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| 06-02-16 08:25PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote:
Originally posted by steveneger
One team is known:
Heater, Plys, Dropkin, Howell
Where was that published? If that is so, then you now likely have this:
Team A
John Shuster
Tyler George
Matt Hamilton
John Landsteiner
Team B
Heath McCormick
Chris Plys
Korey Dropkin
Tom Howell
Team C
Craig Brown
Kroy Nernberger
and then 2 of these 4, with 2 of these 4 being spare
Sean Beighton
Quinn Evenson
Jason Smith
Joe Polo
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| 06-02-16 09:36PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Published? It's been known for a couple of days. They even have a Facebook page.
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| 06-03-16 09:08AM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Where was that published? If that is so, then you now likely have this:
Team A
John Shuster
Tyler George
Matt Hamilton
John Landsteiner
Team B
Heath McCormick
Chris Plys
Korey Dropkin
Tom Howell
Team C
Craig Brown
Kroy Nernberger
and then 2 of these 4, with 2 of these 4 being spare
Sean Beighton
Quinn Evenson
Jason Smith
Joe Polo
I would like to see Beighton and Polo join Brown for this next run.
I keep looking at the names on this list and wonder who would be embarrassed to not picked for the HP? I can see indignant or angry if I was the national defending champion, but I would want my named published.
Still incredibly disappointed in the USCA and CZ over this PR mess.
__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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| 06-03-16 10:31AM |
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VanillaIce
Administrator
Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 154 |
Transparency vs. Privacy
quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
Public information. This stinks to high heaven. The lack of transparency in the HP Program is disheartening.
The fact this was released at 4:30 on a Friday of a major holiday weekend goes to show how opaque they are trying to be. Public Relations 101 teaches this is the worst time (Friday, late afternoon, holiday) to do it to reach your audience. It should have been released 10:00 this morning.
I just wanted to chime in here on the fact that the word "Transparency" has been bandied about a lot in the recent past on CZ with respect to USA Curling. It should be noted that Transparency SHOULD NOT trump privacy.
I found a good quote that I agree with regarding the debate around corporate transparency and individual privacy that I think applies here:
"Transparency is the opportunity and even the obligation of institutions to communicate pertinent information to their stakeholders. Individuals have no such obligation. Personal information, be it biographical, biological, genealogical, historical, transactional, locational, relational, computational, vocational or reputational, is the stuff that makes up our modern identity. It must be managed responsibly. In fact, to have a secure life and self-determination, individuals have an obligation to themselves to protect their personal information. And institutions should be transparent about what they do with our personal information. Transparency and privacy go hand in hand. Advocating individual privacy and institutional transparency simultaneously is not illogical; it is common sense."
In this particular case, information was posted within the facility where an event was being held with the certain idea that anyone within the facility could see the lists and / or see the participants themselves and could obviously take that information and do with it as they wished. What that does NOT mean is that the organization in charge of that information, or any partner organization, should condone or encourage the public use of that information.
Let's say you are an athlete who desires to try out for the HPP, but you are either already on a non-hp team or have intent and discussions going on with others about getting on a non-hp team. (very common) You may not want the entire word to know that you are trying out for obvious reasons. In addition, with all of the vitriol against HP staff, players, etc. I can see that some may not want that association with the HPP unless they were actually selected. It's unfortunate, but true.
Transparency has more to do with policy, program structure, financials, and general activity of an organization than the names and details of each and every activity the organization runs.
To make the assumption that every combine applicant or participant wants or even agreed to a full disclosure of their identity and participation is bad judgment. Furthermore, to expect and chastise an organization for not revealing these names is further bad judgment.
I also want to clarify my role as some have indicated that I am a "shill" for USA Curling. I have a long history as a player, board member, advisor, announcer, and coach for USA Curling. I am currently not employed by the organization in any way. As the National Training Site and Olympic Training Site, we do have a contractual partnership with USA Curling. So while we do have a valuable stake in the game, we also have a right and a need for organizational transparency from them. Just as our organization (A private non-profit) provides to our customers and guests. But as a service business, we have no right and no cause, outside of some legal reason, to share our customer's documents, processes, or participant information. In fact, our customers, including USA curling, likely expect that we will not share this information unless asked to do so regardless of their decision to make the information publicly available within the facility at the time of the event.
Furthermore, I personally don't always agree with the decisions that USA Curling makes and I am often frustrated by the organization. However, I am a big fan of the changes they have been making in policy and process. I believe in what they are trying to accomplish and know that they have the best intentions in mind. Nobody on the staff, either in the office or on the coaching staff, is some brilliant covert mastermind with the intention of subverting the entire game. Assertions to that effect are just silly. There is no great conspiracy, there is no hidden agenda, there is no "Center of the Universe". These are simply people who love our game just as much as anyone else and are trying desperately to grow it. Much healthy debate has taken place on the "Growth" topic and anyone would be delusional to say that we're not growing. Is it the right method? Will it be sustained? Good questions but until we see a decline, I suspect that TV coverage via the Competitive game will be the path of least resistance. As such, all of the good and the bad of that direction is something we all have to deal with.
In the end, I feel USA Curling as a whole is doing a great job of being transparent in their policy, processes, and programs. Communication is improving but can still get better and more timely. And I, for one, applaud their efforts to discern the difference between transparency and privacy.
Respectfully
John Benton
Director of Curling
Four Seaosns Curling Club
USA Curling Naitonal Training Site
Olympic Training Site
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| 06-03-16 10:52AM |
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SPMFromPCC
Swing Artist
Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 440 |
No comment on the above. Just a bit of team lineup info:
Smitty (Jason Smith) is slotted in at second on Brown's team. Quinn Evenson is apparently on the team as well, though I'm not sure of position.
Glad to see Smitty at a position where his talents can be used to their fullest extent. I always kinda felt like they were being wasted at the lead position.
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| 06-03-16 01:02PM |
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IceMelter
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2009
Location:
Posts: 25 |
Re: Transparency vs. Privacy
quote:
Originally posted by VanillaIce
In the end, I feel USA Curling as a whole is doing a great job of being transparent in their policy, processes, and programs.
I feel like you are trying very hard to explain your reasoning here and I certainly do respect that. The thing is you are missing some if not all of the points that were discussed earlier in the thread.
First and foremost, it was not a closed door tryout. Again - the names were listed in a public restaurant. Anyone in that public building could see through the glass all of the participants.
I applaud your effort, not your logic.
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| 06-03-16 01:39PM |
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mr. lucky
Hitting Paint
Registered: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 142 |
Might as well debate based on fact
As I recall, the participant list and their schedule was posted in the entrance to ice house and in the test room. It was not posted in the bar. The club was closed during the event. The bar was open and filled with hockey folks.
Last edited by mr. lucky on 06-03-16 at 01:59PM
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| 06-03-16 03:01PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Wow. We're still on the secrecy/transparency/Gerry-hates-free-speech thing? I must be missing something because I can't raise much passion about this without the liberal use of Viagra.
I have no problem with Vanilla Ice's post...except for the length. Heck, Geurtzie, if you're going to be Evil then slim down Benton's impersonation of Tolstoy. (that's funny because I put up some really long posts myself)
Mr. Lucky tries (unsuccessfully) to cloud the issue with facts. Alas, the facts don't support his position. He implies that the lists were subtly placed and, absent The Punk's post, those invited to the combine would be forever secret. Such an implication is quite unbelievable. The windows at FSCC are clear glass. Dozens of curlers were there and curlers love to talk curling. Heck, if farming hadn't gotten in the way, I was going to go down and watch. (I had a pretty good idea of who might be there before it took place and wanted to see some people and watch how this combine thing works) If the HPP staff wants to prioritize the privacy of the curlers, they need to REALLY REALLY step up their game.
100 things to talk about (who should be in the HPP...who shouldn't...Junior teams that might form outside to challenge the HPP teams...various lineups...scheduling the teams) and we're talking about this? I love a curling debate more than anyone, but I haven't been less passionate since the great Seeding Debate Of '09.
Ben Tucker (first person in history to call Gerry "evil"...except for the British Columbia curlers who don't like the WCT point system...and BC curlers don't count...never have, never will)
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| 06-03-16 03:30PM |
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mr. lucky
Hitting Paint
Registered: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 142 |
Tuck wanted to come to the combine, not to watch but to protest Phill’s Trump cap. Good thing he didn't make it. Eggs on the ice would have been ugly.
Gerry, could you please remove Tuck’s reference to Viagra?
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| 06-03-16 09:01PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
Re: Transparency vs. Privacy
quote:
Originally posted by VanillaIce
It should be noted that Transparency SHOULD NOT trump privacy.
.....
In this particular case, information was posted within the facility where an event was being held with the certain idea that anyone within the facility could see the lists and / or see the participants themselves and could obviously take that information and do with it as they wished. What that does NOT mean is that the organization in charge of that information, or any partner organization, should condone or encourage the public use of that information.
I will start in saying I have no issue with Gerry's edit. Perfectly within his rights, no issues. I also have no issue with USA curling asking for the edit. I also have no issue with the right to privacy of the athletes, I get that.
But I have a Huge issue with your sermon to us here John Benton. If you and anyone else in charge truly valued privacy, you do not post the list publicly in the building. You post it in more semi-private locations, such as the locker room, some warm room area where some off ice discussion would take place, on the ice itself. If Joe Public in the building could see the list, you did NOTHING to value the privacy of people that you preach to us you were protecting. Mr. Benton, I would like to let you know about something called the internet and social media. I know its kind of new, so let me help you get it. As soon as something becomes available to the public, you should assume that someone in that public will put it on the internet. Once they do that, someone else will see it and share it with more people who will then share it with others. You see how this works? So the people in charge, aka USA Curling, the HPP and/or you, made a decision, potentially unknowingly. As soon soon as you posted a list of names publicly, or had the athletes visible publicly, you need to know that you the people in charge have essentially given the information out into the interwebs, and you lose your right to expect privacy for the people that you want me to be sympathetic for. You messed up. Perhaps others did, but first and foremost, you the people in charge messed up the most
But as I said I get it, the athletes should be allowed their privacy. So I challenge you Mr. Benton, rather than a sermon to us, just stand up here and say, we the people in charge messed up by posting the list publicly, and having athletes visible to the public, and wish we would not have done that. We saw the error in our ways, and tried to fix it, even if too late, by asking Gerry to edit the post. We apologize, but hope that everyone knows the interests of our athletes is most important to us.
If you do that, you come off as sympathetic. Rather you come off as something quite different. Good day sir.
Last edited by curlky on 06-03-16 at 09:04PM
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| 06-03-16 09:36PM |
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VanillaIce
Administrator
Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 154 |
Agreed
Agreed and understood. My apologies for coming off that way.
My primary point was that this issue has nothing to do with organizational transparency. And that there may be legitimate reasons for athlete privacy that others may not have considered.
On the hockey side of our facilit, youth hockey groups hold closed try outs on a regular basis. Doors locked, windows covered, no access. I wouldn't have any problem accommodating a similar request by USA Curling.
But we don't run the events. We simply host then for the customer. How they run the event is up to them and what they do with the information is up to them.
Last edited by VanillaIce on 06-03-16 at 09:38PM
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| 06-03-16 10:04PM |
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mr. lucky
Hitting Paint
Registered: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 142 |
Re: Re: Transparency vs. Privacy
quote:
Originally posted by curlky
I will start in saying I have no issue with Gerry's edit. Perfectly within his rights, no issues. I also have no issue with USA curling asking for the edit. I also have no issue with the right to privacy of the athletes, I get that.
But I have a Huge issue with your sermon to us here John Benton. If you and anyone else in charge truly valued privacy, you do not post the list publicly in the building. You post it in more semi-private locations, such as the locker room, some warm room area where some off ice discussion would take place, on the ice itself. r.
Actually, this is what I was trying to clear up earlier. They were only posted in a semi-private area, and as I said the club was closed to public curling.
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| 06-04-16 02:16PM |
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IMWright
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 206 |
The "privacy" excuse is just a way to flip the argument back onto "us" (those who would like to know who was at the combine) and make people feel "awww, poor HPP, because some "private" information was released", and also the HPP won't have to comment to questions such as, "Why the hell didn't the US Champion make it into the HPP?", since the "list" was "never" released (allegedly).
Pretty easy to see through that.
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| 06-04-16 06:00PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
I'm curious, where does the HPP get its funding from? Is it from the United States Curling Association. The United States Olympic Committee or from a larger governing body?
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| 06-04-16 06:39PM |
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Grat
Hitting Paint
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 107 |
First year it's very open with the USCA publishing the combine rosters including players who dropped out and why. They treated it like football training camp for everyone to see who tried out and who made the team. Without a statement about why they've changed the process, it's easy to assume that they are trying to avoid criticism, even if player privacy is a legit factor based on the reasons John gave..
More importantly, coaches with Trump caps are a clear sign that our HPP is in the wrong hands.
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| 06-04-16 06:50PM |
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Grat
Hitting Paint
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 107 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
I'm curious, where does the HPP get its funding from? Is it from the United States Curling Association. The United States Olympic Committee or from a larger governing body?
The USCA receives funding for the HPP from the USOC. I believe that funds the program in full including HPP staff. The USCA is trying to get more sponsorship dollars, but I don't know if that would go towards the HPP or other programs.
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| 06-04-16 06:58PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Is the USOC ultimately funded privately or through government and therefore taxpayer dollars?
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| 06-04-16 08:12PM |
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ChiefIceMinion
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Nov 2012
Location: In the crawlspace
Posts: 83 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Is the USOC ultimately funded privately or through government and therefore taxpayer dollars?
According to Wikipedia they do not, with the exception of certain Paralympic military programs.
Chief Ice Minion
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| 06-04-16 11:16PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Is the USOC ultimately funded privately or through government and therefore taxpayer dollars?
No direct taxpayer money, but they do benefit from a 501c status and are therefore tax exempt, therefore they get a benefit of roughly 30% of their income courtesy of the US taxpayer...
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| 06-14-16 10:44AM |
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MNIceman
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159 |
quote:
Originally posted by SPMFromPCC
My original post included those athletes who attended the combine but were not invited into the program. Apparently that ruffled some feathers and those names were redacted. It was my hope to garner a little recognition for them and their hard work that might otherwise go unnoticed, but alas.
I would ask whoever was bugged by that to contact me directly. I have nothing to hide.
Does anyone else find it funny that the USCA still has the list of participants from the original combine posted in an article on their site 
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...es-in-Minnesota
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| 06-14-16 10:56AM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote:
Originally posted by MNIceman
Does anyone else find it funny that the USCA still has the list of participants from the original combine posted in an article on their site
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...es-in-Minnesota
I find it hilarious. What is the over/under on it disappearing in the very near future?
__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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| 06-16-16 12:11AM |
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curlinglove
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Bay City, Michigan
Posts: 58 |
That's a great find. I wonder why this year should be any different with combine privacy.
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| 06-16-16 10:27AM |
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SkipsWhoSayNi
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: May 2015
Location:
Posts: 30 |
Probably because no one wanted it out there that they might be bailing on their existing team.
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