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| 10-28-16 12:32PM |
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PeterDTown
Knee-Slider
Registered: Nov 2012
Location:
Posts: 7 |
Hi ngm,
It was certainly not our intent to misrepresent the WCFs position on this and I do not believe we have done so. We did link the WCF position paper from our original post, but just for full clarity, this is from section 3 from the WCF position on equipment used for domestic or recreational curling. The full release can be viewed here.quote:
Originally posted by WCF
Recognising there are different types of competitions and that participants of widely varying levels of ability may participate in the same events, it may be desirable for organisers to establish “conditions of competition” for their leagues, competitions and events, using what was learned at the Sweeping Summit and taking into account the ‘Spirit of Curling’.
As such, the following may provide some guidance for organisers and individual participants:
- For leagues, competitions or events contested primarily for recreation or fun, or for competitions or events contested primarily by novice or inexperienced curlers, it may not be necessary to limit which sweeping equipment can be used as a condition of competition.
- For leagues, competitions or events where substantial prizes or awards are earned, it may be advisable to require sweeping equipment conforming to WCF specifications be used as a condition of competition.
- In keeping with the ‘Spirit of Curling’, individuals who are elite competitors or very proficient sweepers should consider whether it is ‘fair’ that they use non-conforming equipment in a recreational competition even if the rules allow it.
EDIT: I also want to address the idea that we're attempting to be self serving with this statement. The fact is that we also make WCF certified pads, and to be quite frank if every curler around the world threw out their existing pads and replaced them with WCF certified pads we would likely make enough money from those increased sales to offset the losses we would experience on products that we already have in stock (such as Norway pads). In this light it's actually less self serving for us to suggest that the average club curler does not need to move to WCF certified products, as that was not the WCFs intent.
Beyond that, I can speak to this issue with quite a high level of knowledge that goes beyond what is simply in the WCF release, since I was at the summit and have been in constant communication with the WCF regarding this issue ever since.
Last edited by PeterDTown on 10-28-16 at 12:39PM
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| 10-28-16 02:24PM |
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ngm
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 272 |
quote:
Originally posted by PeterDTown
Hi ngm,
It was certainly not our intent to misrepresent the WCFs position on this and I do not believe we have done so.
I certainly concede that Hanlon's razor could apply and there's a good chance Goldline was merely incorrect about the WCF position or just fumbled their own wording.
I was really mad when I read Goldline statement the first time, until after the first paragraph everything suddenly got so reasonable.
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| 10-28-16 04:13PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlky
I'm going to set teh Over/Under for number of posts until Jamcan finds a way to turn this thread into one about sweeping technique not equipment at 4.5. And I'm going to take the under.
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| 10-29-16 01:22AM |
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On The Nose
Drawmaster
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608 |
quote:
Originally posted by PeterDTown
I think that you may be slightly biased on this issue because of what you have seen in the tennis world. Let me assure you that the new product we are working on is both an innovation and in keeping with the spirit (and specification) of the WCF new rules. Once they are approved you will also see them being preferred by elite curlers and used in top competitions.
I also want to point out that this is not planned obsolescence or anything of the sort, and we're not changing models on an excessively short timeframe. The existing oval head that we've offered has been around for roughly 20 years. The new Air Head is significantly lighter, the pads are going to be cheaper, and pad replacement will be much faster and easier.
The 'Air Head'? Really?
Surely, the target market for your 'Air Head' cannot be intelligent curlers (!)...
Indeed, what I've seen happen with tennis racquets has resulted in a 'bias' - and a fear that the same thing will happen with curling. And I also see definite parallels between what happened with tennis racquets and what is now occurring with curling brooms... When tennis racquets first began being made with materials other than wood and metal, there were basically no rules as to the specifics of the racquet - because, with the built-in limitations of wood and metal, no further rules were thought to be required. But then, with the advancement of technology, and the introduction of different materials, all sorts of bizarre things began to happen with racquets in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The racquet companies called this "innovation"...
I see curling brooms headed down the same path right now. Indeed, you mention that your oval brush pad - a design you shared with Performance and Balance Plus - has been around for 20 years. Wooden tennis racquets were around for over 100 years. And they were all essentially the same shape... and not much separated the different wood models in terms of stiffness, weight, balance, etc. Then along came metal, and then graphite and all the other materials, and the choice of racquets went crazy. And so rules had to be made to control the craziness.
Sound familiar?
Your oval head has been a staple for 2 decades. But in recent years, different shapes and sizes and materials have been introduced... Asham tried something radically different in brush heads a few years ago with their orange dimpled pads (offered in 3 different shapes)... then Hardline came and introduced a completely different shape and size and material... Balance Plus has now introduced a different shape and size of brush head... Shafts have become lighter and lighter over the past 10 years or so...
And so, it is following a very, very similar path to that of tennis racquets, and I am worried that this will continue. Because today, unfortunately, business is dependent upon convincing people - through 'clever' marketing - that their product is significantly 'better' than the competition's product. And this leads to radical designs (called 'innovation' by the marketing 'experts' within each company), which are marketed as 'improvements'... which leads to new models every 2 years, claiming to be 'better' than the previous offering, etc., etc.
This is the direction in which curling brushes are currently going. And I, personally, don't like it, because, as with tennis racquets, it essentially places 'clever' marketing ploys, style, and financial profit above actual substance.
I hope it doesn't happen, but right now, I firmly believe that in about 5 years time, I'll be the one posting "I told you so"...
__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Last edited by On The Nose on 10-29-16 at 01:40AM
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| 10-29-16 08:37AM |
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PeterDTown
Knee-Slider
Registered: Nov 2012
Location:
Posts: 7 |
The flip side to that argument is the simple question as to whether the new racquets are better than the old wooden ones. The bi-annual updates may not present real improvements, but surely there was an improvement when they moved away from the design that was 100 years old?
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| 10-29-16 10:26PM |
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On The Nose
Drawmaster
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608 |
quote:
Originally posted by PeterDTown
The flip side to that argument is the simple question as to whether the new racquets are better than the old wooden ones. The bi-annual updates may not present real improvements, but surely there was an improvement when they moved away from the design that was 100 years old?
Of course, the definition of 'better' differs from person to person... Personally, I use racquets which were designed in about 1990 - which is basically the second generation of graphite/fiberglass frames. They are heavier, more flexible, and far more solid than the great majority of today's racquets.
The racquet companies surely prefer the new materials and technologies, though - not because they produce better racquets, but because they allow for much greater financial profit (convincing weak minded people that they need a new racquet every 2 or 3 years helps greatly with the financial profit, of course).
One thing is certain - the new materials/new technologies/new racquets resulted in very significant changes to the way in which tennis is played. Is the game 'better' because of the new racquets? Personally, I don't think so... there was much more variety and creativity in tennis before the modern racquets came into being. The modern racquets have resulted in a more monotonous, predictable game that relies far more on power than on precision, touch, and creativity.
__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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| 11-01-16 03:29PM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
I am still dumbfounded with this statement. I quote:
''It must be recognized that the WCF certified pad is a very non aggressive product, designed to minimize the ability of elite sweepers to steer a rock. In the hands of the vast majority of recreational curlers it is virtually ineffective as a sweeping device. It can be argued that a recreational curler may as well not sweep as sweep with a WCF certified pad.''
Soon after, Goldline comes out with a new pad using the 420D Oxford nylon or whatever it is called. They flood the Slam on Sportsnet with adds that must cost a fortune. Competitive curlers cannot use it as it is not approved. Recreational curlers, by their own terms, are virtually ineffective when using that fabric. So, who is it for?
I am no marketing genius but I find the name, Air Head, quite appropriate!
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| 11-01-16 03:54PM |
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Posada
Swing Artist
Registered: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 485 |
"The Guy Who Ruined Curling" in The Curling News' February 2016 cover story (which was an expose on how club curlers can easily sweep directionally with now-banned fabric for powerful results) is back with a story on All Those Broomgate Solutions™ in the new November 2016 issue.
He believes the Broomhaha ruckus might not be over. And he believes that yes indeed, yer average club curler will struggle to achieve results with the new sanctioned fabric.
The digital version of the November issue is available now, on a free trial period (attention cheapskates) at the website:
https://thecurlingnews.com/
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| 11-01-16 04:01PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by Itsjustagame
I am still dumbfounded with this statement. I quote:
''It must be recognized that the WCF certified pad is a very non aggressive product, designed to minimize the ability of elite sweepers to steer a rock. In the hands of the vast majority of recreational curlers it is virtually ineffective as a sweeping device. It can be argued that a recreational curler may as well not sweep as sweep with a WCF certified pad.''
Soon after, Goldline comes out with a new pad using the 420D Oxford nylon or whatever it is called. They flood the Slam on Sportsnet with adds that must cost a fortune. Competitive curlers cannot use it as it is not approved. Recreational curlers, by their own terms, are virtually ineffective when using that fabric. So, who is it for?
I am no marketing genius but I find the name, Air Head, quite appropriate!
I'm baffled as well on several levels. I thought the idea of the 420D Oxford cloth is to minimize steering while maintaining the ability to drag rocks. I also think that the statement is quite insulting to many recreational curlers, many of whom are quite excellent sweepers. Pretty much every bonspiel I compete in, any team that has experienced curlers is employing directional sweeping techniques, and they are pretty good at it, as well as just plain dragging rocks. It won't matter what "dusters" sweep with. It could be a kitchen mop and it would be the same. But for quasi-competitive curlers, the "banned" fabrics offer tangible rewards. I have copies of the compliant heads and will have to try them during on of my instructional sessions to see how well they work. I've heard that they are more durable than you might think. (No need to change them so often to get a sharp one, because they start out "dull")
Cheers.
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| 11-02-16 09:10AM |
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dks
Hitting Paint
Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 119 |
When I saw the ads for the Air Head I was quite curious when they would be available for sale. I didn't see them on their website, so couldn't get too many details. Since the approved fabric is deemed ineffective for most curdles is it possible the new Air Head will have an option for a different more effective fabric? Maybe the same fabric used on the Norway pad? If this is not the case, then I think the Air Head sales will be limited to curlers who require approved fabric brushes. Relatively small market I would think,
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| 11-02-16 02:18PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by dks
When I saw the ads for the Air Head I was quite curious when they would be available for sale. I didn't see them on their website, so couldn't get too many details. Since the approved fabric is deemed ineffective for most curdles is it possible the new Air Head will have an option for a different more effective fabric? Maybe the same fabric used on the Norway pad? If this is not the case, then I think the Air Head sales will be limited to curlers who require approved fabric brushes. Relatively small market I would think,
I suspect many curlers will want brooms "like the pros." The prototype I saw is very very light, but the integrated foam/brush head itself, which is quite thin, essentially attached by friction and double-sided sticky tape. Knowing me, I could probably destroy that attachment system in short order. Time will tell if this mechanism actually works. The weight savings, like the IcePad, comes from removing the screw attachment mechanism, and lightening the backplate of the head itself.
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| 11-02-16 02:31PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote:
Originally posted by Posada
"The Guy Who Ruined Curling" in The Curling News' February 2016 cover story (which was an expose on how club curlers can easily sweep directionally with now-banned fabric for powerful results) is back with a story on All Those Broomgate Solutions™ in the new November 2016 issue.
He believes the Broomhaha ruckus might not be over. And he believes that yes indeed, yer average club curler will struggle to achieve results with the new sanctioned fabric.
The digital version of the November issue is available now, on a free trial period (attention cheapskates) at the website:
https://thecurlingnews.com/
Who do they say is the man that ruined curling? Archie? Gushue? or someone else?
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