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12-29-17 02:39PM
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Stoh

I just wanted to clarify some things that I found in the STOH program from last year, which I updated for 2017. This follows some speculation from ML on the Olympic prediction thread:

Most Scotties wins at skip:

Colleen Jones - 140 (19 appearances at skip, 21 total appearances)
Jennifer Jones - 124 (12 appearances, all at skip)
Connie Laliberte - 74
Kelly Scott - 68
Sue Anne Bartlett - 66
Cathy King - 57
Sandra Schmirler - 57
Michell Englot - 55
Rachel Homan - 54
Heather Strong - 54

Also, I believe the 16th Scotties team will be decided by the top CTRS teams that have not already qualified for the Scotties after the mid January provincials. Right now the order of teams is Jones, Carey, Homan (not eligible for Scotties), Einarson and Rocque. So, if neither Jennifer nor Chelsea win their respective province, they would play one game for the 16th spot. If one or both win, they would go down the list to see who would play in that game.

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12-29-17 03:57PM
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Interesting list - I would have thought JJ had surpassed Coco in total wins by now, not so!

Also interesting, with just a mediocre performance at this year's STOH, 54 yr old phenom Michelle Englot can move into the Top 5 all-time w/ only a mediocre 5 or 6 win outing in Kelowna. She'd still be behind Sue Ann Bartlett for 5th but Sue Ann held an auto-berth in Nfld for nearly 30 years and had 14 Scotties appearances over that time. Great champion and even better ambassador for curling - she only got close twice, usually petering out against the western teams & Ontario.

Thought Shannon K and Heather Ned would be higher but Heather didn't get into serious action until she was older and Shannon, other than her great Olympic year was pretty much an also ran to Cathy King & others for years in Alberta.

Also thought Sherri Middaugh and Stef Lawton would be higher but I guess Ontario is so competitive she didn't get out of there enough. Same with Lawton - I'm sure both ladies are in the 45 to 50 win category though!

Rachel needs another 4 or 5 yrs to get into JJ or C Jones country - she should average 11 to 13 wins a year when she gets back to Scotties action!

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12-29-17 06:50PM
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Sherry has 42 wins. Shannon has 29. Heather must have fewer than 25, but remember, she played third for King a few times.

As far as championships by province (giving the province the win where the team was Team Canada and they won), it is:

Sask - 12
Man - 11
BC- 10
Ont - 8
Alberta - 7
Nova Scotia - 7
NB - 1
Quebec - 1

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12-30-17 02:40PM
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If your an autobirth, would you not have more than 14 appearances in 30 years Strong has 54 wins so it looks like the Legions numbers dont add up

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12-30-17 02:51PM
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quote:
Originally posted by darkwing01
If your an autobirth, would you not have more than 14 appearances in 30 years


ssshhhh. The poster isn't known for her mathematical abilities.

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12-30-17 06:01PM
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ML. "Sue Ann Bartlett held an auto-birth in Newfoundland for nearly 30 years and had 14 Scotties appearances over that time".

That's incorrect. She had 12 Canadian Championship appearances over a 21 year period, the first of which was in '71, the last '91.


ML. " I would have thought J.J. had surpassed CoCo in total wins by now".

Given that Colleen has won 6 Canadian Championships to 5 for Jonesy, what kind of calculus did you ever use to come up with that conclusion?

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12-30-17 08:41PM
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I believe MLs post was not meant to be literal. I think his point is that teams from provinces that are not as deep as others are bound to win more games at the Scotties due to the fact they might attend more than other teams. For example, I doubt Colleen Jones would have attended 21 Scotties or Sue Anne Bartlett 12 Scotties if they had been in Manitoba or Alberta. Either way, the two Joneses have quite a few more Scotties wins than anybody else.

As for the depth in womens curling in Canada, I would say it is stronger than ever, but concentrated in three provinces. This is borne out by the fact that of the 21 teams in the Trials and Pre Trials, 19 came from either Ontario (northern and southern), Manitoba or Alberta. That is not to say there are not strong teams from the other provinces. just the highest ranked teams are from the top three provinces.

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12-30-17 10:02PM
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I feel really bad . . . . !!!

Yapped so much about the Jones teams winning so many games that even Homan might have trouble catching both of them - I completely forgot to pay homage to one of the greatest rinks to ever take to the ice lanes - the collective of Saskatchewan's Joyce McKee & Vera Pezer. McKee won a ton of regional Canadian events before they put together the Double D in 1962 - and combined with Vera Pezer this duo probably won at least 45 games if you just count their appearances at their 5 national titles in the 60s & 70s. Pezer took over the skipping at McKee's insistence, McKee moved down to 2nd when they found a hot flame-thrower named Sheila Rowan to toss 3rd stones.

So if for nothing else - this post is designed to correct a wrong - we salute Vera Pezer & the late Joyce McKee (of Saskatchewan) for their amazing curling accomplishments.

btw - those who saw 1950 to early 1970s womens teams could easily boast they wouldn't stand a chance vs. today's super women's teams. I beg to differ. People like Pezer & McKee were every bit as good as Sandra Schmirler & Jan Betker. If catapulted thru time they would quickly realize how much time and training they'd have to commit to in order to compete with monsters like Jones, Homan, Carey, Muirhead, The Swiss 3, McCarville, etc.
No question the teams of the 1960s were comprised of mostly 50 to 70% curlers - a shorter slide, wonkier ice, less training, different pebble on mostly club ice accounts for much of it. Give people like Pezer, McKee or even Susan Seitz of alberta some months to re-calibrate their styles and train hard and they'd be every bit the monsters we feature today! NO QUESTION!

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12-30-17 11:59PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ott-am
I believe MLs post was not meant to be literal. I think his point is that teams from provinces that are not as deep as others are bound to win more games at the Scotties due to the fact they might attend more than other teams. For example, I doubt Colleen Jones would have attended 21 Scotties or Sue Anne Bartlett 12 Scotties if they had been in Manitoba or Alberta. Either way, the two Joneses have quite a few more Scotties wins than anybody else.

As for the depth in womens curling in Canada, I would say it is stronger than ever, but concentrated in three provinces. This is borne out by the fact that of the 21 teams in the Trials and Pre Trials, 19 came from either Ontario (northern and southern), Manitoba or Alberta. That is not to say there are not strong teams from the other provinces. just the highest ranked teams are from the top three provinces.



Thank you for this post. Every once in a while this forum needs someone to put things in perspective. Thanks again.

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12-31-17 08:40AM
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thanks to this new stupid scotties/brier format one of jones, sweeting or carey are almost guaranteed to be there.

if not for that i'd say that this could be the most wide open field ever should none of them get there.

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12-31-17 10:10AM
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ML. "Rachel needs another 4 or 5 years to get into JJ.
country."

The plan, ML., is not to simply rack up Scotties wins; it's actually to win Scotties Championships, World Championships, the Olympic Trials, Olympic gold, and G.S. Championships, etc.

How many games that have to be won to achieve these championships is by comparison nearly irrelevant.

It's the number of Championships, bro, not the number of wins one accumulates along the way.

Gather ye rosebuds while ye may.

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12-31-17 10:15AM
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I think the folks welcoming all or one of Jones, Sweeting & Carey (aside from their own large cadre of fans) are the event organizers in BC.

Wouldn't have to worry about attendance in Regina, Saskatoon, Moose Jaw, Red Deer, Calgary, Edmonton, Brandon, Thunder Bay, London, Ottawa or even Halifax (The A Markets for curling) but we're already short R. Homan.

Other than Jones & Homan teams the most recognizable faces on the women's curling scene are Valerie Sweeting & Chels Carey - so if none of them manage to squeeze into the Scotties bus it could be lonely days in the arena.

The only thing is that if Big 3 teams have to butt their way in thru the CTRS points/playoff system vs. winning their own provinces - perhaps they're not as powerful as many think. But they'd sure be missed at the box office.

Jones has shown most quality teams in the country how easily beatable she is if she can be convinced the ice is wonky; Sweeting always has that puzzled look on her face while her teammates are giggling their faces off and while Carey can still put up monster numbers she's as consistent as a yo-you.

Wonder if somewhere in a Saskatchewan Tim Hortons Stefanie Lawton & Amber Holland are plotting an alliance to bring a Saskatchewan super-team out of the potash province???

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12-31-17 01:57PM
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Whether you like the new format or not, ML is right, at least it will guarantee another name team, no matter how the provincials go over the next two weeks. Speaking of which, it should be interesting in some provinces:

NL - while former Cdn junior champ Curtis travels quite a bit, I would not count Strong out.
NB - Robichaud has not played much this year, but should be in the hunt with Mallais and last year's champ, Armstrong.
PEI - McPhee is the only team that travels to play, so will be the favourite.
NS - Pretty deep field with veteran skips Arsenault and Breen, then McEvoy, McDiarmid and former Cdn junior champ Brothers.
Que - Belisle travels more than anybody, but you cannot count Larouche out playing in her home club, even though she does not play much these days. The field has not been disclosed yet, but I assume the younger teams like Neron, Perron and Lapierre will be in.
Ont - deep field with Flaxey, Tippin, Middaugh, Harrison, Auld and others. Whoever wins should be a playoff contender in Penticton.
NO - Two team battle as usual between McCarville and Fleury. Either would be contenders in the Scotties
MB - another deep field with Jones, Einarson, Robertson, Melleur, Birchard and others. Again, whoever wins will be a contender in the Okanagan.
SK - Pretty good field with veteran skips like Anderson, Holland and Lawton and up and comers like defending champ Barker, the Howard cousins and last years runner up Silvernagle (who have added Campbell at third).
AB - probably the toughest field with Carey, Scheideggar, Sweeting, Kleibrink, Rocque and Scotland. Whoever wins this will be one of the favourites at the Scotties.
BC - BC has had good success in juniors recently, but this has not translated to success at womens yet since Scott retired. Veteran Gushulak will be tough as will Pre-Trials team Thompson. This will be the first year in womens for former junior champ Brown and the first year for the three Van Osch sisters to be on the same team in womens play. Whoever wins this will have the home province support at the Scotties.
NWT - Galusha will be the favourite with Koltun joining forces with her at third.
Yukon and Nunavut - not sure

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12-31-17 05:22PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ott-am
Whether you like the new format or not, ML is right, at least it will guarantee another name team, no matter how the provincials go over the next two weeks. Speaking of which, it should be interesting in some provinces:

NL - while former Cdn junior champ Curtis travels quite a bit, I would not count Strong out.
NB - Robichaud has not played much this year, but should be in the hunt with Mallais and last year's champ, Armstrong.
PEI - McPhee is the only team that travels to play, so will be the favourite.
NS - Pretty deep field with veteran skips Arsenault and Breen, then McEvoy, McDiarmid and former Cdn junior champ Brothers.
Que - Belisle travels more than anybody, but you cannot count Larouche out playing in her home club, even though she does not play much these days. The field has not been disclosed yet, but I assume the younger teams like Neron, Perron and Lapierre will be in.
Ont - deep field with Flaxey, Tippin, Middaugh, Harrison, Auld and others. Whoever wins should be a playoff contender in Penticton.
NO - Two team battle as usual between McCarville and Fleury. Either would be contenders in the Scotties
MB - another deep field with Jones, Einarson, Robertson, Melleur, Birchard and others. Again, whoever wins will be a contender in the Okanagan.
SK - Pretty good field with veteran skips like Anderson, Holland and Lawton and up and comers like defending champ Barker, the Howard cousins and last years runner up Silvernagle (who have added Campbell at third).
AB - probably the toughest field with Carey, Scheideggar, Sweeting, Kleibrink, Rocque and Scotland. Whoever wins this will be one of the favourites at the Scotties.
BC - BC has had good success in juniors recently, but this has not translated to success at womens yet since Scott retired. Veteran Gushulak will be tough as will Pre-Trials team Thompson. This will be the first year in womens for former junior champ Brown and the first year for the three Van Osch sisters to be on the same team in womens play. Whoever wins this will have the home province support at the Scotties.
NWT - Galusha will be the favourite with Koltun joining forces with her at third.
Yukon and Nunavut - not sure



Superb analysis Art. I'd love to see some Ontario team pick up Jenn Hanna as 5th or coach - she's a tiger and one of the greats in Ontario curling lore.
As far as Manitoba is concerned - Jones reputation precedes her but her last 4games at the trials and her last couple matches at last year's manitobas were a personal embarrassment to Ms. Jones - her team is still strong but Jennifer has been sketchy.
If Jones is pushed to the side (she'll still have a good chance to qualify thru CTRS pts) then I'd put my money on Einarson or The Brianes. Einarson was totally embarrassed with her failure to qualify for the Trials and The Brianes are starting to catch up to Team Einarson - but like 3rd favourite Birchard they throw fairly stiffly and lack any exceptional nuanced game!!!

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01-01-18 09:41AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


Superb analysis Art. I'd love to see some Ontario team pick up Jenn Hanna as 5th or coach - she's a tiger and one of the greats in Ontario curling lore.

I



Hanna is only a great in your mind. She was a two year wonder. There are at least a dozen other Ontario teams would be ranked ahead of her in historical stats,

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01-01-18 09:49AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ott-am
Whether you like the new format or not, ML is right, at least it will guarantee another name team, no matter how the provincials go over the next two weeks. Speaking of which, it should be interesting in some provinces:

NL - while former Cdn junior champ Curtis travels quite a bit, I would not count Strong out.
NB - Robichaud has not played much this year, but should be in the hunt with Mallais and last year's champ, Armstrong.
PEI - McPhee is the only team that travels to play, so will be the favourite.
NS - Pretty deep field with veteran skips Arsenault and Breen, then McEvoy, McDiarmid and former Cdn junior champ Brothers.
Que - Belisle travels more than anybody, but you cannot count Larouche out playing in her home club, even though she does not play much these days. The field has not been disclosed yet, but I assume the younger teams like Neron, Perron and Lapierre will be in.
Ont - deep field with Flaxey, Tippin, Middaugh, Harrison, Auld and others. Whoever wins should be a playoff contender in Penticton.
NO - Two team battle as usual between McCarville and Fleury. Either would be contenders in the Scotties
MB - another deep field with Jones, Einarson, Robertson, Melleur, Birchard and others. Again, whoever wins will be a contender in the Okanagan.
SK - Pretty good field with veteran skips like Anderson, Holland and Lawton and up and comers like defending champ Barker, the Howard cousins and last years runner up Silvernagle (who have added Campbell at third).
AB - probably the toughest field with Carey, Scheideggar, Sweeting, Kleibrink, Rocque and Scotland. Whoever wins this will be one of the favourites at the Scotties.
BC - BC has had good success in juniors recently, but this has not translated to success at womens yet since Scott retired. Veteran Gushulak will be tough as will Pre-Trials team Thompson. This will be the first year in womens for former junior champ Brown and the first year for the three Van Osch sisters to be on the same team in womens play. Whoever wins this will have the home province support at the Scotties.
NWT - Galusha will be the favourite with Koltun joining forces with her at third.
Yukon and Nunavut - not sure



i agree, it guarantees at least one big name will be there. its not important for me personally but i can see why it is for the event.

agree with your analysis here. cant's disagree with much. much as i like larouche i dont think she's played anywhere this year. it's hard to win when your coming in with little no no practice. belisle is the massive favorite here but i wouldnt mind seeing someone new get through. quebec isnt going to be able to lean on larouche and belisle forever.

ontario will be interesting to see if flaxey can put it together for one event and have one bright spot in what's been a dismal season. is froud qualified she might have something to say too. it's harrison's best shot to get to a scotties but i'd like to see sherry get there.

manitoba and alberta are the 2 toughest and just to hard to call. would be great to see birchard get through but it'll be tough. alberta..im not even gonna try and make a pick either. everyone can beat everyone

saskatchewan has a lot of good or okay teams but no one great. lawton is well past her prime. same goes for holland and anderson. young teams like barker and howard just arent good enough to compete with the best..yet

van osch and brown are 2 of BC's best younger teams but neither travel much away from BC and i think that stops them from taking the next step, though i believe van osch does travel a little more. think brown is and will be the better of the 2 but it might be to soon to see her win this title yet. will probably be gushulak or thompson

galuska was the best by a wide margin in the northwest territories before and now with koltun the gap gets even larger.

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01-01-18 04:51PM
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Froud did not qualify for the Ontario Scotties, but all 12 teams are pretty good.

ML, I believe Jenn Hanna still plays in the club, but is not on the circuit.

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01-01-18 05:48PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ott-am
Froud did not qualify for the Ontario Scotties, but all 12 teams are pretty good.

ML, I believe Jenn Hanna still plays in the club, but is not on the circuit.



Good to hear Hanna is still curling in Ottawa - business league or whatever!

Any young team would be fortified by her presence as 5th player or coach. She's a steel-backed performer with tons of information to keep a younger team buoyed. Obviously, she's not right for vets like Middaugh or even a super-squad like Homan but just about any other team could benefit from her wisdom and experience!

I always loved her no-nonsense approach to the game. . . . . . . and that she (and her then 2nd player Dawn Askin) were the launching pad for Jennifer Jones stellar career!

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01-01-18 06:36PM
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Would not be surprised to see Justine Comeau win NB or Veronica Smith win PEI

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01-03-18 09:30AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


Good to hear Hanna is still curling in Ottawa - business league or whatever!

Any young team would be fortified by her presence as 5th player or coach. She's a steel-backed performer with tons of information to keep a younger team buoyed. Obviously, she's not right for vets like Middaugh or even a super-squad like Homan but just about any other team could benefit from her wisdom and experience!

I always loved her no-nonsense approach to the game. . . . . . . and that she (and her then 2nd player Dawn Askin) were the launching pad for Jennifer Jones stellar career!


For a skip that only appeared at the STOH twice, you are certainly smitten with her. Hanna's last appearance was rather lackluster IMO. Note that young teams have not asked her to be their 5th but Tippin did bring Sherri Middaugh to the trials.

To get to Olympic trials level you need to put in the time, something Hanna was quoted as saying she could not do.

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01-04-18 10:35AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ott-am

Que - Belisle travels more than anybody, but you cannot count Larouche out playing in her home club, even though she does not play much these days. The field has not been disclosed yet, but I assume the younger teams like Neron, Perron and Lapierre will be in.



It has been. I saw at first 5 teams, but looks like there will be 8 teams in the Quebec Scotties. Lapiere isn't in this though.

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01-08-18 11:48AM
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So far:

TC - Englot
NL - Curtis
PEI- MacPhee ( I think, they appeared to stop scoring after the men finished)
NB- Robichaud
NWT - Galusha
SK - Anderson
BC - Van Osch

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01-08-18 06:25PM
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Location: Summerside, Prince Edward Island Canada
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MacPhee did win. If you had checked www.peicurling.com website and scoreboard you would of found score. I was posting on that site and someone us from curlingzone was taking my scores but didn't finish it of and they had a few mistakes on curlingzone on the weekend messing scores up. I have email Gerry and told him. Ones that know me when I do scores I take pride in doing it and I know curlingzone is a great site to get all scores but I do not have access to post scores to it.

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01-09-18 10:24AM
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jonren
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 46

Kaitlyn posted on social media that she is playing in provincials, not sure what this means for the National Scotties as that is in direct conflict with the Olympics.. I can imagine it was hard to find a suitable replacement so last minute as most of Manitoba's talent would have already been playing in the Provincial Scotties

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01-09-18 10:30AM
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nelsosi
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 462

I'd imagine that if Jones wins Manitoba, then she'd find a replacement for the STOH for Kaitlyn - there would be a lot of options to choose from should that happen.

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