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06-04-16 11:26PM
AlanMacNeill is offline Click Here to See the Profile for AlanMacNeill Click here to Send AlanMacNeill a Private Message Find more posts by AlanMacNeill Add AlanMacNeill to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
AlanMacNeill
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Interesting US Rules change inbound...

So...interesting Rules Change proposal passed down to us this week in our Club newsletter...

Stick curling will be allowed in National events not leading to World's/Olympics. Presumably that means Arena and Club Nationals.

Also, in USCA events where it is allowed, hog line change, basically going with the WCF rule (release before foot crosses T line rather then before stone crosses hog line).

To me, it makes sense. I anticipate many disagreeing, but that's the nature of the beast.

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06-05-16 07:03AM
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jhcurl
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Yes, it is for Club and Arena Nationals only. The WCF rule will be used just for those events. The current stick rule (hogline) will not change for local club/bonspiel curling.

The policies will be voted on at the next board meeting in July.

JH

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06-07-16 06:29PM
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dbsdbs
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why not apply the tee line rule to all curling and not just Club and Arena events? Isn't it better for stick curlers wanting to play in those events to play under the same rule in club/bonspiel curling? And then is it not better to have all curlers play under the same rules?

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06-07-16 08:49PM
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AlanMacNeill
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I, for one, intend to use the WCF rules for exactly that reason...but that's just me.

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06-08-16 12:37AM
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rbi
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Can somebody explain the history/reasoning behind the differing rules?

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06-08-16 09:14AM
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AlanMacNeill
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My extremely unofficial understanding based on a couple of conversations with folks who should know is something along these lines:

There is a belief that many, possibly even most, stick curlers have little to no interest in "competitive" curling beyond the bonspiel/local league level, and that for many, maybe even most, of those folks, the extra walk up to the hog is desireable to allow them to deliver adequately and well enough to keep them in the game, which is good.

However, there are some curlers who, despite an inability to perform a slide delivery for physical reasons, would like to test their game at the competitive level, at least to the 2nd level Club Championships level of competition. There is a desire to accommodate those curlers, both for openness reasons (inclusion, expanding the competitive pool, etc) and *potential* legal ones (*), without making a stick so powerful that folks who have the choice choose to use it.

It is undeniable that it will be more difficult for a stick curler to be fully accurate with a shorter "acceleration" area, and with a longer shot to make. It is thought that is a sufficient balancing versus the perceived easier delivery technique and potential added power of shots via a stick.

So, basically, the rationale is a desire to maintain the ability to allow purely recreational stick curlers to be in the game as they have learned, while allowing those with a more competitive streak to challenge themselves at a higher level without unduly unbalancing the game.

(*) (under US law, reasonable accommodations for claimed physical disabilities that do not change the nature of the game must be allowed, and although some folks believe, quite strongly, that a stick is not a "reasonable" accommodation, the question is quite legally unclear and the costs of the lawsuit to litigate a potential challenge are costs that are not desirable to risk taking. This isn't an issue with events that lead to International Competition, as the ADA doesn't apply to competition Internationally, but for purely National level competitions, Federal law does rule)

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07-27-16 06:36PM
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AlanMacNeill
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So July is all but over...

How'd the vote go?

Should I start prepping my team for Club Playdowns now, or are two of us still ineligible?

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07-28-16 08:49AM
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jhcurl
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Board meeting is today. Results will be released by USCA, probably next week.

JH

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07-28-16 08:57AM
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AlanMacNeill
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Ahh, okay then, thank you for the update

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07-29-16 02:46PM
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WarrMachine
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2011
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Well Alan,

Looks like you are still shut out of Clubs based on this press release which also mentions the stick curling change:

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...policy-approved

Dion.

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07-29-16 02:53PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Not surprised...fortunately, I'm used to being considered not even a second class citizen by the USCA

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07-29-16 03:12PM
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WarrMachine
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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USCA just told me issue will be up again for discussion at October meeting.

Will that be soon enough to be enacted for this season I wonder? GNCC Club playdowns are in December.

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07-29-16 03:15PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Completely depends on registration deadlines vs meeting dates and if they decide to make the policy immediate or effective next season.

I'd be interested in knowing why they sent it back...was it discussion re the hog line/t line difference? IN that case, it's legit...but they should still let us in under one set of rules or another.

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08-01-16 11:28AM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Not surprised...fortunately, I'm used to being considered not even a second class citizen by the USCA


You may say second class citizen, but if I were on the board, I would veto the addition until more equipment testing were done and specified. The actual rules about a delivery stick as extremely vague, and as shown by the vague wording of brooms, people will exploit vague. All the rules currently state (from wcf) are:

(iv) The stone must be clearly released from the delivery stick before either foot of the player delivering the stone has reached the tee line at the delivery end. A stone is in play, and considered delivered, when it reaches the hog line at the delivery end.
(v) A delivery stick shall not convey any mechanical advantage other than acting as an extension of the arm/hand.

The term mechanical advantage should be more exact and detailed. How long can a stick be for example, or could it have an optical sight system?

For me, the length of the stick is a huge factor (for non wheel chair curlers). Could a stick be 15 feet long? Could it be 100 feet long? I define a stick being an extension of the arm/hand like this. In a typical delivery form the rock can be no more than an arms length in front of your eyes, and for the typical club curler who does not get low to the ice, the rock is barely a foot in front of your eyes at most. I feel that a stick should keep the rock in that same basic range compared to your eyes. (I use the eyes as a reference point since they have a lot to do with your alignment and aim). All the stick should be allowed to do is keep your relative position, but be standing when you do so. For a lot of people with a standard stick, the rock is 3 to 4 feet in front of your eyes, which provides a mechanical advantage more than just be an extension that allows you to be upright. I honestly think that if they shortened the delivery stick length, then all of the argument that people have against stick curlers would go away. Of course I have not tested that, just a theory.

Anyway, the point is not to debate my idea, or whether stick curlers have advantages or disadvantages. My point is to clarify some rules, do some simple testing, and add some detail to the rules. Once this were cleared up, then I have no issues with stick curlers competing and welcome the challenge. This includes if the sticks that are sold now would be deemed 100% OK.

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08-01-16 02:02PM
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biterbar
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Not surprised...fortunately, I'm used to being considered not even a second class citizen by the USCA


Second class citizen?

I don't begrudge anyone who uses a stick to overcome a physical impairment, to start late in life when the knees are shot or even switch because they can throw better with a stick. I myself may be better with a stick at my age but I prefer to continue with the "normal" delivery because it forces me daily to think about going for that walk, foregoing that second piece of cake, swimming and biking to keep me able to get into the hack and sweep stones for 8 ends.

There are plenty of opportunities for club play, local bonspiels etc. for all curlers to enjoy the game. The fact of the matter is the game of curling is defined by players sliding out of a hack and delivering a stone out of their hand.

Keep the status quo.

__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

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08-01-16 02:23PM
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curlky
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biterbar, i am not going to comment on your opinion, merely give you some information. According to the Americans with Disablity ACT (ADA), an interesting legal argument can be made that the prohibition of stick curlers from Club Nationals or Arena Nationals (Those events that dont lead to worlds) is not allowed. The events that lead to worlds are nto part of the case since the ADA is a US law, and the US law cannot trump an international event.

You can go back and research Casey Martin and how the ADA came into play to allow him to use a golf cart on the PGA tour while all others players had to walk. Research what the ADA requires of sports and having fully able bodied people competing against those with physical or mental conditions.

I'm not saying that the legal challenge would win (though it likely would) but it is a legitimate enough case that USA curling will probably allow stick curlers to avoid the legal battle. I would also assume that things such as allowing the use of a bell for a mute skip would be allowed as well.

Your statement of "There are plenty of opportunities for club play, local bonspiels etc. for all curlers to enjoy the game. The fact of the matter is the game of curling is defined by players sliding out of a hack and delivering a stone out of their hand.Keep the status quo." is what makes stick curlers second class citizens, it is just your personal belief. Where does it say that the game is defined by sliding out? The same rules that dictate the slide also dictate the stick. You can talk about why the stick is fair or not fair, and its advantages and disadvantages, but to simply blow it off like you do in your tone is not acceptable in today's world of tolerance and acceptance.

See what you made me do, i am defending alanmacniel, and thought I would never do that. As I tried to state above, the argument should not be to allow the stick or not. It is going to happen. The argument should be on fixing any rules about sticks like they are now doing with brooms for sweeping.

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08-01-16 02:35PM
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biterbar
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The stone has been "hand delivered" for over 500 years, don't cherry pick the sliding out part alone.

As for my "tone", sorry, but this new touchy feely world of not stating your opinion because it may "offend" someone isn't how I operate. I am not personally disparaging anyone.

Get over yourself, and have some "tolerance and acceptance" for opinions that do not agree with yours.

Oh, wait, I have read enough of your posts to realize that isn't going to happen.

__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

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08-01-16 03:38PM
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curlky
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Have your opinion all you want, that is your right. I cannot stand the touchy feely part of new laws as well. But for this case, I just wanted to let you know that legally it is likely that if a stick curler sued to get into Clubs, Arenas or similar, they would likely win. Likely enough that USAC would likely not contest it in court, as ADA is pretty powerful and the cost to defend it would be high. Personally I would rather stick curlers not be allowed since I feel the stick brings some advantages as used today, but accept it for what it is, and will just learn to deal with it. I will however lobby hard for rules about stick use that I think will level the field and limit what I perceive as their advantages as it pertains to non-wheel chair curlers ( I treat wheel chair curlers separately in my mind). I think that the stick should be a single hand device, not two hands. I feel that the stick should be shorter and would like to see testing on this area, but feel that 30” might be a good number. And I think that if you are to use a stick in these events, then you should always use a stick in your club events, barring any injury change. I have played in a spiel where people have played their first game with traditional delivery then switched to a stick when the ice got slow, or they saw the ice was playing really straight.

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08-01-16 03:54PM
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birvin
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Interesting topic. Reminds me of the case of wheelchair curler Steven Roberts at Evergreen CC a few years ago. Read the article and see video of Steven's delivery here:

http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton...01/post_11.html

I supported the idea then (as now) that curling can't afford to turn people away. We need every curler we can find. If somebody has a passion to play and compete, then we should find a way to break down the barriers.

Steven was maybe too far ahead of his time. He was trying to enter a competition leading to worlds, and part of the argument against was that the rules would need to be changed at the international level first. It's a fair argument, and I see that this proposed stick rule is limited to events like Arena Nats and Club Nats that do not go to the world level.

Bruce.

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08-01-16 04:47PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by birvin
Interesting topic. Reminds me of the case of wheelchair curler Steven Roberts at Evergreen CC a few years ago. Read the article and see video of Steven's delivery here:

http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton...01/post_11.html

I supported the idea then (as now) that curling can't afford to turn people away. We need every curler we can find. If somebody has a passion to play and compete, then we should find a way to break down the barriers.

Steven was maybe too far ahead of his time. He was trying to enter a competition leading to worlds, and part of the argument against was that the rules would need to be changed at the international level first. It's a fair argument, and I see that this proposed stick rule is limited to events like Arena Nats and Club Nats that do not go to the world level.

Bruce.



Bruce,

Out of curiosity, and I assume you are familiar with this since it was your club I believe, why did Steven use his foot rather than just use a stick and deliver out of a wheelchair. Essentially using the wheelchair technique in a fully able bodied game?

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08-01-16 05:00PM
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I remember that he had a few reasons:

Junior Nationals disallowed use of a stick.

He had use of his feet, so he wanted to use them.

He was energized in part by the idea that he had invented a new style of delivery.

He was more effective with the foot delivery. Although, possibly he could have been more effective with a stick had he trained as much with a stick.



Steven also competed with a stick in wheelchair curling competitions. Although, he was disqualified from national-level and international-level wheelchair curling competitions because he possessed too much range-of-motion in his legs.

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08-01-16 09:07PM
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southerncurler
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Curlky. Why do you believe so strongly that the ADA would prevail if a challenge was made? I'm asking because I don't know enough to have an opinion on the ada argument.

My layman's opinion is that stick curling was developed as an enablement for those unable to perform the basic delivery action that is a critical portion of the game. it is pretty clearly a reasonable accommodation however it does change the nature of the game. Your analogy to Casey in golf doesn't hold here as using a golf cart didn't change the basic performance of swinging the club to hit the ball. Would Casey have been able to kick the ball if he had no hands to grip the club with? Of course not, because the fundamental sport is using a club to hit a ball. The fundamental sport of curling is gripping a stone and throwing it.

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08-01-16 09:48PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by southerncurler
Curlky. Why do you believe so strongly that the ADA would prevail if a challenge was made? I'm asking because I don't know enough to have an opinion on the ada argument.


First, I don't think that USAC would spend the money (and it could be a lot) to defend a court case. This would be a PR nightmare for a growing sport as well as a financial hit for a group with very limited funds.

Second, in terms of damage, how would someone being able to use the stick actually harm someone with traditional methods? The events don't have prize money or physical prizes that someone could prove they were wronged if they lost to a stick curler. While many ADA rulings can be surprising, if it went to a jury trial it is hard to side against a stick curler. There is a sentimental factor. But think of it this way. How would you argue to a juror who knew nothing of curling that a person with physical limitations should not be accomodated when really their physical handicap did not take away jobs, prizes or money.

Third, while you can think that a stick gives an advantage, how do you know that? What tests do you have? Compound that with the fact that no one has really proven the physics of curling. A reasonable juror might want to ask this question. "You cant even explain to me how curling works, yet you are convinced that people with a handicap have an advantage even though you have no proof, and again you cant even explain how curling works" You wont win sympathy points with that situation.

Fourth, the rule book specifically describes stick curling and its use. No guidelines are given as to why a stick curler should be excluded other than a simple "because I said so". Going back to as I said above, a juror would see that the rules allow for stick curling, just not for a few events, but OK for others. Again, a hard sell.

As for the Casey Anthony thing, the argument agasint him was that walking 5 miles each day for four days on a very hot golf course in pants, week after week created much physical fatigue, and as a reasonable athlete should know fatigue will effect ones swing. The argument by the PGA was that Anthony would not be subject to that same fatigue, and thus had a physical advantage. The PGA lost this case in that they felt the walking/heat/fatigue was not enough to make the cart an unfair advantage. Not sure if this holds water as an analogy or not, but it does show that you really need to show facts to overcome the ADA suit.

A sport such as track had to accommodate blade running as a result of the Oscar P case. Of course science was necessary to show how long a blade could be to show the mechanical advantage/disadvantage of the blade.

This is my quick analysis of why I think a stick curler would win an ADA case. Could they rule against the stick curlers, obviously. Is it worth the fight? You can be the judge.

As a purely personal feeling, I do believe that stick curling is not the same as tucked delivery curling, and would prefer they stay separate. But as I say that, I have no problem with wheel chair curlers competing in non-wheeled events. I guess I mentally justify this by the fact that wheel chair curlers cont sweep, so maybe that balances it out. But, as I go through a logical argument as I did above, I acknowledge that I think my personal belief is stupid, and I need to change my mind and get over it. But I strongly believe that some testing needs to go into stick delivery to make sure that is is balanced as a skill versus a traditional tuck delivery.

Last edited by curlky on 08-01-16 at 09:54PM

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08-01-16 10:07PM
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southerncurler
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Interesting points though none of them actually evaluate the legal arguments that would be made.

Is there an actual violation of the ADA? Not clear to me at least. Should the USCA proactively change rules to prevent a possible challenge? Not in my mind. If it came up, then don't challenge it and just change the rules then.

Now if the USCA wants to change the rules for another reason, that would be fine with me but to prevent a lawsuit doesn't seem like the right reason.

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08-01-16 10:34PM
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I was addressing what it would take to win a case at the jury level. If you want to read the law, look into the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 or the American's with Disability Act of 1990. Basically people with disabilities are a protected legal class and cannot be discriminated agasint based upon who they are.

Here is where people who are stick curlers face a legal problem Look into the SC case Bragdon v. Abbott (1998). You end up with a few rules, you must have an impariment, must identify the major life activity in which he or she experiences a limitation and must show that the impairment substantially limits the ability to perform a major life activity. The ADA itself states that minor conditions and temporary impairments, such as broken limbs and sprains, are not considered disabilities. SO lets say you just have bad knees and cannot squat, that in itself will not get you to the level of legally disabled. probably anyway.

Assuming you are disabled, then you are left with asking can a reasonable accomodation be made to allow for someone with the disabilty. An unreasonable accommodation would be one that imposes undue financial burdens or fundamentally alters the nature of the privilege or program for example. Many examples of these types of reasonable accommodations would be blind runners run with sighted runners who describe the running path (United States Association of Blind Athletes, n.d.). Blind golfers are given oral instructions by sighted assistants (USGA, 2004). Deaf and hearing-impaired football players receive plays signaled by hand. Major League Baseball granted a one-handed pitcher an exception from the “motionless” rule and allowed him to adjust his grip on the ball behind his back (Bernotas, 1995). Another notable occurrence was the PGA being required to allow Casey Martin to ride in a golf cart during competition (PGA Tour, Inc. v. Martin, 2001).

One other aspect is only accommodations that do not undermine the essence of the athletic competition are likely to be permitted (Stone, 2005). Does Stick curling change the essence of the sport? As I stated in my above post, I dont think so, but a jury would have to decide.

But as member of the USCA, how would you feel about yoru governing body spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to prevent stick curlers from getting to arena or club nationals? Do you feel this is a good use of money?

I'll just stop there for now.

But for the TL-DR folks, most likely, a person with bad knees wont qualify under ADA as disabled, so they are not best to bring the suit. But if you got someone with aq knee replacement or bad back who could get the permanent disability to bring the suit, then most likely they would win an ADA suit to allow for the use of sticks. So once they wont the case, there is a chance that all sticks would simply be allowed in, maybe.

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