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10-23-14 08:14PM
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rbi
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Yes, yes, I like Dave Carlson too. Most of the USCA Directors undoubtedly are swell individuals.

But this decision reduces the value and prestige of the U.S. National Curling Championships which is one of the most valuable things going for curling in the USA.

It seems like a lousy idea, and it would be nice to see the arguments in favor of doing it. Otherwise it's just baffling.

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10-23-14 10:55PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:
Originally posted by tuck
Such anger! Really? The substitution of the Junior champs brings forth such passion?

I'm bright enough (barely) to understand that this is just yet another small change and that any change will reignite the passions enflamed by previous changes. Still...really?

To those who were disappointed in Dave Carlson's column, let's be a little bit cool and a little more understanding here. He's not a writer. Before you publicly castigate the man and privately castrate him, remember that he is a very nice guy and a very good man. He, too, has a Senior title. He works very hard and gets very little in return to help USA curling. Carlson also tolerates disagreement very well...unlike most of us...especially me.

Mr. Lucky, a question for you (off topic for this thread) when you have the time: As you see it, if you were coaching a team (let's say at World Juniors) and they started out 2 and 3...then the USCA HPP coach wants to bring in the fifth to skip, bench your second, move your skip to third and third to skip...do they have the authority? Would they do it? (I think they have proven that they would) Should a coach stand up to them? Should the team revolt against the move? You may try to deflect my question by claiming it is hypothetical and unlikely to ever happen...but nobody's dumb enough to fall for that.

Let's keep it civil, people. I get enough righteous anger from FoxNews/MSNBC (just kidding...I never watch either). Overstating your case is dooming your case. It drives people to the other viewpoint and causes other to ignore you. Some of Alice's stuff is quite witty, but it is buried in so much anger that it is impossible to smile. Keep fighting the good fight, Alice...but remember these are good people that you are fighting against. They are wrong, but they are still good people.

Ben Tucker
simply asking for a favor...a touch of civility...this site is starting to read like polarizing political poop


Actually, the team should revolt against that move. I'm not sure how a team can have two skips on the ice at once, namely both the original third and fifth.

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10-23-14 11:06PM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by rbi
could you imagine giving a Brier exemption to a junior team? or the Scotties? or the European Championships?

or can you imagine the USGA Open (golf) giving an exemption to a junior golfer?

this decision baffles me.



When US Nationals curling gets the depth and quality of the Brier/Scotties/European championships, then we probably do not give an exemption to a junior team. But we are a long ways from that. One of the ways to help build USA curling is via our junior curling. So this decision makes all the sense in the world to me.

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10-24-14 12:12AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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BTW, let me play devil's advocate for a second. In every single other team sport, the Olympic teams are chosen based on the best individuals pieced together, rather than the best team. So why is it that, when the USCA chooses to do something similar in curling, the fanbase is up in arms about it? Presumably, players one, two, three and four would beat, just for example, players one, five, eight, and thirteen?

Just wanted to throw that out there, to play devil's advocate. Admittedly, I don't have enough curling experience myself to judge.

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10-24-14 08:27AM
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AlanMacNeill
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Pretty simple reason.

Those other sports, by and in large, have larger teams and a bench. Curling, really, doesn't.

As an example, let's take Basketball. A team is 12-14 players, only 5 of which are on the floor at a given moment. Those other 7-9 players are substituted in and out of the game on demand. However, most teams have a "12th man" who is, frankly, not all that good. They exist for developmental purposes, backup for injury, or a specific rare scenario.

In that case, it makes sense that a team composed of the available starters from the best teams in the league is going to be better than a team which is using 3-4 spots as deep bench.

In Curling, however, a team is 4 people. They (probably) have a fifth player who is capable of filling in in case of injury or fatigue, but if that player comes in, the player removed can't just come back in situationally.

An additional issue is the fact that, for most "Team" sports, we couldn't just take the NBA Champions and slap Red White and Blue on them, as most NBA Teams have at least one foreign national player on them. It's even worse for Hockey, where most NHL players come from Canada.

Curling isn't most team sports, and it shouldn't become most team sports.

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10-24-14 02:32PM
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rbi
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quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs


When US Nationals curling gets the depth and quality of the Brier/Scotties/European championships, then we probably do not give an exemption to a junior team. But we are a long ways from that. One of the ways to help build USA curling is via our junior curling. So this decision makes all the sense in the world to me.



It's the US National Championships. It's not the "Build USA Curling Event".

Exempting juniors weakens US Nationals (that's why they need the exemption). In years when the juniors are strong enough to compete then let them prove it in the challenge round.

And if we don't care about weakening and devaluing US Nationals, then facetiously I'll say I'd rather see USA Curling give an exemption to whoever happens to be the 4th ranked team from Alberta each year. Maybe there is a better chance of that team changing citizenship and gloriously marching Team USA to international podiums.

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10-24-14 02:47PM
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curlny
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....and another week out of school?

__________________
JL

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10-24-14 03:22PM
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kjenion
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silver lining

hey my American curling friends...

Just wanted to try to put a silver lining on all this controversy and upset by making one point which I firmly believe in.

Regardless of all these new rules, limitations, qualifications, etc etc etc, one thing is crystal clear and that is the USA curling community is wide open for a couple of teams to really step up and dominate. You have good players. Yes. You have the facilities. Yes. Take this time to really think about what will bring your team to world class level and do it. Watch what the top men's and women's teams in the world are doing and learn from it. Forget about all this other stuff, if you prove yourself on the ice great things will happen and you all have that opportunity regardless of whether you agree with all of the changes happening in your governing bodies. No more excuses. Its not about what they give you, its about what you do for yourself.

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10-24-14 03:23PM
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You all realize that the challenge round happens prior to the JR nats, right?

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10-28-14 02:36PM
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importance of a team in curling

quote:
Originally posted by SetonHallPirate
BTW, let me play devil's advocate for a second. In every single other team sport, the Olympic teams are chosen based on the best individuals pieced together, rather than the best team. So why is it that, when the USCA chooses to do something similar in curling, the fanbase is up in arms about it? Presumably, players one, two, three and four would beat, just for example, players one, five, eight, and thirteen?

Just wanted to throw that out there, to play devil's advocate. Admittedly, I don't have enough curling experience myself to judge.



I can take this. Unlike most team games, a curling end builds on the shots from the previous player. Each end, the lead starts, the second goes second, the third third. Good point mr obvious, you say, but that is the thing that makes picking good players different in curling. The best curling teams feed off their teammates in important ways.

You can always tell how good a team is by how they miss. If a curler plays 80%, that means they "miss" 1 out of 5 shots. It isn't that perfect, wherein they get 4 perfect scores and a 0, but it is meant to illustrate that even at the top level (and 80% is damn good), people miss.

The thrower of the rock feels like **** for the miss. No one tried to miss. The manner in which the team deals with the miss will inform how well the team will do in the future. If the team gets mad at the player who missed, don't expect the team to stick together.

Also, a team that knows and loves its place is better. The goal of a good team, in my opinion, is build an end for the skipper to get an easy deuce. Three's and fours pop up, but the deuce is the goal. That means the players know, understand, and trust the route to a deuce. Dictatorial skips don't succeed long term. Skippers that empower the team to contribute to the path to a deuce succeed in general.

The danger of throwing a team together, picked by coaches (and not players) comes during a miss. Watch that, and you'll know if the team has a sniff.

My two cents.

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10-28-14 02:45PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Re: importance of a team in curling

quote:
Originally posted by owlhooter


I can take this. Unlike most team games, a curling end builds on the shots from the previous player. Each end, the lead starts, the second goes second, the third third. Good point mr obvious, you say, but that is the thing that makes picking good players different in curling. The best curling teams feed off their teammates in important ways.

You can always tell how good a team is by how they miss. If a curler plays 80%, that means they "miss" 1 out of 5 shots. It isn't that perfect, wherein they get 4 perfect scores and a 0, but it is meant to illustrate that even at the top level (and 80% is damn good), people miss.

The thrower of the rock feels like **** for the miss. No one tried to miss. The manner in which the team deals with the miss will inform how well the team will do in the future. If the team gets mad at the player who missed, don't expect the team to stick together.

Also, a team that knows and loves its place is better. The goal of a good team, in my opinion, is build an end for the skipper to get an easy deuce. Three's and fours pop up, but the deuce is the goal. That means the players know, understand, and trust the route to a deuce. Dictatorial skips don't succeed long term. Skippers that empower the team to contribute to the path to a deuce succeed in general.

The danger of throwing a team together, picked by coaches (and not players) comes during a miss. Watch that, and you'll know if the team has a sniff.

My two cents.


I'll grant you what you just said, but let me ask this, again. What makes a team of, say, Carey, Sweeting, Homan, and Jones (the top three skips from last season's Tournament of Hearts, and last year's Olympic gold medalist) inferior to a team of McEwen, Officer, Lawes, and Jones, which was the team that actually went to Sochi?

Again, playing devil's advocate, not actually arguing the point because I disagree with it. Just trying to see things from USA Curling's point of view.

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10-28-14 03:00PM
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owlhooter
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Re: Re: importance of a team in curling

quote:
Originally posted by SetonHallPirate

I'll grant you what you just said, but let me ask this, again. What makes a team of, say, Carey, Sweeting, Homan, and Jones (the top three skips from last season's Tournament of Hearts, and last year's Olympic gold medalist) inferior to a team of McEwen, Officer, Lawes, and Jones, which was the team that actually went to Sochi?

Again, playing devil's advocate, not actually arguing the point because I disagree with it. Just trying to see things from USA Curling's point of view.



Valid question, and the answer is trust and place. A bit of History: in 1983, three skips and a well-known junior skip (who had been in men's for a dew years) joined forces to form the Dream Team. The team of Ed Werenich, Paul Savage, John Kawaja and the late Neil Harrison. Savage had skipped at the brier with Eddie at second and third. Kawaja had skipped at the junior nationals. Harry had success as a skip (though not Brier.)

Years later, I talked to Harry about the forming of this team. He said, basically, they they all bought into their roles. Egos aside, they all agreed Werenich was the skip he was not the best thrower of the stone on the team, but he was the best shot caller and perhaps, the best shot maker.

If you normally take four skips and tell them to play on a team, they need to buy into the one skip for reasons in previous post, the end must lead up to the final two stones. A team rallies around a miss, especially when the skip misses. Every skip miss is like a closer giving up a home run. So if the team is made up of skips, who aren't fully bought into their role, the team won't function, because the third thinks they would never give up the long ball.

When a team buys into their positions, confidence increases. This game is all about confidence. Think about it: you can go practice and throw hundreds (maybe thousands) of draws to the button on 24 second ice (hog to stop.). You then get to a competition, and you have a draw to the button to win.

In theory, that draw to the button isn't a harder shot. If you're at the top of this game, you've made that shot hundreds of times. And while the sweepers hearts are pounding, and the stress grows, the shot's relative difficulty grows. Having a team that knows its place, supports each other, and has a shared history of success, makes that shot just a little easier. That's why teams win, and all star teams need to learn.

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10-28-14 03:10PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Re: Re: Re: importance of a team in curling

quote:
Originally posted by owlhooter


Valid question, and the answer is trust and place. A bit of History: in 1983, three skips and a well-known junior skip (who had been in men's for a dew years) joined forces to form the Dream Team. The team of Ed Werenich, Paul Savage, John Kawaja and the late Neil Harrison. Savage had skipped at the brier with Eddie at second and third. Kawaja had skipped at the junior nationals. Harry had success as a skip (though not Brier.)

Years later, I talked to Harry about the forming of this team. He said, basically, they they all bought into their roles. Egos aside, they all agreed Werenich was the skip he was not the best thrower of the stone on the team, but he was the best shot caller and perhaps, the best shot maker.

If you normally take four skips and tell them to play on a team, they need to buy into the one skip for reasons in previous post, the end must lead up to the final two stones. A team rallies around a miss, especially when the skip misses. Every skip miss is like a closer giving up a home run. So if the team is made up of skips, who aren't fully bought into their role, the team won't function, because the third thinks they would never give up the long ball.

When a team buys into their positions, confidence increases. This game is all about confidence. Think about it: you can go practice and throw hundreds (maybe thousands) of draws to the button on 24 second ice (hog to stop.). You then get to a competition, and you have a draw to the button to win.

In theory, that draw to the button isn't a harder shot. If you're at the top of this game, you've made that shot hundreds of times. And while the sweepers hearts are pounding, and the stress grows, the shot's relative difficulty grows. Having a team that knows its place, supports each other, and has a shared history of success, makes that shot just a little easier. That's why teams win, and all star teams need to learn.


Please feel free to send that post to USA Curling. That explains things much better than this layman ever could.

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10-28-14 03:14PM
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Re: Re: importance of a team in curling

quote:
Originally posted by SetonHallPirate
[B]
I'll grant you what you just said, but let me ask this, again. What makes a team of, say, Carey, Sweeting, Homan, and Jones (the top three skips from last season's Tournament of Hearts, and last year's Olympic gold medalist) inferior to a team of McEwen, Officer, Lawes, and Jones, which was the team that actually went to Sochi?



At least three things:

1. World Class sweeping is a skillset that needs to be practiced, trained, and honed over years. Taking a Skip, who rarely (if ever) sweeps a stone to judge weight and having them do so is suboptimal, when you have a player available who's been sweeping stones every week for years, and can call weight like he calls his Mom.

2. Skips are not the same as front end curlers. It requires a different skill set, a more mental one, and an ability to develop a strategy for an end and stick with it, modifying as necessary shot by shot. A Front End player, on the other hand, needs to be willing to offer input when asked, but otherwise just throw the exact shot asked for at the exact weight asked for, and then when they are sweeping, to focus on that very physical activity. It's not quite as bad as asking a Center Fielder to come in and be the starting pitcher for the World Series, but it's close.

3. Not all curlers throw the same way. Yep, USCA coaching is trying to eliminate that, but it's never going to succeed. Good Skips know the idiosyncrasies of their team, and play to their strengths. That takes years. You can, maybe, rush it with an elite team (guess we'll see, since the USCA is doing an experiment with our elite teams...hooray labcoats!)

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10-28-14 04:59PM
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Re: Re: Re: importance of a team in curling

quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


At least three things:

1. World Class sweeping is a skillset that needs to be practiced, trained, and honed over years. Taking a Skip, who rarely (if ever) sweeps a stone to judge weight and having them do so is suboptimal, when you have a player available who's been sweeping stones every week for years, and can call weight like he calls his Mom.

2. Skips are not the same as front end curlers. It requires a different skill set, a more mental one, and an ability to develop a strategy for an end and stick with it, modifying as necessary shot by shot. A Front End player, on the other hand, needs to be willing to offer input when asked, but otherwise just throw the exact shot asked for at the exact weight asked for, and then when they are sweeping, to focus on that very physical activity. It's not quite as bad as asking a Center Fielder to come in and be the starting pitcher for the World Series, but it's close.

3. Not all curlers throw the same way. Yep, USCA coaching is trying to eliminate that, but it's never going to succeed. Good Skips know the idiosyncrasies of their team, and play to their strengths. That takes years. You can, maybe, rush it with an elite team (guess we'll see, since the USCA is doing an experiment with our elite teams...hooray labcoats!)


Would it make more sense to have, say, the best first, best second, best third, and best skip from the National Championships, then, advance to worlds? So, for instance, the USA teams at last year's worlds would have been Brunt, Polo, Rojeski, and Shuster for the men, and Walker, Peterson, Joraanstad, and Spatola for the women.

Again, still just playing devil's advocate.

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10-28-14 05:05PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: importance of a team in curling

quote:
Originally posted by SetonHallPirate

Would it make more sense to have, say, the best first, best second, best third, and best skip from the National Championships, then, advance to worlds? So, for instance, the USA teams at last year's worlds would have been Brunt, Polo, Rojeski, and Shuster for the men, and Walker, Peterson, Joraanstad, and Spatola for the women.

Again, still just playing devil's advocate.



In theory, it can happen. You can put the best together. They will need to learn to communicate well. They will need to get a long (you spend a lot of time together, and live with one of them.)

It isn't out of the realm of possibility, but numbers aren't just ability. I strongly believe that people make more draws and nose hits when they feel confident, and that comes with playing with people whom you trust. Then again, maybe that last bit is just me.

This game has always fascinated me in that all shots are either draws to the tee line or nise hits. If you can make a perfect nose hit, then you can make a double run back. On a nose hit, you have to hit the perfect spot. On a double run back, you have to hit the perfect spot. The reason the second shot it harder is the story we add to it. Its for the game, you have to make two rocks move, its "harder".

I think trust makes "harder" shots easier. So, yeah, it could happen. I've seen it happen. Trust comes from the top players all knowing and trusting that their new teammate can bring it. It becomes interesting when they miss. New teams don't know how to deal well with missing.

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10-28-14 06:11PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Herb Brooks was the worst thing ever to happen to Team Olympic Sports in the United States.

He insisted on "Coach > Players", He insisted on "We're going to form an All-Star team and make them play for nothing but the USA for a year", He insisted on total control.

He also got lucky in that he caught lightning in a bottle and beat the Soviets on a fluke last second in the first period shot followed by a choke job from the Soviet Coach pulling the best goalie in International History and replacing him with his backup.

The USOC is now run by folks who saw that as a kid, and think that's the only way it can work, and if our ragtag bunch of kids doesn't succeed, it's because the Plan wasn't Good Enough, let's change everything and take it out of the player's hands and change the plan.

That gold medal was also fairly directly tied with the explosion of US rights fees for the Olympics (LA's success in 84 increased the pace as well), which has given TV more control than the Sports have.

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10-29-14 01:04PM
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Herb Brooks was the coach that said give me the right players not the best players and that All Star Teams don't work. Prior to him coaches had all the control and after him coaches had all the control, but because of him the idea that team dynamics were as important as skill became an acceptable idea.

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10-29-14 02:29PM
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biterbar
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695

"My recruiting key -- I looked for PEOPLE first, athletes second. I wanted people with a sound value system as you cannot buy values. You're only as good as your values. I learned early on that you do not put greatness into people...but somehow try to pull it out."-Herb Brooks

I'm not sure how old you are Alan, but I am not sure where you got your opinion on Herb Brooks. He picked the youngest Olympic hockey team and almost half off his Minnesota Gopher teams. He was hired to get the best team he could to complete with Russia and he did. Many critics said he left some of the best players off the team.

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10-29-14 02:37PM
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MNIceman
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159

Jr Schedule

Jr. State: Dec 27-Jan 4 (varies by state)
US Jr. Nationals: Jan 17-24 (Devils Lake, ND)
US Men's/Women's Nationals: Feb 14-21 (Kalamazoo, MI)
Jr. World's: Feb 28-Mar 8 (Estonia)
Men's World's: Mar 28-Apr 5 (Halifax, NS)
Women's World's: Mar 14-22 (Japan)

So if our Jr. champs happen to win Men's/Women's and have the points to become the US World rep they'll have a pretty busy schedule. 6 days of rest between Estonia and Japan is not the best way to prepare our US Women's team for success. Of course it's a bit of a long shot for the Jr teams to win both Nationals but it's certainly possible.

The schools of the Jr team members won't be thrilled about this schedule either.

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10-29-14 03:19PM
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Gerry
CZ Founder

 

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

I would suggest the top Junior teams in the USA are as good or better than the bottom half of the teams playing at the USA Nationals. The issue is though that they CAN'T currently play in the USA Nationals as the Challenge Round and Junior Nationals either conflict or are very close together and isn't the best for development for a Junior team looking to win their Nationals.

All you need to do is follow their results on Tour to see they belong. Both top junior teams (Christensen, Dropkin) are the 6th ranked teams on the Order of Merit and that's done only playing part of the season on the Adult Tour as they do partake in junior events as well.

What berthing them into the Nationals does is give them experience on the arena ice, and a great week of preparation right before they head off to the World Juniors.

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10-29-14 04:01PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

Oh, Gerry Gerry Gerry...the only thing you know about curling is to be quiet and do what Tuck tells you to do.

"Berthing"? Is that even a word? Sounds like it should be preceded by Lamaze class and focused breathing.

Ben Tucker
Just having fun. I have no views on this topic.

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10-29-14 04:34PM
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nom de broom
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 84

Speaking of Herb Brooks and Old Time Hockey

I'd love to know how the Calgary Curling Club ended up with all the media coverage of the Washington Capitals team-building day instead of Potomac CC.

Perhaps Mr. MacNeill -- supporter extraordinaire of "growing the sport at the grass roots" -- can enlighten us on how his club missed out on an amazing PR opportunity?

nom de broom

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10-29-14 04:38PM
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064

Umm....because hockey teams schedule their team building opportunities for the time when the team is on the road and needs things to do in the 2-3 days between games on a road trip...pretty straightforward, really.

We had another NHL team in last year...and it was covered quite nicely, thank you.

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10-29-14 07:11PM
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Hot shot tony
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2012
Location:
Posts: 19

We've tried to get the Caps here for about the last four years and every year, they turn us down. Alan pointed out we had a team come to PCC. It was actually in the fall of 2011, the LA Kings.

They started their season in Europe then when they came back to the US, they were playing on the east coast. They had a couple days before going up to Philly so they stayed in Annapolis and practiced at one of the hockey rinks at the facility. One afternoon after practice, we hosted them. They were awesome.

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