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<smallfont><b><a href=CurlingZone > Chat Forums > General Curling Chat > Rock Talk > Anything official out on broom rules for 2016-17?

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08-21-16 09:12AM
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lolar3288
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Anything official out on broom rules for 2016-17?

I have not heard any official statements in regard to broom rules or sweeping rules for the 2016-17 season. I thought this was to be settled over the summer?

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08-21-16 10:59AM
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World Curling Federation holds their annual meeting where they vote on rules at the beginning of September. The rules will be made official at that point.

So far it looks like one dedicated fabric to competitive play, which all manufacturers are using to produce the brush pads right now.

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08-21-16 06:24PM
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Here's hoping that this new rule does not get passed for the upcoming season.

One thing that is being kept quiet is the ridiculous increased cost this monopolized fabric is about to cost players.

Having done some investigating with suppliers, no one knows how long one of these new heads will last. The best and most honest estimate came from Hardline who feel you'll get between 2-4 games per head. However, this fabric is not waterproof or even water repellent so expect to be changing heads every game if not during a game. You're likely to go through 2-3 heads/spiel if not more.

And pricing ranges from $23-26.00/head with only Hardline currently offering volume purchase discounts to players while Goldline and balance plus do not (repeated calls to Asham just kept going to voice mail. Arnold must be on a long holiday). Perhaps Gerry could talk to his employers about that.

The bottom line is our international governing body is about to vote on making mandatory a fabric that is; untested, with an unknown life span and a virtual, single supplier monopoly-forcing equipment manufacturers to pay whatever they demand and having that cost passed on to us. And don't be mislead, the CCA will rubberstamp any decision the WCF makes.

This won't just impact tour players. This rule is currently aimed at any event/player who participates in an event which leads towards a World or Olympic championship. That translates into juniors, seniors and mixed athletes and depending upon individual schedules this could add thousands, not hundreds, of dollars to a teams annual costs.

It's time to stop calling it Broomgate.

It's now Broomgouge...😠

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Last edited by jamcan on 08-22-16 at 09:53AM

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08-22-16 11:44AM
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You hit it on the head.

It might "fix" the problem at the elite level, but the costs it will pass on to the non-elite competitive curlers is ridiculous.

However, in all fairness, most competitive teams go through multiple broom heads in an event as it is. I'm not sure how much more expensive these new heads are going to be, nor how much more often we are going to have to replace them (compared to the old ones). And given the supply issues with the new fabric, I'm guessing costs may be going up... (it's always nice when a company has a monopoly on supply a product... in this case, the fabric).

My understanding though Jamcan is that, with the new rules, teams will not be allowed to switch brooms or broom heads during a game, only between games.

I know the juniors I'm coaching this year has bumped up our budget for broom heads this year. Hopefully it'll be enough.

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08-22-16 08:38PM
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True JAH most teams carry multiple heads but they would clean, dry and reuse them numerous times. Now we are being put in a position of having to replace those heads, quite possibly before an event is concluded but at minimum it will be on a frequency far more often than before.

For example I used a Transformer Hair Brush head last year and I cleaned it between games and maintained it. It did not shed or fray and, had this ridiculousness not occurred, would have been fine for this season. Now I cannot find a manufacturer who can supply a head in this new fabric so this means purchasing an entire new shaft and multiple heads. And I'm pretty certain I'm not the only person in this situation.

The prices and lifespan I mentioned in the earlier post came from the 3 manufacturers mentioned. I think you can use their information as reliable in terms of cost and life of this new material.

It just seems incredibly bizarre that the wcf would go this route only after they admitted, in a press statement after the broom testing, that sweeping in a non-snowplowing motion dramatically reduced the directional impact on the stone. Implement the wonder fabric if you want, but address the technique as well. The logic of this escapes me. All were doing is saying it's okay to directional sweep as long as you buy our product.

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08-22-16 10:15PM
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dugless_zone 13
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The WCF has to stick with the fabric lie since they put all their eggs in one basket last year to that extent. If they admitted a large part of the problem was actually the technique they lose what little credibility they have left. Don't expect any logical changes to come from their meeting.

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08-23-16 09:24AM
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lolar3288
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It would seem logical to deal with the sweeping direction which would take a lot of advantage out of the fabric issue. Something like, across the face of the rock, perpendicular to the path of travel starting beside the running surface and finishing beyond the running surface....

Please tell me the manufacture of the fabric does not have any European connection, considering all the corruption in Eurosport!!!

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08-23-16 09:51AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
The WCF has to stick with the fabric lie since they put all their eggs in one basket last year to that extent. If they admitted a large part of the problem was actually the technique they lose what little credibility they have left. Don't expect any logical changes to come from their meeting.


If you check their statements published after the summit on their site, the WCF clearly states that a motion across the running surface reduced the amount of directional influence.

They chicken out, of course, by omitting the amount of reduction. But then, that would contradict their preferred stance of putting all the blame on the equipment.

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08-23-16 11:40AM
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What's happening in this weekend's Baden Masters in Switzerland? Is the WCT enforcing the one material rule or is it still a free for all? Sort of important to know as the season is upon us.

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08-23-16 05:33PM
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No official ruling will be made until after its voted on(or hopefully tabled) in late September.

So unless the Baden Masters have implemented their own rules, it's no change.

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08-23-16 08:27PM
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Itsjustagame
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No official ruling until the votes are in from WCF members.

If we are only voting on the fabric issue, what is a certainty is that we will all be back and complaining on this forum no later than early October when directional SWEEPING will still be ruining the game!

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08-23-16 08:42PM
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jamcan
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quote:
Originally posted by Itsjustagame
No official ruling until the votes are in from WCF members.

If we are only voting on the fabric issue, what is a certainty is that we will all be back and complaining on this forum no later than early October when directional SWEEPING will still be ruining the game!



Not my team. We've discussed this and have decided that we are going to plow like no one has ever seen. Any team that attempts to bring it up will be directed to contact the CCA with their concerns.

Bottom line? The few 'elites' who don't want to lose their advantage of directional sweeping are about to find that we non-rich teams can play the same game as them. And if we are being forced to spend money on a monopolized fabric then we are going to use it exactly the way they are. We're not sweeping properly and losing while our opponents plow and beat us.

And I doubt, very much, that we are the only team who will go this route this year.

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08-24-16 02:58PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


Not my team. We've discussed this and have decided that we are going to plow like no one has ever seen. Any team that attempts to bring it up will be directed to contact the CCA with their concerns.



Plow all you want. The WCF material won't do the things you are hoping.

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08-24-16 03:38PM
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Itsjustagame
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quote:
Originally posted by tapfreeze


Plow all you want. The WCF material won't do the things you are hoping.



We would know this to be true if the results of the testing would be released.

If the elite curlers that participated in the testing are still snow plowing this season, I guess we will know the real results of the study and not the ones we are told to blindly believe.

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08-25-16 02:40PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tapfreeze


Plow all you want. The WCF material won't do the things you are hoping.



Wrong. The new material only reduces the effect. By how much? No one knows because we weren't given any numbers by the WCF or NRC.

So the technique, even with the wonder fabric, will still make rocks curl/run straight/stop when they normally wouldn't do so. Turning what should've been a miss into a made shot.

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08-26-16 12:45AM
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Alice
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Will any elite players dare play with a super dirty pad with the new Wonder Fabric? That plus corner sweeping and that teeny-motion sweeping - "It's not snowplowing!" says WCF - would be a scratch fest enabling stone steering.

September 2017 we'll be right back to square one with WCF fiddling with the rules unless corner sweeping and that snowplowing sweeping are banned next month.

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08-26-16 01:28AM
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On The Nose
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


So the technique, even with the wonder fabric, will still make rocks curl/run straight/stop when they normally wouldn't do so. Turning what should've been a miss into a made shot.


And you have made it clear many times that you think this ^ is ethically wrong... but you state that you will be utilizing this method, which you feel is wrong, with your team.

And people wonder why curling is in a confused mess right now?

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08-26-16 08:58AM
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Actually it was another poster who teaches an ethics or philosophy course calling on ethics. I challenged their position as it is within the rules to plow.

I don't personally agree with plowing but, given the alternative that no elites will take the high road, why should anyone else playing competitively against those teams? And, again, it's totally legal under the current rules and blaming the broom is the WCF'S way of endorsing directional sweeping.

Let's call the wonder fabric idea what it truly is:

Suppose you're the world body governing cycling and you're well aware that Lance Armstrong and his heavily sponsored US Postal service team was blood doping. But, they also had high tech bikes giving them an additional advantage because a recent rule change allowed those bikes.

Lance and the boys win a bunch of races and everyone gets up in arms. The world bodys solution is to ban the bike only and while admitting blood doping is a major factor, turn a blind eye because the riders doing the winning say it's too hard to police.

That's the wonder fabric solution in a nutshell. Ban the brooms, let the technique stand. That's why teams like mine will plow this season. Not because we want to. Because we have no choice if we want to win.

Ethical? Probably not. Legal and condoned by those in charge? Yes.

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08-27-16 12:20AM
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On The Nose
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Actually it was another poster who teaches an ethics or philosophy course calling on ethics. I challenged their position as it is within the rules to plow.

I don't personally agree with plowing but, given the alternative that no elites will take the high road, why should anyone else playing competitively against those teams? And, again, it's totally legal under the current rules and blaming the broom is the WCF'S way of endorsing directional sweeping.

Let's call the wonder fabric idea what it truly is:

Suppose you're the world body governing cycling and you're well aware that Lance Armstrong and his heavily sponsored US Postal service team was blood doping. But, they also had high tech bikes giving them an additional advantage because a recent rule change allowed those bikes.

Lance and the boys win a bunch of races and everyone gets up in arms. The world bodys solution is to ban the bike only and while admitting blood doping is a major factor, turn a blind eye because the riders doing the winning say it's too hard to police.

That's the wonder fabric solution in a nutshell. Ban the brooms, let the technique stand. That's why teams like mine will plow this season. Not because we want to. Because we have no choice if we want to win.

Ethical? Probably not. Legal and condoned by those in charge? Yes.


You've written many times that it is the method of sweeping (snowplowing, etc.) which is responsible for the radical effects of thrown rocks - more than it is the fabrics of the broom heads. And you have said that this is a problem. And you have called for the governing bodies to address this problem by changing the rules regarding 'directional sweeping' (snowplowing, etc.).
I was in basic agreement with you about this. Until you stated that you and your team will be "snowplowing like hell this coming season" (or something to that effect). That's where you lost me - because you're saying that you will do something that you consider to be wrong.

The elite players revealed themselves as being absolute hypocrites last season in saying that they very much disagreed with the way that sweeping was being done, and calling for the governing bodies to do something about it... while all the while these same elite curlers were seeking out and using every sweeping advantage possible. It was like they were saying "We think this way of sweeping with these brush heads is very wrong, and bad for the integrity of the game - but we can't control ourselves, so we're sweeping that way. We'll only stop if the governing bodies change the rules to make it illegal. But as long as it's legal, we'll continue to do it at every opportunity. But we hate it and think that it's terrible for the game."
Rather than controlling the sweeping themselves, and following their own supposed convictions and beliefs, they cowardly called for the governing bodies to "do something" to control them. This means that they were either unable or unwilling to control themselves, in the end doing something all season that they claimed to believe is wrong and harmful for the game - and showing zero integrity in the process.

It's blatant hypocrisy - there's no better word for it. Adopting the philosophy of the ends justifying the means is dangerous - because there is very often blatant hypocrisy involved. Last season revealed that the elite players care far more about their own success than they care about the integrity of the game.

It seems that you're adopting the same flawed, self-serving approach.

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08-27-16 11:27AM
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We're not hypocrites Nose, we're fighting fire with fire. You want to take a position of moral superiority? Be my guest. Enjoy getting your ass kicked.

The only hypocrites here are a governing body and group of players who openly admit that technique is big part of the problem but refuse to do anything about it.

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08-27-16 06:41PM
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I have to agree with the right honorable Can, no one wants to do it but by taking the "High road"you are putting yourself in a disadvantaged position. A governing body that cant police its own rules is the ultimate example of useless and should they ignore the problem, then National Associations should impose their own rules. Doing so would put pressure on the World Curling Federation to conform or face becoming a non-entity.

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08-28-16 01:06AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
We're not hypocrites Nose, we're fighting fire with fire. You want to take a position of moral superiority? Be my guest. Enjoy getting your ass kicked.

That's funny - you're not "fighting fire with fire" in any way, shape, or form... what you are doing is taking as much advantage as possible of a rule you claim to be opposed to - and doing it solely for your own self-benefit. How on Earth is this "fighting fire with fire"? All you're doing is giving the governing bodies exactly what they want - the more people who use these questionable sweeping techniques, the more it strengthens the position of the governing bodies to not regulate the techniques.
You are of course being hypocritical. You are claiming that the best thing for the health of curling is to abolish the legality of snowplowing, etc., which turns bad shots into good shots... but by admitting that you and your team will definitely snowplow as much as possible, you're revealing that you don't give a damn about the health of the game - all you care about is winning. You can't have it both ways (not with intelligent people who can see through mere pretty words, at least.)
Anyone can speak words - that's easy - to make oneself sound 'good', or 'responsible' - but, as is well known, actions speak much louder than words.
I can say that I'm the Pope. It doesn't make me the Pope.

quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
The only hypocrites here are a governing body and group of players who openly admit that technique is big part of the problem but refuse to do anything about it.

Well, you are a player who openly admits that technique is a big part of the problem - you've probably been the most 'vocal' person on this message board in support of that position... and what are you doing about it? You're using the very technique that you say is a big problem! And so the only thing you are doing about the problem, practically speaking, is that you are supporting and encouraging the snowplowing, etc. technique by using it yourself (and even bragging about it). How on Earth do you figure that is helping to discourage the snowplowing technique, or to SOLVE the problem that you very much acknowledge exists?

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08-28-16 01:18AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
I have to agree with the right honorable Can, no one wants to do it but by taking the "High road"you are putting yourself in a disadvantaged position. A governing body that cant police its own rules is the ultimate example of useless and should they ignore the problem, then National Associations should impose their own rules. Doing so would put pressure on the World Curling Federation to conform or face becoming a non-entity.

... And if everyone adopted this weak philosophy, nothing would ever improve in life. Because no-one would stand up for what they believe, and make their actions consistent with their words. It's so easy to pass the buck and call on someone else to do something, rather than doing it yourself.
True integrity means suffering the consequences of doing what you feel is right... True integrity means following your principles, not selling out and selfishly doing what is best for yourself personally.

The elite players were and remain in a perfect position to fix this broom nonsense - because they have a lot of power. They are the leaders of the pack - they can set the path - what they do, others will follow. No-one was forcing them to play with the broom heads they played with last season... no-one was forcing them to snowplow, etc. They all did this by absolute choice - while at the same time complaining that it was very wrong, and harming the integrity of the game. What total BS!
If they truly cared about the integrity of the game like they claim, they would have gotten together and not used certain brush heads, and not used certain sweeping methods - rather than doing the ridiculous 'petition' thing (which was nothing more than a poor public relations stunt, designed to make it appear that they truly cared and possessed some integrity), and whining and asking the governing bodies to control them because they can't control themselves.

Granted, it takes more balls to lead by actual example, and have your words and actions be consistent, than it does to merely say words that make you 'sound good'...
When one's actions are in disagreement with their position or their claimed principles, it is, at best, hypocrisy, pure and simple.

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08-28-16 11:59AM
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340

Nose. I understand your point but it's unrealistic. We, sadly, don't live in a black and white world. The only way you will ever get those teams calling for a technique rule is to beat them at their own game.

Why? Because the fallacy here was the WCF believing that a small group of players would do the right thing for the good of the game. It's a nice pipe dream but human history is pretty accurate. Give those in a position of power the chance to make the rules and they rarely do anything for the good of everyone.

They make rules that are good for themselves under the false notion that what's good for them translates into good for all.

This whole debacle came to a head last season because a few teams took up directional sweeping and were better at it than others. Watch what happens when more teams use it this year. The hue and cry from our little elite group will be loud-probably by December.

And before you get all pious, understand this: I've known lots of people that speak like you. Preach the moral high ground. You're not wrong but rarely are folks like you willing to do more than that. You're quite content to sit back on your throne and let others do the dirty work for you. Then, when the smoke clears, you can sit and judge.

Truth is though, the real hypocrites do nothing.

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Last edited by jamcan on 08-28-16 at 06:37PM

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08-28-16 07:43PM
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On The Nose
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608

quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Nose. I understand your point but it's unrealistic. We, sadly, don't live in a black and white world. The only way you will ever get those teams calling for a technique rule is to beat them at their own game.

Why? Because the fallacy here was the WCF believing that a small group of players would do the right thing for the good of the game. It's a nice pipe dream but human history is pretty accurate. Give those in a position of power the chance to make the rules and they rarely do anything for the good of everyone.

They make rules that are good for themselves under the false notion that what's good for them translates into good for all.

This whole debacle came to a head last season because a few teams took up directional sweeping and were better at it than others. Watch what happens when more teams use it this year. The hue and cry from our little elite group will be loud-probably by December.


As I recall, by the midway point last season, pretty much every elite level team was using directional sweeping, and using the most effective legal brush heads for that method (while at the same time whining about how terrible it all is for the integrity of the game, of course).

I do not see how you or the elite players or anyone else choosing to use the directional sweeping method - which, by your own admission often changes bad shots into good shots, and is not good for the game... I fail to see how using this sweeping method will help to eradicate this sweeping method. As I said previously, I believe that using the directional sweeping method is giving the governing bodies exactly what they want, because using the method certainly implies acceptance of the method - and the more usage/acceptance of the method there is, the more 'justified' the governing bodies will feel in doing nothing to eliminate it

quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
And before you get all pious, understand this: I've known lots of people that speak like you. Preach the moral high ground. You're not wrong but rarely are folks like you willing to do more than that. You're quite content to sit back on your throne and let others do the dirty work for you. Then, when the smoke clears, you can sit and judge.

Truth is though, the real hypocrites do nothing.


Please don't tell me what I'm "quite content" to do or not do. Your experiences with others, whatever they may have been, are in no way related to me, whom you do not know.

While you don't know me, I do know myself quite well... I don't do things which I feel are ethically wrong. What I say and what I do are quite consistent.
I and my team won't be using directional sweeping. While this won't have any effect on the overall issue (in that our not using it won't affect the 'curling world'), my conscience is clear, thanks.

__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Last edited by On The Nose on 08-28-16 at 07:51PM

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