Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

A rough outline of the next High Performance Program (HPP) has surfaced. It looks to make 8 men and 8 women semi-professional curlers.

I don't like it. I think it is shortsighted. I think it will destroy our image and our image is everything.

Rick Reilly is the best sportswriter in the nation and he has been ever since Mitch Albom turned to more serious topics. Read what Reilly has to say about curling and why it is his favorite sport in the winter Olympics. Popularity is key and image is everything.

I fear that the trend with our HPP is killing the goose that is laying the golden eggs. I fear that in 8 years we will have maneuvered ourselves from the peak of popularity down to being tied with biathlon.

Have at it. Just looking to organize some thoughtful discussion.

Ben Tucker

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: ottawa
Posts: 14

The US program is going to continue to go for a downward spiral if it doesn't begin to support it's athletes. Further funding these athletes will give them access to ; better coaching, more competitive spiels, better practice equipment and will make it more worth while to take all of those long hours off work. If you look at most of the successful European countries, they heavily fund their top performing teams and so far it's been successful. So why not give this program a go?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

There are 2 very good reasons for not "giving it a go":

1. It's being recommended by you Canadians and reading your condescending posts in our threads is growing wearisome. OK, just slightly kidding there. Any discussion is good.

2. The countries that heavily fund 1 or 2 teams doom their fate to the continued health and dedication of a precious few athletes. That ignores the future. Look beneath the funded teams and you'll see a decisive lack of depth.

3. Most importantly, there is no growth in curling at the nations that have gone to making professional curlers out of a just a few. We are opening new facilities from Phoenix to Manhattan. They are closing what few facilities they do have.

With the probably exception of the Swiss, most European programs suck. You can tell they suck because nobody in their countries care about curling. Even Scotland, The Motherland, has managed to kill all interest in our sport.

Ben Tucker

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86

Interesting story about USOC / USCA relationships. Here's a link http://www.startribune.com/sports/254987261.html

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159

Where can we find this revised plan? First draft called for 5 person teams for the men and women, so 20 people total.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538

You've even drawn the attention of Bob Weeks-and he's in Augusta covering the Masters!

__________________
Jim

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86

quote:

---

Originally posted by tuck
There are 2 very good reasons for not "giving it a go":

2. The countries that heavily fund 1 or 2 teams doom their fate to the continued health and dedication of a precious few athletes. That ignores the future. Look beneath the funded teams and you'll see a decisive lack of depth.

3. Most importantly, there is no growth in curling at the nations that have gone to making professional curlers out of a just a few. We are opening new facilities from Phoenix to Manhattan. They are closing what few facilities they do have.

With the probably exception of the Swiss, most European programs suck. You can tell they suck because nobody in their countries care about curling. Even Scotland, The Motherland, has managed to kill all interest in our sport.

Ben Tucker

---

Last edited by Flat Hat on 04-12-14 at 02:31PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 61

quote:

---

Originally posted by tuck
there is no growth in curling at the nations that have gone to making professional curlers out of a just a few...They are closing what few facilities they do have.

---

Last edited by Frykenstein on 04-12-14 at 10:44PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431

Basic new HP timeline, not set in stone. These are the target dates and certainly can move.

- USOC gets plan end of April
- Response from USOC end of May, this is basically the budget and resources to be provided by USOC
- Select athletes end of June

Again, this is all flexible and dates may change.

JH

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

Frykenstein, if only I knew a competent librarian to help me out. I'm not going to spend a day researching, just look to Scotland and the historic clubs that have closed in the last couple of years despite their recent World and Olympic medals. For you fans of Game Of Thrones, you can count the expansion of dedicated curling ice in Norway and Sweden on Jamie Lanester's right hand.

There hasn't been a change to the HPP outline. They've always planned on 5 players and 2 teams and 2 genders for a total of 20 supported athletes. It was me and me alone that moved the number of Chosen to 16 from 20. I'm not sure of the roles that the fifths will fill.

More later.

Ben Tucker

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

Flat Hat, I'm not sure that your Korean archery analogy is going to hold up. We do seem to agree, however, that the future of the sport will be dominated by the nations with the most dedicated ice.

Perhaps Korean archery medals has increased popularity in that sport in that nation. Curling medals, however, have not increased popularity in the nations with recent success. Why?

"Image" may not be reality, but image has the true importance. Our image as a sport is excellent. My fears remain.

Will the new HPP harm our image? I am pretty sure that it will. Will that harm stop growth a decade from now? I'm not sure, but I'm afraid so. Will Olympic medals counteract the harm? Maybe, but that's not what we are seeing globally. If we harm our image and then fail to medal, what does the future look like?

Ben Tucker

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86

Ben,
I liken Archery with Curling because they are both sports where anyone can make the olympic team through hard work and some luck. Whether growth of curling will be helped by medals or the chance to medal remains to be seen... it seems to take decade(s) to really see the effect.

What I think is clear now, is that it is possible to become a powerhouse in a sport if you have a good program and stick to it long enough.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 61

quote:

---

Originally posted by tuck
Frykenstein, if only I knew a competent librarian to help me out. I'm not going to spend a day researching, just look to Scotland and the historic clubs that have closed in the last couple of years despite their recent World and Olympic medals.

---

Last edited by Frykenstein on 04-13-14 at 11:16PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1441

From my point of view, this is something unfortunate, but it's also something that needs to be done.

There's no evidence that shows that funding competitive players directly causes a decline in grassroots membership. While you are correct that a number of old clubs have closed down in places like Scotland, that's also true for a number of old clubs in Canada. The primary problem Curling has in traditional countries is marketing, not what teams are being funded.

For example, if there's a guy in Phoenix Arizona watching Curling on TV for the first time who decides to try it out, he's not going to the club with the dreams of one day winning nationals or the Olympics.... he's looking at it as a sport he's interested in trying out.

A guy like that wouldn't even be aware of the grassroots tradition of the game, the old playdown structures, etc. He just wants to try out a new sport. He doesn't care if the team on TV is funded or not.

However, if Curling is not on TV, guys like the person in the example above are never going to be exposed to the sport. If curling loses it's TV coverage, the explosive growth the sport has seen in various US markets will start to wither and die.

Given the performance of both the US Men's and Women's teams at the previous few Olympics and World Championships, there is a real danger of the United States not qualifying for future Olympic Games, that would be catastrophic for the sport. It's also ludicrous to think that the current system which has produced those consistently poor results is going to fix the problem.

In short, the US has to ensure it's developing teams that can compete at the international level. Supporting the teams with the best chance of doing so financially is a no brainer in that goal.

Eventually I'd like to see a return to the traditional system, and I think eventually once the national talent pool gets deeper and deeper over the next 10-15 years that will be a possibility. If the US has 3-4 teams at Nationals that would be able to realistically compete for a medal on the international stage, then switch to a more "Canadian style" system.

But until Curling develops to that point, things need to be done differently.

__________________
"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064

Here's the problem with your thought, duct_tape...

The guy in Phoenix who comes across curling during the Olympics (the only time he has a prayer of coming across it) doesn't care if it's Team USA or Team Namibia...he sees a competitive strategy based game that appears accessible (ie "Sh*t, that don't look that hard").

He then hears about the curling club in Phoenix and decides to try it out.

Mission...Accomplished.

Curling's TV Coverage isn't going to decline if the US misses the Olympics one year...in this day and age, every single Winter Olympics Sport is on TV, Covered start to stop. Seriously, this past winter Olympics, I was able to watch 53 hours of *BIATHLON* live....Total Number of US medals....0. Total number expected going in....0. Difference it made to me....0.

If we were a summer sport, then we'd have issue, there's too much in the summer games to get it all on TV (it is all on streaming internet though). The Winter Games aren't that big.

We are the Medium Fish in the Small pond. Figure skating gets bigger ratings (although the Nielson's say that it's ratings went down this year, as opposed to curling's, which, once again, went up). Skiing gets better ratings for the Downhill only. Hockey gets ratings for Team USA games, but that's it.

We're fixing something that ain't broke.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 180

duct_tape is correct. TV spurring the growth and at some point the game may lose that coverage if there is no US participation.
Without TV, we don't have that spurt every 4 yrs.Ourclub, we had October open houses totalling about 50 people. End of Feb, we had 900.
As a result of the last Olympics, membership growth resulted in approximately 90 teams competing in GNCC 5yr and under events this year. Connect the dots:

TV->Open House->Learn to Curl-> league play->5yr and under competition->local bonspiels->playdowns.....

The pool is growing, we just need to hope that the US can stay relevant enough to continue to get the little TV coverage we get.

__________________
JL

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 9

It seems to me that the question of whether or not the WCF efforts to expand curling worldwide is pretty simple for the WCF to answer - how many more curlers are there now as opposed to then? (pick your then, now is now).

People can say that China is a successful curling nation, but the only evidence of that is their medals (http://www.worldcurling.org/rankings-men-and-women). Based on the attendance at their recent world championships, I'd be hard pressed to call their program a success. Yes, they have created some good curlers, mainly by funding good curlers, but they don't have a curling community.

I didn't see many of the Men's games, but the few I did see had very sparse attendance (I think we had move people at the club for the US Jr Nationals!).

Maybe that's the heart of this conversation about bylaws and High Performance, some of us want community and others want medals (and the money to fund medals). I'd like to measure success by the growth of the community, not the colour of the medals, knowing that if you grow the community, the medals will come.

__________________
jim sullivan
granite curling club
seattle, wa

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1441

quote:

---

Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Here's the problem with your thought, duct_tape...

The guy in Phoenix who comes across curling during the Olympics (the only time he has a prayer of coming across it) doesn't care if it's Team USA or Team Namibia...he sees a competitive strategy based game that appears accessible (ie "Sh*t, that don't look that hard").

He then hears about the curling club in Phoenix and decides to try it out.

Mission...Accomplished.

Curling's TV Coverage isn't going to decline if the US misses the Olympics one year...in this day and age, every single Winter Olympics Sport is on TV, Covered start to stop. Seriously, this past winter Olympics, I was able to watch 53 hours of *BIATHLON* live....Total Number of US medals....0. Total number expected going in....0. Difference it made to me....0.

If we were a summer sport, then we'd have issue, there's too much in the summer games to get it all on TV (it is all on streaming internet though). The Winter Games aren't that big.

We are the Medium Fish in the Small pond. Figure skating gets bigger ratings (although the Nielson's say that it's ratings went down this year, as opposed to curling's, which, once again, went up). Skiing gets better ratings for the Downhill only. Hockey gets ratings for Team USA games, but that's it.

We're fixing something that ain't broke.

---

__________________
"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1441

quote:

---

Originally posted by seattlecurler
It seems to me that the question of whether or not the WCF efforts to expand curling worldwide is pretty simple for the WCF to answer - how many more curlers are there now as opposed to then? (pick your then, now is now).

People can say that China is a successful curling nation, but the only evidence of that is their medals (http://www.worldcurling.org/rankings-men-and-women). Based on the attendance at their recent world championships, I'd be hard pressed to call their program a success. Yes, they have created some good curlers, mainly by funding good curlers, but they don't have a curling community.

I didn't see many of the Men's games, but the few I did see had very sparse attendance (I think we had move people at the club for the US Jr Nationals!).

Maybe that's the heart of this conversation about bylaws and High Performance, some of us want community and others want medals (and the money to fund medals). I'd like to measure success by the growth of the community, not the colour of the medals, knowing that if you grow the community, the medals will come.

---

__________________
"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2009
Location:
Posts: 22

quote:

---

Originally posted by duct_tape




If you ever want ESPN to cover the worlds on one of their channels the same way TSN does in Canada, you're going to need US teams present, and competitive in both the Men's and Women's events.


Basically, the US needs to start generating teams who have a shot at winning, and fast. That is critical to the future of the grassroots side of the sport through increased exposure. Funding a few teams is only going to help in that area.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695

I have found the answer to our problem. This essay points out why Canada and the United States should become one country. Who needs a HPP?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ast_122206.html

I believe Mr. Murphy would drop over dead if this ever happened. Reading this article may be enough.

Last edited by biterbar on 04-14-14 at 08:50PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1441

quote:

---

Originally posted by mgulseth



We have had a team at Worlds for as long as ESPN has been around...some were very competitive and some not as much. We could win 10 gold medals in the next 10 years, and guess what? ESPN could care less. We won't be on ESPN anytime soon- not even highlights, so I certainly wouldn't be aiming for that as a goal.

As far as your last point, how can you explain the explosion of new curlers and new clubs in the US, when we haven't performed well at the Worlds and Olympics in the past few years? You say it is so critical that we win win win, otherwise our game is done? Are you saying all of these new people are coming out because of our results in the 2006 Olympics?

---

__________________
"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538

quote:

---

Originally posted by biterbar
I have found the answer to our problem. This essay points out why Canada and the United States should become one country. Who needs a HPP?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ast_122206.html

I believe Mr. Murphy would drop over dead if this ever happened. Reading this article may be enough.

---

__________________
Jim

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064

quote:

---

As the popularity of the sport grows, so will the willingness of networks like ESPN to broadcast more events. Even if it's on something like ESPN 5, it's still additional coverage.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Posts: 99

quote:

---

Originally posted by biterbar
I have found the answer to our problem. This essay points out why Canada and the United States should become one country. Who needs a HPP?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ast_122206.html

I believe Mr. Murphy would drop over dead if this ever happened. Reading this article may be enough.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged