much more 'flashy' now than it was in the past. Of course, everything is more 'flashy' now than in the past (because we exist in a culture which values style over substance) - but this is just one more element which separates 'them' from 'us'... the equipment is another thing - the 'professional curlers' are almost always using the latest equipment available (because of their sponsorships) - and new equipment is coming out much more rapidly than ever before - it's difficult for the club curler to keep up with all of this new equipment without going into debt...

All of these elements - and more - create a large (and growing) gap between 'us' and 'them' - a gap which was not nearly as large in the past. And, while this gap between the amateur/recreational athlete and the professional exists in virtually every sport, it is still something which is new to us in curling. And so it's going to take some time to adapt. And during the period of adapting, some curlers are going to be turned off by the realization that he/she will never attain the levels of the 'professional curlers' - and that, I believe, is making some people quit the game. Not because there is a gap between 'us' and them' so much as because the gap is now much greater and more noticeable than ever before. And that frustrates some people and turns them off of curling.

I believe this is a temporary circumstance, though, and that, at some point within the next decade, the number of club curlers will rebound as people come to accept the gap between 'us' and 'them', as they do with other sports.



Agreed.

Not only that, I think that the "professional" game and the "star factor" will help to get the next generation of curlers out onto the ice, making the club curlers of tomorrow. Plain and simple, it's much more appealing to kids than it was in the past.

You want curling to rebound, participation numbers to go up? Get kids interested in playing. The fact of the matter is that kids don't want to play a sport they perceive as boring or an "old person's" game.

quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
The funny thing is...Canada may be having problems, but the USCA is growing rapidly (maybe too rapidly...).

Broomgate and Relegation and the US HPP and all that really only affect the top 5% of curlers...the rest of us will never *actually* be impacted by it, beyond having reasons to gripe that our preferred elite team is getting screwed by (insert thing here).

The average club curler doesn't know how to use a broom well enough to affect a shot's path unusually if you issued them with a hair dryer and personal zamboni (myself included). We may have read the theory, and we may have a broom that has the fabric, but damned if we know what to do with it.

There needs to be a careful eye given to maintaining the fun and excitement for the casual league level curler. The guy who *might* *maybe* try a playdown someday, but only so he can say he was there and got his clock cleaned by the best.

Perhaps it's time to consider spinning "Professional" curling off to it's own separate org, similar to how golf, basketball, skiing, auto racing, and just about anything else is handled...it's impossible for one board to simultaneously care about the needs of the 5% and the needs of the 95%.



Couldn't agree more.

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02-11-16 08:53PM
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This might not be PC

I think another factor that is hurting curling is that as Jon Stewart said one night referring to the Winter Olympics " it is the only event where all the participants are the same colour as the surface they play on" not quite true but close. If curling is to grow in Canada, something has to be done to get new cabadians into the sport. This is just not happening.

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02-12-16 01:54AM
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quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
From what ranks will this "rebound" come from? Former curlers coming back to the sport? Juniors aging into adults? New curlers who were never affected by the "us and them" factor you claim?

^ Mostly #1 and #3, I believe.

quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
Every Canadian curler I have stacked brooms with in the last ten years say that there is an aging out occurring in Canada. Clubs are closing, participation is falling, kids have too many other interests and curling is not as exciting as hockey and winter "X" game sports. Even their kids who curled as juniors are not returning as adults to the sport at the percentages they used to.

^ I agree. There is no question that curling participation is in decline largely because older curlers are 'retiring' from the game and not being replaced by younger curlers. Older players 'retire' from every sport - and so that's not the problem, obviously. The problem lies in not attracting enough new curlers to replace them.

The entire foundation of curling is undergoing a significant change presently - it is essentially transforming from a friendly pastime to a professional sport. Once that transition is complete, the attention and flashiness and skill of curling as a professional sport will attract people to it - as occurs with other sports. But before that can happen, we'll continue to lose curlers - not only as they become too old to play, but also as others become disillusioned that they will never be able to compete with the elite level.

Until relatively recently, the 'elite level' curlers were people who would be regular members of your club, and just be a little better and/or a little more consistent, than you. They would get basically one week per year in the spotlight - at the Brier and Scotties - and the rest of the year, they were just regular Joes and Janes at the local club. That is not the case anymore - the elite level curlers are better than ever before, and they get far more than just the one week in the spotlight, as TV and media attention has grown incredibly. And curlers - and curling as a whole - are in the process of adapting to this change.

quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
This being said Canada will still have more curlers than the rest of the world for decades to come, but the sport has matured and is due for a decline. How fast this decline occurs depends how it is managed and marketing to bring people in, or back, to curling. The current negative issues such as relegation and "broomgate" are certainly not helping draw anyone in for the "rebound". It is unfortunate because all curling needs Canada to be strong.

I wrote that I believe a rebound will occur within the next 10 years - certainly not right away. We will lose more curlers than we gain probably for at least the next 5 years. Then maybe break even for 2 or 3 years, and then rebound after that, when people become accustomed to viewing curling in the same way we view other sports - as 'us' and 'them'; as the 'elite' curlers and the club curlers being in hugely different categories. It's difficult to accept now in curling, because it's the first time that there has been such a large gap between 'us' and 'them'. Club curlers (and potential club curlers who have been interested in and intrigued by the game for a few years) are resenting the idea that they will never attain the level of the players we see on TV; that the difference is just too great now. That takes some adjusting to - and I believe that adjustment will happen over the next 10 years or so.

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02-12-16 07:43AM
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We should also mention that it's more difficult to get kids involved in things today, due to the allure of technology, 'social media', and the internet in general. Why would kids take up curling in anonymity when they can be 'popular' and even 'famous' on social media, youtube, etc.?

Here's a Newfoundland perspective on the problem of declining participation in curling (I found this article by accident, actually) - Heather Strong mentions the growing gap between the elite players and the rest of us as being the main reason for the problem...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfo...power-1.3444234

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02-12-16 09:06AM
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I wrote that I believe a rebound will occur within the next 10 years - certainly not right away. We will lose more curlers than we gain probably for at least the next 5 years. Then maybe break even for 2 or 3 years, and then rebound after that, when people become accustomed to viewing curling in the same way we view other sports - as 'us' and 'them'; as the 'elite' curlers and the club curlers being in hugely different categories. It's difficult to accept now in curling, because it's the first time that there has been such a large gap between 'us' and 'them'. Club curlers (and potential club curlers who have been interested in and intrigued by the game for a few years) are resenting the idea that they will never attain the level of the players we see on TV; that the difference is just too great now. That takes some adjusting to - and I believe that adjustment will happen over the next 10 years or so. [/B][/QUOTE]

I certainly hope you are right, as I said we need a strong Canada for the entire curling world. Otherwise we will be paying $800 for a pair of shoes!

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02-12-16 09:15AM
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
We should also mention that it's more difficult to get kids involved in things today, due to the allure of technology, 'social media', and the internet in general. Why would kids take up curling in anonymity when they can be 'popular' and even 'famous' on social media, youtube, etc.?

Here's a Newfoundland perspective on the problem of declining participation in curling (I found this article by accident, actually) - Heather Strong mentions the growing gap between the elite players and the rest of us as being the main reason for the problem...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfo...power-1.3444234



From the article:

"A tier two championship, called the Travelers, has just grown tremendously in stature. (It was previously known as The Dominion.) That event is open to teams who don't compete at the Tankard or Scotties, or the provincial juniors or seniors. Or you have to be away from those competitions for four years, not including the current one."

How is Brad Jacobs competing in the N.O. Travelers this week?

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02-12-16 10:30AM
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quote:
Originally posted by biterbar


From the article:

"A tier two championship, called the Travelers, has just grown tremendously in stature. (It was previously known as The Dominion.) That event is open to teams who don't compete at the Tankard or Scotties, or the provincial juniors or seniors. Or you have to be away from those competitions for four years, not including the current one."

How is Brad Jacobs competing in the N.O. Travelers this week?



They're the sponsor of the NO Provincials as well as the title sponsor for the other event.

If I'm not mistaken, the Traveler's is the catchall name for what would otherwise be known as the Canadian Club Championship...or am I thinking of something else?

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02-12-16 10:46AM
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Article in March (#Broomgate Brier) issue

Interesting timing of Jonesy's column, given that he also writes for The Curling News *and* given that "milo" of this very forum board has written on this same subject in the upcoming March issue of The Curling News.

Milo's column goes deeper, into national (Canadian) numbers and includes women as well. He also pontificates in a very interesting fashion about what this all might mean.

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02-13-16 02:29AM
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On The Nose
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608

quote:
Originally posted by Phil_D


They're the sponsor of the NO Provincials as well as the title sponsor for the other event.

If I'm not mistaken, the Traveler's is the catchall name for what would otherwise be known as the Canadian Club Championship...or am I thinking of something else?


Yes, the 'Travelers' is the name most use for what is essentially the Championships of club curling in Canada. Each club is permitted one all male and one all female team (these teams must play together in their club championship league all season), and these club representatives play regional playdowns, then provincial playdowns, then the National Championship. It's a similar formula as is used to determine the Brier and Scotties teams.

The 'Travelers' seems to be a really good idea - I've heard only positive comments about it.

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