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maybo
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Stouffville ON
Posts: 94

quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
What was the GIMLI fiasco?


Google is your friend! 😆 Bob Weeks' archives will show you the way with a pretty thorough column that outlines the whole controversy. Sorry, I don't have the link.

Kudos to the Homan team for as dominating a performance at the worlds as I can remember. Brilliant play all week.

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Old Post 03-27-17 02:18AM
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albetts
Drawmaster

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 825

quote:
Originally posted by maybo


Google is your friend! 😆 Bob Weeks' archives will show you the way with a pretty thorough column that outlines the whole controversy. Sorry, I don't have the link.

Kudos to the Homan team for as dominating a performance at the worlds as I can remember. Brilliant play all week.



Here's the link. This happened nine years ago and this incident should be overwith by now. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. In any case, Jones, although I'm not a fan, has certainly come a long way since then.

http://bobweeksoncurling.blogspot.c...e-splainin.html

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Old Post 03-27-17 08:18AM
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2028

quote:
Originally posted by albetts


Here's the link. This happened nine years ago and this incident should be overwith by now. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. In any case, Jones, although I'm not a fan, has certainly come a long way since then.

http://bobweeksoncurling.blogspot.c...e-splainin.html



She's come a long way because her current vice is nicer. Curlers have long memories, these are people that remember shots from 50 years ago.

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Old Post 03-27-17 10:07AM
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Deliverer
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 85

Before the emergence of Homan & Co. in 2013 the 4 best

women's teams in the world were skipped by Norberg,

Gustafson, Schmirler and Colleen Jones, in that order.


I have been fortunate to have watched each of these four

in their prime. Although Homan & Co. have not yet peaked,

there is no doubt in my mind that this team will be

considered the best ever in due course, if not now.


In any case, in a 5 game series with any of the above-

mentioned, I believe Homan would win a minimum of 3 games,

at the very worst.


( Against Jenny? I suspect Rachel would flatout win 4 of 5. )

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Old Post 03-27-17 10:49AM
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Three
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 250

quote:
Originally posted by Deliverer
Before the emergence of Homan & Co. in 2013 the 4 best

women's teams in the world were skipped by Norberg,

Gustafson, Schmirler and Colleen Jones, in that order.


I have been fortunate to have watched each of these four

in their prime. Although Homan & Co. have not yet peaked,

there is no doubt in my mind that this team will be

considered the best ever in due course, if not now.


In any case, in a 5 game series with any of the above-

mentioned, I believe Homan would win a minimum of 3 games,

at the very worst.


( Against Jenny? I suspect Rachel would flatout win 4 of 5. )



Bang on. It is hard to compare teams of different eras but I think Deliverer nailed it here.

If Team Homan sticks together for another 10 years their list of accomplishments will be ridiculous.

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Old Post 03-27-17 12:37PM
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albetts
Drawmaster

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 825

quote:
Originally posted by curlerbroad


She's come a long way because her current vice is nicer. Curlers have long memories, these are people that remember shots from 50 years ago.



I didn't mention her vice because that was not the point of the article nor was my posting.

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Old Post 03-27-17 03:06PM
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On The Nose
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 357

quote:
Originally posted by curlerbroad


She's come a long way because her current vice is nicer. Curlers have long memories, these are people that remember shots from 50 years ago.


'Cathy O.' is one of the most universally liked and respected curlers of the past 15 years - still today. She comes in and spares for injured/missing curlers on many teams. If people did not like and respect her - and appreciate her curling abilities - she would not be asked to spare as often as she is asked.

Nothing against Kaitlyn, but I doubt that she'll ever achieve that level of respect. Few do.

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Old Post 03-28-17 04:29AM
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albetts
Drawmaster

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 825

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

'Cathy O.' is one of the most universally liked and respected curlers of the past 15 years - still today. She comes in and spares for injured/missing curlers on many teams. If people did not like and respect her - and appreciate her curling abilities - she would not be asked to spare as often as she is asked.

Nothing against Kaitlyn, but I doubt that she'll ever achieve that level of respect. Few do.



Where's that damn like button.

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Old Post 03-28-17 08:43AM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10875

Indeed, Cathy O is one of the most revered and respected curlers in the game. Even at 47/48 she's putting in remarkable performances as a spare, super-sup on 1-800-MISSING

My analysis of her extraction from one of the greatest teams in the game (a huge shock to Cathy O, to be sure) is due to her seniority and past success as a Canadian and world champion w/ Connie Laliberte she had developed a certain level of confidence and assertiveness. Once that assertiveness started clashing with one of the most assertive and successful skips in Manitoba/Canadian history (JJ) it upset the applecart.

Jones wanted a team that was dominatingly offensive - COC wanted to be more defensive and try to protect their rear flank from other team's assaults. It was Jones team - she consulted her tremendous front end (one that she hasn't changed in nearly 8 years). At the end of the day, Jones cast her gaze on young Kaitlyn Lawes (a most decorated junior curler) and the rest is history. Cathy O was handed her outright relese, hell broke loose for a few weeks - Bob Weeks would say "Years" and Kaitlyn helped drive Team Jones to an Olympic Gold Medal as a 23 year old vice.

Some truths need to be told:

1. Kaitlyn technically is far superior to Cathy O.
2. Lawes percentages are generally equal or better than COC
3. Lawes is not nearly as assertive as COC. She defers to Jennifer Jones most of the time.
4. The team seems to operate more smoothly and is far more fan friendly than ever.

To be fair to the Flame Monkeys who will no doubt peruse this missive cuz they've got nothing better to do - Lawes did not win Olympic gold for Jones. Honestly she was pretty shaky at times - missing key shots that Cathy O probably would have made - and making blunders on the odd line call and weight judgement. Jones won Olympic gold due to one player - JENNIFER JONES herself. It was one of the finest performances ever turned in by a skip as Jones seemed to make every shot known to man - and then some. Even when she & Lawes fed Eve Muirhead a home-run in the semi-final (remember Eve's fantastic triple & roll?) Jones calmly drew the pin to advance to the golden game. . . . . if she was 5 inches heavier or 5 inches lighter she DOESN'T EVEN MEDAL.

Nowadays, Jones has had two children and a fairly new marriage to Brent Lainger - she's moved residence outside of Winnipeg, rarely practices with her team and is showing clear indications of deterioration. She had a nice run at last year's STOH but meekly bowed out two straight in the playoffs. This year's Manitoba championships were probably her lowest point in over a decade - JJ stubbornly refused to adjust to poor ice conditions and got herself slaughtered in the semi-finals by an elderly doe. Even if she had been able to pass into the final - she was no match for the powerful Englot squad - and Michelle Englot in particular.

Barring an upgrade in percentages, an overnight change in attitude to ice conditions Jones may be 2nd or 3rd favourite at the roar - but in reality she'll finish no better than mid-pack as she closes out her fabulous curling career.

The only way Jones continues is if she manages to upset Englot, Einarson, etc. to win another Manitoba title - and then enters a Homan-Free STOH. The only other detail about JJ's team is where Kaitlyn Lawes ends up. So much speculation - most of it centering on her vicing for someone like Val Sweeting - or even T Fleury. Another bombshell would be Englot having one more run with her great group this year - and then at 55 handing the reins over to Lawes. The only call to arms is while Lawes is obviously technically superior to Englot - M Englot makes a ton of shots and can play defense as well as anyone in the game. That would be new waters for Lawes to chart.

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Old Post 03-28-17 09:10AM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10875

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

'Cathy O.' is one of the most universally liked and respected curlers of the past 15 years - still today. She comes in and spares for injured/missing curlers on many teams. If people did not like and respect her - and appreciate her curling abilities - she would not be asked to spare as often as she is asked.

Nothing against Kaitlyn, but I doubt that she'll ever achieve that level of respect. Few do.



Are you kidding me? Kaitlyn Lawes is as revered a curler as any front end or 3rd players in the last 30 years.

When it comes to curler recognition in this country there are 3 female curlers who come to mind for immediate recognition of not only the avid folks like us but the casual fans who could take curling whenever nothing else is on TV.

Jones, Homan & K Lawes.

After this year's worlds - where TV coverage wasn't exactly prime-time or focused you might have to add Joanne Courtney and Emma Miskew to the list. Courtney quickly became a media darling and Emma has been a tremendous player and personality for many years.

In her short period w/ Jones Kaitlyn has amassed the Triple Crown - Olympic Gold, Scotties GOld and World Silver. She may never get World gold now that Jones game has receded but whats stopping her from boarding another vessel and going back. Her interviews, generous donation of time and her well above average looks have given her platforms outside game broadcasts (ie commercials)

Cathy O. has had her day - its remarkable she's still out there competing at 47/48 - she was a top 3rd for Connie Laliberte - then helped Jones launch her amazing career. Although I admit the majority of casual curling fans took her side when she was cut from Team JJ, that gave her a ton of publicity which actually helped her public profile as a well-liked and publically wronged competitor.

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Old Post 03-28-17 09:21AM
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guido
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 857

quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


Are you kidding me? Kaitlyn Lawes is as revered a curler as any front end or 3rd players in the last 30 years.





WRONG!!!

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Old Post 03-28-17 12:08PM
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Stoner
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 618

Pretty amazing that Paetz burst onto the scene 3 years ago shocking everyone winning the Worlds, since then she hasn't done much and was very disappointing this time.

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Old Post 03-29-17 03:05AM
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On The Nose
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 357

quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


Are you kidding me? Kaitlyn Lawes is as revered a curler as any front end or 3rd players in the last 30 years.

When it comes to curler recognition in this country there are 3 female curlers who come to mind for immediate recognition of not only the avid folks like us but the casual fans who could take curling whenever nothing else is on TV.
Jones, Homan & K Lawes.


No, I'm not kidding you or anyone else.
Kaitlyn is still a kid. She has virtually no track record at the elite level. She's only been in the elite women's field for 4 or 5 years. To claim that she has amassed anywhere near the respect that Cathy O. has is simply absurd.

Again, this is not at all a knock of Kaitlyn. She could become extremely well respected eventually. But to earn the level of respect we're speaking of, one must be in the game for a lot longer than Kaitlyn has been thus far.

As well, as you yourself mentioned, Kaitlyn is not the assertive type. She is more submissive, and will defer to her Skip. If this character continues throughout her curling career, she will not be counted as one of the most respected curlers - because that is reserved for curlers who are assertive and who are not afraid to speak up and take initiative and, if they are not a Skip, to at least have a significant degree of influence in team strategy. Thus far, this does not seem to be Kaitlyn's natural character - which is fine... but it also won't render her as one of the most respected or revered curlers.

Put succinctly, I would be quite surprised, in 15 to 20 years, when Kaitlyn is the age that Cathy O. is now, if Kaitlyn is as universally liked and respected as Cathy O. is now, or if she is asked to spare on a variety of teams even half as often as Cathy O. is now.

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Old Post 03-29-17 03:46AM
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Manitoba Legend
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Thanks yer honour - good analysis...

However, I would put it to you that Kaitlyn's "submissiveness" as you call it - is the one thing which enables the Jones team to function.

It was on full display during the Olympic games - when JJ was doing all the thinking, asking most of the questions and making all final decisions.

Kaitlyn is exactly the kind of vice Jones requires. There would be no Olympic gold for Canada if Kaitlyn had started to assert herself and demand strategy changes - the one place Jones will always go to war with her 3rd is on brushing & close line calls. Jones is whats called an early anticipator - she'll start screaming like a banshee for early brush or yell NO NO NO far too long - sometimes she's screaming after barely releasing the stone. Kaitlyn always does her job in this regard - she will scream like the dickens (not quite as loud as JJ) her own thoughts - too often the outcome is poor rock placement, failure to roll to the right spot or rolling out when sticking was important - and then JJ says "Sorry, Kaitlyn" or "Sorry Guys!"

You mentioned Kaitlyn having only 4 or 5 years working with Jennifer. Actually its 6. Olympic Gold, The Trials Win, Huge Cash accumultions and 1 neat win of the Scotties T of Hearts. A silver at the worlds - should have been gold but Alina Paetz decided to reveal her Ladyhawke character and picked Jones carcass clean - the girl was on fire. That said, an obviously out-of-sorts Jones still managed to forced Paetz to draw the pin with her final stone. I didn't think Paetz would make that shot. She did!

Kaitlyn, like R Homan also had a storied junior career which put her directly in the gaze of Jennifer Jones. Like Homan, Miskew & Courtney she could have a wonderful post-Jones career as Jones should bow out of the game after next year's trials and/or STOH.

She'll be one of the top free agents - either getting picked up by a top skip (aren't that many around anymore) or forming her own team, possibly taking over a cannonball like Team Englot.

Whenever I post opinion that Lawes and M Miskew are toe to toe as top 3rds in Canada I get some surprising reactions. The majority tell me I have no business comparing Lawes to Miskew - Emma is obviously superior. Frankly, I think its super close. Miskew makes a few more key shots - Lawes makes most of the routine shots but misses the odd intricate shot, mostly due to Jones & Kaitlyn battling over the line/weight call. I seldom hear other names as TOP 3rd - not Sweeting's great vet, nor many others - although this year was a bit of a coming out party for Kendra Lilly & Kate Cameron.

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Old Post 03-29-17 05:01AM
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misty1
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Registered: Sep 2011
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im interested in whats gonna happen with kaitlyn when jj retires. will she return to skipping, and if she does out of what province. i hope she keeps going after her time with jenniffer is over. she was an excellent skip as a junior and when he gets the opportunities she does well at this level.

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Old Post 03-29-17 08:02AM
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curlky
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 501

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
...or if she is asked to spare on a variety of teams even half as often as Cathy O. is now.


I have no idea who Cathy O is, I am relatively new to curling, and nto Canadian, so I have missed her years of being elite. BUt as far as her being a super sub, I am not sure that it says all that much. Elite spares are not easy to find. The best players are going to be on their own teams, so a super spare is going to be a respected, nice, skilled player who has moved away from the grind of full time professional curler, and as I just said, that list is short

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Old Post 03-29-17 10:03AM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10875

quote:
Originally posted by misty1
im interested in whats gonna happen with kaitlyn when jj retires. will she return to skipping, and if she does out of what province. i hope she keeps going after her time with jenniffer is over. she was an excellent skip as a junior and when he gets the opportunities she does well at this level.


The worst scenario would be Jones refusing to go out gracefully and trying to squeeze another 2 or 3 years out of her brilliant career.

Nothing would scorch the curling ice worse than Jones plodding on, shooting 70 to 75%, finishing up the track in the Manitoba championships and taking advantage of all her exemptions into major cssh spiels where no doubt she'd be a big name - BUT NO LONGER A WINNER!

That would also block Kaitlyn's progress as a skip, whether that be in Winnipeg or elsewhere.

As far as Kaitlyn is concerned her fame has largely been accomplished by her skill, dedication to training and perhaps being the most adorable curler in the game.

The jury is still out as to whether she's a killer - like Jones, Homan, Norberg, Coco Jones, Feltscher, etc. She did not exhibit killer instinct when she squandered a world junior championship nearly 10 years ago. She's very accommodating - loves to be loved - and whether she could find the elusive killer instinct remains to be scene. Still, she deserves a shot - perhaps bringing someone like Dawn McEwen aboard.

One other fragmentary question. If Jones is a big killer, why leave her? Well, kinda obvious - Jones might be the biggest killer in the game (Homan is probably in the process of surpassing her) but she's no longer consistent within that capacity. Too many events where she's out of sorts for more than the normal 1 or 2 games. Too many missed basic shots - and increasingly frantic/anxious playing top teams re: rock placement and outcomes.

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Old Post 03-29-17 10:08AM
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Ajay
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Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 345

Super spare??? What comes to my mind, while having accomplished much, why is she even available as a spare? Could it be that she is not a team player to be wanted by a team or can't get people to curl with her on her team? I also feel she went public to suck the fans sympathy after the divorce, whereas Jen treated it as a business decision which it was and kept personnel matters in house, like it should be.

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Old Post 03-29-17 11:13AM
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curlerbroad
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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2028

Uh oh - I was about to add my 25 cents, but I don't think we want to reopen the whole COC/JJ divorce on this again...ML if you want to discuss the merits of Kaitlyn and JJ, maybe we should start a new thread.

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Old Post 03-29-17 11:40AM
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