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08-29-16 03:10AM
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Alice
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Thank you, JamCan for the deliciously funny reminder of Merv.

http://reprints.longform.org/merv-curls-lead

And not to be missed, the last sentence in this story:

http://www.outsideonline.com/191272...infamous-madman

At least, the California Secretary of State and the California tax authorities both made him forfeit his California corporation "Curling International, Corp.". I doubt we'll see him again in my home state.

On the other hand, the broomgate mess... Wonder Fabric Solves All! Trust us! (even without published test results!!) It makes WCF look like con artistes like Merv.

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08-29-16 04:50AM
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On The Nose
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
I don't need to know you personally nose. Your words speak volumes.

You're obviously not a player in the trenches like me. You are, by your own omission, someone who won't do that 'ethically wrong thing'.

Well guess what? Ethically wrong? That's a wholly subjective judgement on your part. You have NO right whatsoever to decide if I'm right or you're right. It's up to history to decide that.

So sit on you throne of moral superiority and pretend you're better than those of us playing the game. The
bottom line is you don't get it.

We agree, believe it or not, that technique is the issue. The difference is I am willing to stand up and show the world they're wrong.

And you aren't.

You, and countless others like you are gutless. Willing to let others stand up and fall for you. While you sit on the sidelines and play referees. You're ultimately pathetic. And do you know why?


Because You're no different than all the players in BC who didn't like what Merv Bodnarchuk did in the 90's but had no courage to stand up to him. Instead, guys like you stood back and let others; Jim Armstrong, myself, Gary Robillard, Keivin Bauer and countless others do your dirty work for you. I know those people. Still do. The difference is now I'm not doing that anymore.

So I'm going to plow. And so is my team. You dont like it? **** you. It's your turn to get off your dias and do something about it. Because guys like me? We're tired of being your slaves. And we're tired of leeches like you.

Get up off your ass and do something yourself you hypocrite.


Heh... I knew it wouldn't be long before you revealed your true delusional blowhard self. You've demonstrated repeatedly that you simply don't possess the capacity to discuss at an honest, mature, intelligent level. We've seen it countless times here - when the going gets tough, and you're painted into a corner by people questioning and/or challenging your questionable 'logic' and self-benefiting 'positions', and revealing your position to be weak and illogical, you resort to your old reliable immature insults and name calling, claiming to 'know' so much about the other person's character (all fabricated to 'support' your agenda), while ignoring the actual topic of the discussion.
It's an old and tired act, at best.

As for directional sweeping being 'ethically wrong' - yes, I believe it is ethically wrong. But, unlike your claim that I have 'no right' to proclaim something to be ethically wrong, I have every right in the world to do so. And so do you. In fact, you yourself also claimed that directional sweeping is unethical in a post of yours a few posts back (while proudly saying that you're going to use directional sweeping anyway, in a bizarrely twisted claim that this will somehow help to get directional sweeping made illegal). Apparently, in your view, only YOU have the right to proclaim something 'unethical' - especially when you follow it up by proudly proclaiming your intention to perform the very action that you claim to be unethical (but, of course, to you this is somehow not hypocrisy! Ha!).

You mention an episode from the 1990s (where you very predictably paint yourself as a 'hero'). I'm somewhat confused, as, judging by the level of maturity you display in many of your posts, you had not yet been born at that time.

Truth is, quite clearly, that it's you who is claiming to be superior to everyone, telling anyone who'll listen to you how YOU are doing so much to 'save curling', that YOU are the only one who's 'doing something about the problem' (what, exactly are you 'doing about it', other than to selfishly use a sweeping method that you consider unethical and bad for the game, simply because it will benefit YOU?), that you are 'standing up and showing the world it is wrong', blah, blah, blah... (feel free to explain how exactly you are 'showing the world it is wrong' - sigh...).

I'm not saying, as your agenda forces you to claim, that I'm better than others who play the game - I'm simply saying that you're wrong about everything you've written in this thread (I've explained why several times already), except for your position that directional sweeping is wrong and should be addressed and made illegal (a position you don't have the backbone to support with actual action, instead going the selfish route and doing what is best for YOU only).
And that you're laughable.

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Last edited by On The Nose on 08-29-16 at 05:28AM

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08-29-16 10:00AM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
The only way you will ever get those teams calling for a technique rule is to beat them at their own game.


Please explain this logic, as I don't understand it, perhaps I am just too dumb. But are you saying that you think that if your team aggressively uses directional sweeping, and somehow manages to be elite teams, then you feel that the obvious reaction of the elite teams will be to say "That's it, we need to eliminate this sweeping? That is the only reason we lost"

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08-29-16 10:40AM
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JustAnotherHack
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Let's get real here guys.

If you want to be competitive, you have to use the same techniques that ever other team is going to use.

Directional sweeping is going to be allowed, and with the new broom heads that's not going to change. So... Jamcan, or any team, despite what they may think about directional sweeping, are going to have to do it in order to keep up with the other teams out there.

I don't have a problem with any team doing it, as it's in the rules. I might squawk if I see a team dumping (that's still a no-no) but, unless they make it obvious, it's going to be a tough thing to stop.

So have at it Jamcan. I hate the sweeping rules as they stand, but if that's the way it is, why not take advantage of them? You're paying your money to play like everyone else and standing on some sort of moral high-ground is idiotic if your goal is to be successful or at least competitive.

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08-29-16 11:01AM
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dugless_zone 13
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Jam's point is you have to do what the elite teams are doing to keep up with them. Now that the WCF has deemed this "wonder fabric" the answer it will be interesting to see how they react when players using Directional sweeping, snowplowing and dumping are still able to manipulate rocks. How will they explain it when their fabric choice should have ended these results. Then maybe they will have to admit it was technique, of course after they have made their bones by having control over "the one fabric to rule them all".

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08-29-16 11:21AM
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Actually, I think they have admitted technique was the issue.

But the powers that be, and the elite curlers that they only seem to be concerned about, made it clear that they did not want to police sweeping mechanics, so here we are.

I do get the point that policing sweeping mechanics could be painful, especially to start, as well as to maintain consistency. But I still think it was a cop-out and that they didn't bother to address the root cause of the issues last season.

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08-29-16 04:02PM
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curlky
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After everything that has happened, I think that everyone agrees that the technique is the main fundamental issue. I think that everyone also agrees that each fabric (including different lengths/type of hair) will enhance the technique to a different degree.

The powers that be could have choosen to regulate technique, equipment, both, or done nothing. Let’s just ignore the nothing option for right now.

I think that everyone believes that in all cases doing one thing is easier than two. Some might add that from a scientific method perspective you should only change one thing at a time, so with those 2 things perhaps rule out doing both (as a starter).

I think that most rational people believe that forcing the same fabric, which has shown to be one that minimizes the effect of the technique, is easy to enforce. Sure you can argue about durability, cost, risk of supply chain fears, whether you should have not done anything with fabric, but everyone should agree that fabric is easy to address. Plus using a certain fabric is not subject to interpretation. You either have the correct fabric or you don’t.

I know that Jamcan has disagreed with the next part of my argument, but most people will agree that regulating technique while in theory seems easy is actually a big task. What angle is allowed and how do you determine that? And once set, then how do you enforce the angle rule? You can say the rule is just no snow plowing, well what is that? Is that 10 degree sweeping? Well if you say you have to sweep more than 10, people aren’t going to sweep 90, they will sweep 11, or 20, or some number that they can reasonably hold without a fault as close to the limit as possible. I believe that everyone wants the rule to be is sweep at 90, and as long as it isn’t obviously a snow plow you are OK. But elite competitors will push the limit on what is OK. Even Jamcan’s own admission shows that to eb true. Plus how do you enforce? Do you add officials, cameras? It might be possible to come up with a rule about angle, but I feel that in a reasonable argument, it is harder to make a rule and enforce it on this topic than on fabric.

So in the end, FOR NOW, they have only addressed fabric and a few easy to enforce rules like no broom switching, no head swaps during games, no sides switches (all of which are super simple to enforce). My guess is that after one year if a problem still exists with the optics of the games, or with the angst amongst competitors, they will look back to see what can be done to help the game in terms of other rules such as sweeping angle/snow plow restricting. In fact I for one will lead the charge for more to be done. But there are certain people on this message board who even if fabric brings the game back to what most find acceptable will be unhappy just because the solution was not what they had hoped with technique. Give this new rule a chance, lets play it out a year and hope it works. And most importantly, let this topic die for a year, or at least die until the game play seems ruined.

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08-29-16 06:47PM
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dugless_zone 13
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Actually curlky, in their infinite wisdom they went at it assbackwards. Yes you change one thing at a time a see what happens but technique was the obvious first step. Changing rules governing technique costs nothing and properly enforced rules may mean no need to change fabrics. The choice to change fabrics first resulted in significant cost to manufacturers and players. I would be interested to find out where manufacturers have to purchase the acceptable material and if the WCF has any connection to the supplier.

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08-29-16 06:57PM
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JustAnotherHack
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But curlky does have a point... it would take a lot of effort and work to police sweeping. And consistency on how the rules are enforced down to the local WCT Cashspiel level would be painful.

I shudder thinking how some teams would self-police sweeping at events where there are no on-ice officials. We get enough crap at times with obvious issues like hog-line violations...

But I think it could have still been done in a graduated manner. And I think the community, even at the elite level, would have worked it out. With only a few fist fights.

But since the elite curlers and the WCF didn't want to deal with mechanics... we've got what we've got.

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08-29-16 08:08PM
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On The Nose
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack
Let's get real here guys.

If you want to be competitive, you have to use the same techniques that ever other team is going to use.

Directional sweeping is going to be allowed, and with the new broom heads that's not going to change. So... Jamcan, or any team, despite what they may think about directional sweeping, are going to have to do it in order to keep up with the other teams out there.

I don't have a problem with any team doing it, as it's in the rules. I might squawk if I see a team dumping (that's still a no-no) but, unless they make it obvious, it's going to be a tough thing to stop.

So have at it Jamcan. I hate the sweeping rules as they stand, but if that's the way it is, why not take advantage of them? You're paying your money to play like everyone else and standing on some sort of moral high-ground is idiotic if your goal is to be successful or at least competitive.


Doing something which one believes is unethical and bad for the game - just because it serves your selfish ends -, is to become part of that very problem. I would think this is evident to everyone.
How many wrongs, exactly, do you believe it takes to make a right?

Change sometimes requires people to take a stand - even if it means paying a personal consequence. Simply going along with a rule with which one is in ethical disagreement - and even taking advantage of it self-servingly - certainly is not a step in the direction of change.
To this point, some people (most of the elite level curlers, 'Jamcan', and others) have made loud noises that directional sweeping is wrong and bad for the game, etc. But it's just noise, nothing else. They're doing nothing of any practical value to bring about change there. Quite the opposite, as they are themselves using the very sweeping techniques which they say are unethical, bad for the game, and which should be outlawed.
And by using this sweeping method, they are giving the governing bodies exactly what they want - which is to have people comply and conform. The more people who use directional sweeping, the more it implies acceptance of it - which is exactly what the governing bodies want, so as to justify their doing nothing to fix the problem.

I don't view having one's words, principles, and actions be consistent as "standing on some sort of moral high ground" at all - I feel that it is completely normal to be thusly consistent. Only when the standard is lowered significantly does such basic consistency between thought, word, and action appear to be on "some sort of moral high ground".

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Last edited by On The Nose on 08-29-16 at 09:21PM

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08-29-16 08:26PM
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On The Nose
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Actually curlky, in their infinite wisdom they went at it assbackwards. Yes you change one thing at a time a see what happens but technique was the obvious first step. Changing rules governing technique costs nothing and properly enforced rules may mean no need to change fabrics. The choice to change fabrics first resulted in significant cost to manufacturers and players.

Especially considering that, at least here in Canada, where arguably most of the high level curling is played, the sweeping rules were changed a few years ago to allow for what has become known as 'directional sweeping'. And so a return to the previous sweeping rules would have been rather simple to do. Granted, it would be more difficult to do that now, because they've allowed it to go too far - but it's still feasible.

quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
I would be interested to find out where manufacturers have to purchase the acceptable material and if the WCF has any connection to the supplier.

Something along those lines ^ would not surprise me.

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"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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08-29-16 09:59PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Actually curlky ... technique was the obvious first step.


I thought technique should have been the first step until I thought about two things.

What exactly is directional sweeping? 89 degrees, 60 degrees, 75 degrees, 30 degrees, 10 degrees, etc. What angle do you currently sweep at even? Do you know?

How to consistently enforce the rule at all levels, clubs to worlds, most of which dont have on ice officials or video review?

So lets say the rule came out that said sweeping must be between 90 and 60 degrees. How would your club enforce this during league play, or at a speil it hosts? Or at a small playdown event again with no on ice officials and video.

But all that being said, here is how it truthfully would play out.

Make a rule about technique only, and people were going to still roll out more advanced fabrics to try to eek out every last bit of effect out of any angle, so in essence the fabric war would still go on. People seem to forget about that.

And conversely, make a rule about fabric only, and people are going to still sweep as close to a snow plow as possible.

So objectively both sides of this argument have flaws, both have pros and cons. So lets just let what has been ruled on stand, hope that it works out, and lets all hope that curling is the better for all of this attention and research.

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08-30-16 10:07AM
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sussman
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky


What exactly is directional sweeping? 89 degrees, 60 degrees, 75 degrees, 30 degrees, 10 degrees, etc. What angle do you currently sweep at even? Do you know?

How to consistently enforce the rule at all levels, clubs to worlds, most of which dont have on ice officials or video review?



I think this is the key. Personally I think you just need to enforce it technologically at the highest levels, and through "spirit of curling" all other times. Cash events are a gray area.

The logic here: if you're crossing the line, you'll not only be exposed at the highest levels, but red-faced too. Think of online Scrabble players who qualify to live tournaments

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09-02-16 05:48PM
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Missing from the whole thread discussion is the fact that fabric HAS to be addressed. Why? Because fabric construction has a very significant impact on the ability to microscratch the ice, and thus affect directional aspects of sweeping. (It also happens to be easier to regulate.) There are directional effects of low angle sweeping, too, just not as strong as high angle sweeping. But different fabrics will give you more or less advantage even if sweeping technique is regulated in a drastic way.

We now have an opportunity to see if fabric regulation at the competitive level has an acceptable impact on the conduct and balance of the game. The chosen fabric apparently has greatly minimized directional ability. Let's see what it actually does.

Bear in mind that even if you sweep at "zero" degrees you are not sweeping perpendicular to the long axis of the sheet, because the rock (and your broom) moves forward as you sweep. So those little scratches will still be aligned in a direction that will enhance or decrease curl to some extent. And if you sweep at "10 degrees" instead of "zero degrees" you will have a little advantage by tilting those scratches a little more down the sheet. Maybe you can sneak in "20 degrees" without having it look obvious, etc. etc. Keeping these little differential advantages at bay will be a futile exercise in refereeing, and nobody like to watch the referees instead of the game. I sincerely doubt that individuals have the motor skills to control sweeping angle within +/- 10 degrees on every stroke anyway. (Nor would one expect that to be true from kinesiology.) So this starts to look like a regulatory morass that is best avoided if practical.

Let's all collect some real performance data for the new brooms and work from there. If the new fabric is feeble enough at microscratching the ice, we may find that further rulemaking is not necessary. Wouldn't that be a great result? (Not to mention a victory for data-based decision making.)

Club and bonspiel play, however, will remain the wild west for a while, I suspect. Club curlers need a durable material to play with that is not too directional. I believe such materials likely exist and should eventually become widely adopted at the recreational level in newly released equipment, and that would help establish a perception of equity in semi-competitive play.

Cheers.

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09-03-16 12:32PM
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Gerry
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All teams using the new heads here at the first event in Oakville and it's going well. Nice to have some calm at a curling event again and everyone on the same playing field.

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09-03-16 05:07PM
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dugless_zone 13
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are they still one person directional sweeping?

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09-03-16 05:15PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
All teams using the new heads here at the first event in Oakville and it's going well. Nice to have some calm at a curling event again and everyone on the same playing field.


So I gather that the new fabric is having the desired effect of reducing the ability to directionally sweep? Everyone will have to re-adjust...

At the Baden Masters, the old rules were in effect, and the broom-swapping and "extra" finish from with-the-curl sweeping was quite evident.

Cheers.

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09-03-16 08:06PM
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
are they still one person directional sweeping?


They're still trying to use the directional sweeping techniques but a good quote from a player was that it gets "frustratingly less results". A good start it seems.

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09-06-16 05:15PM
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On behalf of the skip of JamCan's team...... our third is 55 or is it 56? (either one he still looks older) and our dashing skip turns 50 this year.....yes I know you're all saying it can't be true!

I can guarantee that even if we as a team try to sweep by plowing it's just us being old and resting on the broom.

Lets all relax and enjoy the game.


quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

As I recall, by the midway point last season, pretty much every elite level team was using directional sweeping, and using the most effective legal brush heads for that method (while at the same time whining about how terrible it all is for the integrity of the game, of course).

I do not see how you or the elite players or anyone else choosing to use the directional sweeping method - which, by your own admission often changes bad shots into good shots, and is not good for the game... I fail to see how using this sweeping method will help to eradicate this sweeping method. As I said previously, I believe that using the directional sweeping method is giving the governing bodies exactly what they want, because using the method certainly implies acceptance of the method - and the more usage/acceptance of the method there is, the more 'justified' the governing bodies will feel in doing nothing to eliminate it


Please don't tell me what I'm "quite content" to do or not do. Your experiences with others, whatever they may have been, are in no way related to me, whom you do not know.

While you don't know me, I do know myself quite well... I don't do things which I feel are ethically wrong. What I say and what I do are quite consistent.
I and my team won't be using directional sweeping. While this won't have any effect on the overall issue (in that our not using it won't affect the 'curling world'), my conscience is clear, thanks.

Last edited by hogginsheets on 09-06-16 at 05:23PM

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09-10-16 11:40AM
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Actually what I am more concerned about is what the clubs will do for rules. Many clubs have the single rule that they follow provincial rules. So what is the OCA rule? If it restricts things like using hair brooms what are the clubs going to do, come up with their own version?

As usual CCA is way behind reality, guess they are too concern with securing grants to pay their salaries.

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quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288
Actually what I am more concerned about is what the clubs will do for rules. Many clubs have the single rule that they follow provincial rules.


It'll be interesting to see what each region/national association does... but while reading the summary from the WCF General Assembly, there is a link at the bottom to their position on equipment for recreational curling...

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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288
Actually what I am more concerned about is what the clubs will do for rules. Many clubs have the single rule that they follow provincial rules. So what is the OCA rule? If it restricts things like using hair brooms what are the clubs going to do, come up with their own version?

As usual CCA is way behind reality, guess they are too concern with securing grants to pay their salaries.



As coordinator of one of the leagues at the Vic, I know we will not be forcing members to purchase new broom heads for regular league play. Let them use what the have.
My concern are bonspiel committees and the rulings they make (specifically Quality Vitners Mixed & Hamilton & Districts) forcing regular club curlers to purchase new non durable heads/covers for the 1 or 2 spiels these club curlers enter a year.

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The discussion about these new heads being "non-durable" is a misnomer since the effect the new heads has is more about heating the ice than scratching it.

Because they're not about being sharp, the fabric actually lasts longer than they did last season. Hearing from the teams here this weekend in Oakville, the opinion varies between 2-5 games as to how long they will last, when these teams were changing their pads for every game last season.

The fabric isn't much different than any other fabric used on brushes, just the weave and feel of it is much smoother. This makes the WCF change even better since it should make it easier for teams not getting equipment for free and club curlers able to compete on a more level playing field when it comes to cost.

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https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/e...-152252816.html

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As expected the WCF has gone with the wonder fabric and now we await rubber stamping by the CCA.

http://www.worldcurling.org/aga-2016

Ladies and gentlemen, start your snowplows. Lol.

Oh, one final thing to all you club and recreational curlers: No getting pissy when you're playing league games or Bonspiel event finals and you run up against guys with Blackheads chewing up your pebble and making their stones do barrel rolls just to win a toaster and take the fun out of the game.

Because, after all, there's no sense having one set of rules for everyone when two will do

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