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08-02-16 11:50PM
AlanMacNeill is offline Click Here to See the Profile for AlanMacNeill Click here to Send AlanMacNeill a Private Message Find more posts by AlanMacNeill Add AlanMacNeill to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
AlanMacNeill
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The legal argument with the ADA would take several tacks:

1. The USCA has a set of rules and accommodations for curlers with disabilities significant enough to be in a wheelchair. Therefore, they recognize that stick curling is a legitimate accommodation already. Therefore, since nondiscrimination laws and the ADA both say you can't pick and choose what disabilities you will make accommodations for, the door is already open, sticks are in, so they can not close competitions (that do not lead to International play) under the law.

2. Counter to curlky's claim, someone with "Bad knees" would, likely, be adequately disabled to claim an accommodation. There are several reasons for that. Firstly, under the ADA, you don't actually have to prove or disclose your disability, you just have to claim it, due to HIPPA and other laws. I know that sounds weird, but it's true (I've had to deal with this in other worlds where I am responsible for accommodations). Secondly, if the "bad knees" are caused by a codeable medical condition, and they prevent someone from fully participating in an activity, then it *is* definitionally a disability. Just because they can function in the world where they can sit all day doesn't mean they don't have a disability.

3. The "fundamental spirit" of the game is not sliding out of a hack, it is sliding a stone down a sheet of ice towards the house in an attempt to get it closer than the opponent's stone after all members of the team have played their shots. For the first hundreds of years, no one slid at all. The sliding delivery is an advantage to those who do it, not a required component of the game.

4. One of the stated benefits of USCA Membership is access to National Level Competitions. Stick curlers are currently required to pay the same dues, but are not able to have the same benefits. That's a discrimination based on disability.

5. There are reasonable ways to "nerf" (to use a videogame term) a stick delivery such that it is not an advantage someone would want to use if they had the choice. The WCF rules are one reasonable way (a longer shot and a shorter delivery time).

Hell, I, personally, wouldn't object to having to deliver from a non-moving position, similar to how the wheelchair curlers do it. I don't speak for all stick curlers, but all we're asking is for a chance to play and enjoy full benefits of our USCA membership in a tournament at a level above the weekend bonspiel.

And most importantly, as several folks have said, and is absolutely correct, the costs the USCA would incur in defending a lawsuit, even if they ultimately prevailed, are just not worth it. The stick curlers who are disabled get to play and compete. The stick curlers who are using it for convenience are likely not all that dedicated to the game anyhow, so they aren't gonna make it out of Regionals.

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08-03-16 09:41AM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill

2. Counter to curlky's claim, someone with "Bad knees" would, likely, be adequately disabled to claim an accommodation. There are several reasons for that. Firstly, under the ADA, you don't actually have to prove or disclose your disability, you just have to claim it, due to HIPPA and other laws. I know that sounds weird, but it's true (I've had to deal with this in other worlds where I am responsible for accommodations). Secondly, if the "bad knees" are caused by a codeable medical condition, and they prevent someone from fully participating in an activity, then it *is* definitionally a disability. Just because they can function in the world where they can sit all day doesn't mean they don't have a disability.



What you say is not exactly applicable to a legal case. If you wanted to sue to gain this access you would in fact need to prove that you were disabled by the ADA guidelines, otherwise you would not have legal standing, and the case would not be heard. This type of legal action would be relatively cheap for the USCA to pay for. I would guess that if the USCA would lose this motion, then they would drop the case. As I stated in my previous post, the first time this acse were to be heard, it woudl be important that the first person definitely be disabled by ADA. This would allow the case to proceed, and most likley win, or just be agreed to by the USCA. Once the door was open there, then all stick curlers would be able to get in, and have reasonable protection under HIPPA, et al.

Furthermore, if you re-read what I wrote, I used the words probably and likley, so no real reason to counter my claim, rather just offer some additional notes would have been more appropriate.

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08-03-16 01:59PM
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jamcan
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Interesting situation but I think the ruling in the Casey Martin case set a fairly easy precedent for any potential legal accident. And Macneil is correct: there is no rule demanding a sliding delivery. It's not outside the scope of reality that stick and wheelchair athletes could successfully litigate for FULL competitive status at all levels.

Me? As long as reasonable rules are put in place so it's a level playing field, I say let everyone play.

__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson

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08-03-16 02:50PM
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curlky
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jamcam, the Casey Martin ruling is not as obvious as you might think. After that was done (PGA vs Martin) there was another case brought by Ford Olinger (USGA vs Olinger). Olinger sued to use a cart to qualify for the US Open due to his disability (which may have been more severe than Martin's) and Olinger lost the case. So Martin won, then Olinger brought an almost identical suit and lost. Legal precedent is a fickle thing.

But as I stated before, I will agree with your thought "As long as reasonable rules are put in place so it's a level playing field, I say let everyone play." I would like to see some tests done to insure a level field, and after that, I say the more the merrier.

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08-04-16 10:43AM
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AlanMacNeill
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Umm, curlky...you don't understand how US Jurisprudence works...

The Ollinger case is irrelevant to current law, and this is why:

It was decided at an appellate Court level (specifically the US 7th Circuit Court of Appeals), on March 7th, 2000 (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1451918.html ).

The Casey Martin case was decided a the US Supreme Court on May 29th, 2001 (https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/532/661/).

Supreme Court rulings override appellate Court rulings when they conflict. And since the Casey Martin case ruled for Mr. Martin, Ollinger is irrelevant (and was, effectively, reversed when Martin's case was decided).

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08-04-16 02:30PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Umm, curlky...you don't understand how US Jurisprudence works...


Why do you have to always make things personal? Since you opened that can, I suppose it is fair to ask if your career as a number cruncher has given you very clear understanding of how the law works. Right? I was really arguing on your behalf as a stick curler. Then someone asked for some case law as to how the courts might rule in a suit, so I gave that. jamcam made a very short sided argument, so I wanted to let is be known that it again was not to clear. And even though the Supreme court upheld the lower courts ruling in PGA v Martin, the legal fees for both sides to get to that point are astonomical.

I have been very open in saying that these cases are hard to rule on, have used words like probably on many paragraphs. You should also learn that every legal precedent is not exact, as no two cases are exact. One key aspect (not the only aspect but a key aspect as it was necessary to fulfill the test of the ADA law) of the Martin case was the ruling was based upon physical fatigue being part of the game of golf. Ultimately the court ruled that Martin's physical condition even when using a cart caused him fatigue and pain that were equal to or even greater to that of a fully abled bodied person walking the course. This court ruling does not mean that anyone with arthritis in their knee gets access to a cart, because the Martin physical standard might not apply to the. Of course after one case the PGA could just change their rules to avoid further challenges, but this is not what the PGA has done, and it is why you have not seen a flock of golfers with carts on the tour.

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08-04-16 03:10PM
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AlanMacNeill
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*I'm* making things personal? This from the man who has said, repeatedly "I don't think Alan MacNeill should be an official?", presumably based on the fact I don't like how the HPP operated 2 years ago....

I have taken Graduate level courses in American Jurisprudence, and I know how the appellate system works...not to mention the fact that I followed the Casey Martin (and Ollinger) cases closely at the time, as they touched on issues close to me. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm speaking of here.

But, feel free to continue attacking me rather than my point, which is that Ollinger is not relevant law today (and, if you want to be Pedantic, never *was* law, outside of the states comprising the 7th Circuit), so to say, as you did that it was a case that showed that the ADA does not apply, is incorrect.

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08-04-16 04:07PM
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dugless_zone 13
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Which of you are actually a practicing attorney?

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08-04-16 05:10PM
curlky is offline Click Here to See the Profile for curlky Click here to Send curlky a Private Message Find more posts by curlky Add curlky to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
*I'm* making things personal? This from the man who has said, repeatedly "I don't think Alan MacNeill should be an official?", presumably based on the fact I don't like how the HPP operated 2 years ago....


Sometimes I do make things personal. I cant recall 2 years ago exactly, but I believe my statement was that I did not think that someone who was critical of USCA HPP should be an official an an event that involved the HPP as I was concerned about being impartial.

This was a time that I was not being personal, I was offering some case law on a topic that I found interesting, why was the rules change kicked back rather than not approved. As you have made this personal now, I will shut down my attempt to be helpful.

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08-04-16 10:53PM
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jhcurl
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Okay, back to the topic. Is there an advantage to the stick. I know of one from first hand observation. There is a stick on the market that does not require the users to put on the turn. The turn (handle) is created by a mechanical adjustment which can be tuned to add or subtract the amount of rotation. Merely push the rock in a straight line without twisting the stick and the stick imparts the rotation. I would call that a mechanical advantage. I don't know how it works but it does the job.

The other advantage I see is the ability to deliver walking so the balance of a slide delivery is removed. No need to balance on a piece of teflon, merely walk at the target just like walking down the street.

JH
as always just my opinion
pps no legal opinions were harmed in this post ;-)
ppps as a director I am still 50/50 on this issue
pppps feedback directly to me is more respected
ppppps at least the Phightins' are ahead of the Braves

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08-05-16 12:27AM
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VAcurler
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Would throwing from the hack with a stick solve all the issues at hand? Any advantage of not needing to walk would be reduced by the extra distance between release and the ability to judge speed.

The need to be IN the hack would eliminate the need for an official to decide if the foot was at the T/Hog line when the stone was released.

I know of the stick Jeff mentioned, but haven't gotten to see it in action yet.

Just trying to help

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08-05-16 09:28AM
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AlanMacNeill
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A stick that imparts the curl? Yeah, that's cool technically but that's not cool from a game balance perspective, and I concur with JH that's a "mechanical advantage" I think would be a disqualifier for that particular stick.

The only thing a delivery stick should be is a device that extends the arm sufficiently to cover the reach from hand to stone at a reasonable angle for delivery accuracy, and enables the curler to control when they release the stone and what spin they put on the handle at release (which some currently used sticks don't do all that well, IMO...it's kinda sloppy).

Without testing to see how a "No step" delivery performs, I don't know if a "Foot in the hack at delivery" rule would do the trick or not...I think it might be hard to generate sufficient force accurately without at least one step of approach...on the other hand, it is how folks did it from the hack before slides were developed...so with today's better ice, it probably works...I don't know and our ice isn't in yet, so no way to do immediate science to see. I do know that if that's what it takes to be able to have a Championship, I'm all for it.

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Zhen/Piet Final
Gion/Desj (7)
Wasy/Koni Final
Jone/Lain (EE)
Wise/Smit 12  Final
Weag/Eppi (6)
Lott/Lott 12  Final
Bouc/Char (7)
Krev/Math Final
Whit/Whit (6)
M: Aberdeen International Curling Championship
Aberdeen, SCO
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Draw: CF -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 2:45pm GMT
Mouat Final
Shuster (7)
D: WCT Slovakia Mixed Doubles Cup II
Bratislava, SVK
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Draw: CF -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 12:00pm CET
Han/Zou Final
Paul/Paul (7)
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: NWTCA Mixed
Yellowknife, NT
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