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02-13-15 10:54AM |
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2668 |
Other amateur sports have this format which maybe could be considered by the CCA. As they seem to be complying with the equal access as decreed by Sports Canada - it works like this:
If you finished in the top 4 the previous year you get an invite back to the Nationals
There are regional competitions held - the top 5 get to go to nationals no matter what province they represent.
Curling would have to adjust but it could work and save some teams expensive long trips for only 2 days of competition.
Of course the Provinces will have to buy in as it would dramatically change their playdown structure too. But in Ontario, there is talk about getting rid of zone competition anyway.
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02-13-15 11:01AM |
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greenroad
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 706 |
I think the new format is a great step forward. For years people have complained about provinces/territories being in the Brier/Scotties with also-ran teams. This has allowed a process to ensure that from the bottom crowd the best (least worst?) gets in.
Any why would there be more than 12 teams? More costly, more cumbersome. And the additions would just be the also-rans, cluttering up the tourney.
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02-13-15 12:23PM |
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ronbro
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 23 |
Relegation
I think the main problem here is defining what the Brier/Scotties should be. Is it a competition to determine who should represent Canada at the worlds, or a national curling party. If the latter then yes -every Prov/Terr should be represented. If it the former then only the top 12 teams (as that seems to be the best # of teams) should be there. After watching and being involved for over 50 yrs I have come to the point of indecision also on what these events should be producing. Why can't they still produce a National Champion but not be the rep at the Worlds?? Can another competition do the same but with a better top team representation? Will take some bold thinking and decisions for sure. Ronald
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02-13-15 12:37PM |
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nelski
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Twin Snowbanks
Posts: 2068 |
I see a flaw in the relegation system.
Though I am a supporter of the system, I think that it is just going to marginalize the territories.
The losers of the relegation round are destined to be in it next year. I believe that the relegation round should be played AFTER the Scotties and the Brier so that the actual team that is RELEGATED has to play these other teams. Otherwise, a NEW team from that province, and probably a stronger team (or possibly at least) will be playing the territories (or the losers of the previous relegation round).
This way, the relegated team has a year to prepare. Is playing a team that has come off the ice and is game for slaughter. Also, the winner of the relegation round has a year to prepare for the next season's event. That is fair.
EDIT: It also means that the newly relegated prov/territory will MISS ONE YEAR. That is also fair.
Thoughts?
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Last edited by nelski on 02-13-15 at 12:41PM
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02-13-15 03:43PM |
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FollowingAlong
Swing Artist
Registered: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 459 |
quote: Originally posted by nelski
I see a flaw in the relegation system.
Though I am a supporter of the system, I think that it is just going to marginalize the territories.
The losers of the relegation round are destined to be in it next year. I believe that the relegation round should be played AFTER the Scotties and the Brier so that the actual team that is RELEGATED has to play these other teams. Otherwise, a NEW team from that province, and probably a stronger team (or possibly at least) will be playing the territories (or the losers of the previous relegation round).
This way, the relegated team has a year to prepare. Is playing a team that has come off the ice and is game for slaughter. Also, the winner of the relegation round has a year to prepare for the next season's event. That is fair.
EDIT: It also means that the newly relegated prov/territory will MISS ONE YEAR. That is also fair.
Thoughts?
That approach has equal problems. Works great the first year as the two teams who didn't make the big show hang around until the Friday/Saturday of the big show and play the relegation stuff. One team wins and what do you do the following year? The two relegated provinces/territories run a provincial/territorial championship to send a team who you now know is going **only** for the last weekend's relegation playoff. No thanks - not interested in doing that at all!
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02-13-15 08:28PM |
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nelski
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Twin Snowbanks
Posts: 2068 |
quote: Originally posted by FollowingAlong
No thanks - not interested in doing that at all!
Of course not. THAT is the penalty. You REALLY ARE relegated. One year off, no matter HOW GOOD your next year's champion is. That champ wins the province and plays to get the province BACK into the big game. Teams not interested in playing for that... oh well. A provincial champion and savior is not a bad legacy either. And just win the province the following year.
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02-13-15 09:05PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
just a curious question, what would happen if team Canada finished last and faced relegation the following year. that would mean the Brier or Scotties winning team would be relegated the next year and have to play their way in.
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02-13-15 09:21PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
No, because it will be this years winner that's next year's team Canada...... even if they break up and come back with 3 part time players and a BC skip!!
Last edited by IN-OFF-FOR-2 on 02-13-15 at 09:24PM
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02-14-15 12:48AM |
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FollowingAlong
Swing Artist
Registered: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 459 |
quote: Originally posted by nelski
Of course not. THAT is the penalty. You REALLY ARE relegated. One year off, no matter HOW GOOD your next year's champion is. That champ wins the province and plays to get the province BACK into the big game. Teams not interested in playing for that... oh well. A provincial champion and savior is not a bad legacy either. And just win the province the following year.
Have at 'er. We'll see how well that works.
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02-14-15 11:19AM |
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Curlwalker
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 109 |
Brier vs other
In terms of whether the Brier winner should rep Canada at the worlds..I think the answer is still yes. In my opinion the other events are successes only because of the Brier and it's residency rules. My logic is this.
Most people, I think, enjoy watching team sports when they have some to cheer for. They cheer for the Leafs, the Habs etc. because they represent their "community" in some way. Even though the players on that team may not be born there they do live there and become part of the community. The Brier imparts that sense of belonging to the teams representing their provinces. Without that they become just mercenaries and the games between them just exhibitions.
As for the religion, I am not against it as the size of the event has to be managed but it should be limited to keep the principle of one per province intact.
Would another event produce a better champion. Maybe. But if we carry that through wouldn't the worlds produce a better champion if only the top teams were in it (multiple canadian teams, a couple from scotland, sweden, switzerland etc.) Probably yes too but would that grow and keep interest in the rest of the world?
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02-14-15 08:35PM |
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Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
It's funny how this relegation debate is rising its ugly head again. This was supposed to have been dealt with years ago when the issue of relegation first came up. Apparently the "message was never delivered to the masses" until the last year.
I wonder why?
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02-14-15 09:42PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
Is that sarcastic? If you know the real answer, many of us would like to know.
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02-15-15 01:16PM |
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greenroad
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 706 |
I guess the Brier/Sotties could be filled using ranking points - as used in golf or tennis tournies. It would get a much better quality field but at least eight of the 12 teams would come from West of the Lakehead.
Of course it wouldn't be a national championship any more as we know it in curling, would be less attractive to the fans and more importantly, to TSN.
With the playdowns allowing all provs/terrs to get a chance to get in we have a good set up now.
Now, I can't see it as being practical but separately a ranking system could be used to select the teams to play for representing Canada at the worlds but that if you do that winning the Brier and Scotties become hollow victories.
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02-15-15 02:12PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
i wish people would stop suggesting curling copy other sports methods. curling should stick with the way its been doing things, no need to copy anyone else
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02-15-15 05:59PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
To be honest, and I think most Canadian curlers feel the same, in that who gives a **** about the curling worlds? As long as we stay competitive (i.e., we keep our spot in the Olympics without having to go through qualifiers), then does it matter?
The Brier and the Scotties will always have a representative that will be competitive at the worlds (if not win it). And those events pull the entire country of curlers together and generate interest in all parts of the country beyond the just once every four years that the Olympics might.
And they give those second string teams a dream of making it... and does allow for second tier teams to use the event to work their way up and providing a pool of additional curlers to move up to the top tier.
The Olympics seems to be where all the focus is, and I think we have a really good process for selecting the best Canadian teams for it. So why screw around with the Brier/Scotties any more than we already have?
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02-15-15 06:06PM |
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freezetothehack
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: New Brunswick
Posts: 199 |
quote: Originally posted by JustAnotherHack
To be honest, and I think most Canadian curlers feel the same, in that who gives a **** about the curling worlds? As long as we stay competitive (i.e., we keep our spot in the Olympics without having to go through qualifiers), then does it matter?
The Brier and the Scotties will always have a representative that will be competitive at the worlds (if not win it). And those events pull the entire country of curlers together and generate interest in all parts of the country beyond the just once every four years that the Olympics might.
And they give those second string teams a dream of making it... and does allow for second tier teams to use the event to work their way up and providing a pool of additional curlers to move up to the top tier.
The Olympics seems to be where all the focus is, and I think we have a really good process for selecting the best Canadian teams for it. So why screw around with the Brier/Scotties any more than we already have?
Shussssssh......Warren knows best!
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02-16-15 08:59AM |
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Island Roger
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 51 |
Couldn't care less about the worlds. I do have a question though ..... what does the CCA have in place in case the host province gets relegated ?
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02-17-15 02:45AM |
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doubletakeout
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 480 |
Host province is guaranteed entry into the event. The lowest-ranked, non-host province will be sent to the qualification round.
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02-17-15 11:57AM |
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Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
As for the debate about the Brier/Scotties winner going to the World's, when was the last time that one of the "BIG" rinks didn't win the Brier/Scotties?
Exactly...
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02-18-15 12:50PM |
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nelski
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Twin Snowbanks
Posts: 2068 |
The Death Blow
Being a spoiler has always been part of the dynamic of round robin play. A team, out of contention, can defeat a team that otherwise would have qualified for the playoffs, or for a tiebreaker, and elicit a sigh of relief and gratitude from the team in the wings, depending on the outcome for their advancement. The spoiler is a special team characteristic.
But now, we have another dynamic. The death blow. This is where a team that has qualified, or is safely in the middle of the pack, defeats a team on the brink of relegation. A win by the struggling team will keep them out of trouble. A loss by the death blow slayer has no effect on their position, this year or next.
How does that feel? The before-game, locker room chat might go, "Let's put them DOWN team! Let's send them to relegation BigTme. Yeah." Is it really, "just another game"? Is there a pang of guilt in the heart of the spoiler, or the caster of the death blow?
EDIT: Has anyone else begun checking the bottom of the standings to see who will become lambs for the slaughter? The relegations tiebreakers will be interesting games.
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Lots of major youth (<21) events. Nice for Murdoch... and us :-D.
Last edited by nelski on 02-18-15 at 12:54PM
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02-18-15 01:03PM |
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Donr
Hitting Paint
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Selkirk
Posts: 140 |
quote: Originally posted by Jimbobogie
As for the debate about the Brier/Scotties winner going to the World's, when was the last time that one of the "BIG" rinks didn't win the Brier/Scotties?
Exactly...
2004 Mark Dacey
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02-18-15 02:35PM |
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2668 |
Re: The Death Blow
quote: Originally posted by nelski
Being a spoiler has always been part of the dynamic of round robin play. A team, out of contention, can defeat a team that otherwise would have qualified for the playoffs, or for a tiebreaker, and elicit a sigh of relief and gratitude from the team in the wings, depending on the outcome for their advancement. The spoiler is a special team characteristic.
But now, we have another dynamic. The death blow. This is where a team that has qualified, or is safely in the middle of the pack, defeats a team on the brink of relegation. A win by the struggling team will keep them out of trouble. A loss by the death blow slayer has no effect on their position, this year or next.
How does that feel? The before-game, locker room chat might go, "Let's put them DOWN team! Let's send them to relegation BigTme. Yeah." Is it really, "just another game"? Is there a pang of guilt in the heart of the spoiler, or the caster of the death blow?
EDIT: Has anyone else begun checking the bottom of the standings to see who will become lambs for the slaughter? The relegations tiebreakers will be interesting games.
Quebec and BC better get on winning streaks or they could be playing in the pre-quals next year...NWT or Yukon could easily beat these two teams. Let's hope the Northern teams come back!
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02-18-15 02:44PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
so whatever team finishes last this year gets relegated right?
safe to say that bc getting relegated would be huge given the proud history and list of great champions the province has produced
i thought lauren mann could do well here but them doing so poorly here just proves the theory that without larouche quebec is screwed
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02-18-15 03:41PM |
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Guest
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: .
Posts: 1844 |
quote: Originally posted by misty1
so whatever team finishes last this year gets relegated right?
What would happen if Team Canada ever finished last?
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