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| 09-24-16 04:12PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Mr Can is quite correct, a person employing the one sweeper snowplow directional sweeping technique is well within the rules and since these are the law of the land, well within the spirit of the game as it stands now. Expect an even larger gulf between the good club teams that can use this technique versus lesser teams in the club who lack that ability.
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| 09-24-16 05:12PM |
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dks
Hitting Paint
Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 119 |
The new fabric supposedly does not scratch the ice as previous brush heads. Therefore, one is brushing to reduce friction and therefore 2 brushers should carry a rock further. With that premise in mind the theory that brushing carries a rock further would suggest that 2 sweepers should be able to hold the line better than one since the scratching is no longer a factor. I believe this was put forward by a Curling Canada statement.
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| 09-24-16 05:42PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
It will still scratch the ice, just not to the same extent so you will not get the exaggerated results. Outside of distance sweeping, one sweeper sweeping still makes sense. That and for club and non national events the old fabric is still legal so it will be business as usual for those players.
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| 09-24-16 08:36PM |
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On The Nose
Drawmaster
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Mr Can is quite correct, a person employing the one sweeper snowplow directional sweeping technique is well within the rules and since these are the law of the land, well within the spirit of the game as it stands now. Expect an even larger gulf between the good club teams that can use this technique versus lesser teams in the club who lack that ability.
I don't think that anyone who truly cares about the integrity of the game will agree with you that 'directional sweeping', scratching the ice, thus making bad shots good, etc. is "well within the spirit of the game" - regardless of whether it is technically legal or not.
"The law often allows what honour forbids." - Saurin
__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Last edited by On The Nose on 09-24-16 at 08:57PM
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| 09-24-16 09:09PM |
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Bugman
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Harriston
Posts: 71 |
Jam, I agree with you. I simply do not understand why a sweeping rule thought to be enforceable (and enforced) in Canada for at least 15 years cannot be put into play now.
I was hoping that the new fabric would eliminate all of the dubious stuff, but the cat probably is out of the bag with regard to the most effective way to use one or two sweepers. Of course, the competitive teams will eke out every edge that they can - they have to in order to stay at the vanguard of the game.
It just seems a little - something - for sweepers to be gouging away at the corners of rocks in a Monday night beer league.
When sweeping this year, I will use the exact same style as I adapted in the mid-eighties, when the corner sweeping rules first came into effect.
To whit:
Across the full face of the stone as perpendicular as possible relative to its path. Broom lifted off the ice to the side of this path.
Jim Corrigan
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| 09-24-16 09:32PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by Bugman
... Of course, the competitive teams will eke out every edge that they can - they have to in order to stay at the vanguard of the game.
It just seems a little - something - for sweepers to be gouging away at the corners of rocks in a Monday night beer league...
People emulate. They see someone being successful and want their own piece of that. Be it playdowns, a Bonspiel or club play. It also doesn't matter what sport and people new to curling are the ones most apt to do so.
We're fools if we ignore this simple truth. Our problem is we're allowing this to happen with the very instruments we blamed for the problem and then banned.
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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| 09-24-16 10:23PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
I don't think that anyone who truly cares about the integrity of the game will agree with you that 'directional sweeping', scratching the ice, thus making bad shots good, etc. is "well within the spirit of the game" - regardless of whether it is technically legal or not.
"The law often allows what honour forbids." - Saurin
Sorry nosey, but the game is evolving, whether you like it or not. I don't generally think it is a good thing but it is within the rules and people will adapt. Sliding was once not thought of as good for the game. Its evolution baby, that should make you happy.
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| 09-24-16 11:47PM |
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On The Nose
Drawmaster
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Sorry nosey, but the game is evolving, whether you like it or not. I don't generally think it is a good thing but it is within the rules and people will adapt. Sliding was once not thought of as good for the game. Its evolution baby, that should make you happy.
You have a habit of writing responses which are not relevant to what I've actually written... and which are sometimes not even relevant to what you yourself have written.
Hmmm...
You wrote that directional sweeping, snowplowing, corner sweeping, etc., and the effects that it has - which is often to turn bad shots into successful shots - is "well within the spirit of the game".
I repeat - I do not for a second believe that people who truly care about the integrity of the game would agree that these sweeping methods are in the spirit of the game. Not even close. That's why we've heard so many people complaining about what that type of sweeping has done to the game (including in this Forum, where the huge majority of comments about that sweeping method are criticisms of it by people who want that method of sweeping to be removed from the game - as it was for a long time).
You seem to be confusing "well within the spirit of the game" with 'well within the RULES of the game'. Yes, that method of sweeping is, currently, still within the rules of the game. But the rules of the game are often not in sync with the spirit of the game (this can be said about some rules in every sport).
You won't find many people who respect the integrity of the game who will say that that method of sweeping, and its effects on thrown stones, is in the spirit of the game.
__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Last edited by On The Nose on 09-24-16 at 11:56PM
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| 09-25-16 04:59AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
You should explain what you mean by "spirit of the game" Nose. I one thread, because you don't like the rules that are in place, you say you should be allowed to break those rules ( even though they go against the spirit of the game) and told everyone that clubs need to allow those actions or evolve so that they can get newer and younger people through the doors to save the sport. Yet, rules, again which are in the book, now are not good since as you seem to think make an action or technique "against the spirit of the game", even though the sweeping portion of the game is evolving. Can't have it both ways.
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| 09-25-16 06:30AM |
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On The Nose
Drawmaster
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
You should explain what you mean by "spirit of the game" Nose. I one thread, because you don't like the rules that are in place, you say you should be allowed to break those rules ( even though they go against the spirit of the game) and told everyone that clubs need to allow those actions or evolve so that they can get newer and younger people through the doors to save the sport. Yet, rules, again which are in the book, now are not good since as you seem to think make an action or technique "against the spirit of the game", even though the sweeping portion of the game is evolving. Can't have it both ways.
Now you're trying to make me the topic of discussion, rather than explain why you said that the 'directional sweeping' method is "well within the spirit of the game" just because it's currently legal.
It's far from just me who believes that the 'directional sweeping' method is not in the spirit of the game...
Since you are the one who first mentioned the 'spirit of the game' in this thread - by saying that the 'directional sweeping' method is "well within the spirit of the game" -, it is you who needs to explain what you mean by that. You've evaded explaining a couple of times now...
The 'spirit of the game', as I understand it, is to play the game fairly and with respect. In my opinion, this can be totally accomplished while expressing frustration at one's own missed shots - but not so much by using 'directional sweeping' to make bad shots good. These two subjects are obviously separate issues. The two topics are apples and oranges, and are in no way related... thus it is certainly within reason that one could agree with one rule, and disagree with the other.
The new brush pads, 'directional sweeping', and its effects on the game, are the general topics of this thread. If you wish to further question or challenge the issue of expressing frustration, which has been debated in the past week or so in this Forum - a discussion in which both you and I were involved -, please write something about it in that thread, rather than in this one (although that topic has been pretty much discussed to death already).
__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Last edited by On The Nose on 09-25-16 at 06:46AM
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| 09-25-16 09:34AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
I think you are mistaking respecting the tradition of the game for respecting the spirit of the game. You respect the spirit of the game by playing it by the rules of the game and never knowingly break those rules to gain an advantage or because you feel those rules don't apply to you. Last year curlers developed a new sweeping technique that at first had the traditionalists up in arms. Over the season the stretched the boundaries of the rules which had many people complaining that they were contraveNing the rules of sweeping. The governing bodies over the summer clarified the rules and in some people's estimation weaker them. Still those are now the rules of competition so employing them is well within the spirit of the game and people would be stupid not to follow them. When people first started sliding people felt it went against the spirit of the game yet we all slide. Push brooms were thought of as against the spirit of the game and now we all use them.
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| 09-25-16 02:11PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
I think you are mistaking respecting the tradition of the game for respecting the spirit of the game. You respect the spirit of the game by playing it by the rules of the game and never knowingly break those rules to gain an advantage or because you feel those rules don't apply to you. Last year curlers developed a new sweeping technique that at first had the traditionalists up in arms. Over the season the stretched the boundaries of the rules which had many people complaining that they were contraveNing the rules of sweeping. The governing bodies over the summer clarified the rules and in some people's estimation weaker them. Still those are now the rules of competition so employing them is well within the spirit of the game and people would be stupid not to follow them. When people first started sliding people felt it went against the spirit of the game yet we all slide. Push brooms were thought of as against the spirit of the game and now we all use them.
I wholeheartedly agree with you about playing within the spirit of the game.
But, and this is a crucial element that's ignored whenever Broomgate is discussed; we've been down this road before with brushes.
As Bugman correctly pointed out, we had a very effective rule in place for almost 20 years that deterred people from the basic technique of directional sweeping: snowplowing.
And while technology has evolved, we did have synthetic brushes back then: Hammers, Brownies and yes, Bugmans beloved Downer Disc.
We have, sadly ignored the lesson of the past and are now repeating the mistakes of the 1980's. Georges Santiago is rolling in his Spanish grave somewhere.
By all means address and regulate the technology so it doesn't get as ridiculous as last season. But don't ignore what got us here. Because directional sweeping is not a broom. It's the manner in which its being used.
And I really wish Bugman would get a new brush...that DD leaves carpet fiber everywhere on Vernons ice.
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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| 09-25-16 02:40PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
I do agree with you there. But as long as you are.playing within the rules of the game you are.respecting the spirit of the game. Unfortunately the powers that be took the easy way out by choosing to loosen the sweeping rules as opposed to tightening enforcement of the rules that were in place. That being said I'm going to sweep within the rules but not handicap myself in some misguided attempt to appear holier than everyone else. I know my opponents are going to play to the rules and to do any less puts me at a disadvantage.
Last edited by dugless_zone 13 on 09-25-16 at 03:34PM
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| 09-25-16 10:01PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
I'm with you on that. And there is no doubt in my mind, after employing it last weekend in Cloverdale, that you can still exert more control on the rock than if you were sweeping according to the old, across the stone rule.
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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| 09-26-16 04:16PM |
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Netz
Swing Artist
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 222 |
I could not believe it when the new rule (moratorium) addressed only the fabric part of the equation, I do not believe you have seen the end of the sweeping controversy from last year.
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| 09-26-16 08:37PM |
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drawthepin
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 73 |
quote:
Originally posted by Netz
I could not believe it when the new rule (moratorium) addressed only the fabric part of the equation, I do not believe you have seen the end of the sweeping controversy from last year.
What's not to believe? Five weeks into the new season and there is no issue. Sweeping is doing what it should do, taking the rock a little further and keeping it a little straighter. Technique is having minimum to no effect on the shot. They confirmed at the sweeping summit that no matter how you swept, you could affect the throw with the water proof coated fabrics and it seems it does not happen with the new fabric.
Seems to me the issue is over and the continued discussion is pointless.
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| 09-27-16 08:41AM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote:
Originally posted by drawthepin
What's not to believe? Five weeks into the new season and there is no issue. Sweeping is doing what it should do, taking the rock a little further and keeping it a little straighter. Technique is having minimum to no effect on the shot. They confirmed at the sweeping summit that no matter how you swept, you could affect the throw with the water proof coated fabrics and it seems it does not happen with the new fabric.
Seems to me the issue is over and the continued discussion is pointless.
At the elite level.
Joysticking will be alive and well at lower levels because the heads are still available, inserts are available, hair brooms are available and there is no restriction on how you sweep.
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| 09-27-16 10:20AM |
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ngm
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 272 |
quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
At the elite level.
Joysticking will be alive and well at lower levels because the heads are still available, inserts are available, hair brooms are available and there is no restriction on how you sweep.
Maybe for another season at most.
In the meantime any competition, club, or league, is free to adopt brush head rules, just like many of them did last year.
The point is there are likely hundreds of thousands of curlers with non-complying brushes but who gain no unfair advantage through lack of ability and interest to do so, and play in competitions where nobody cares. Seems pointless to have them all buy new equipment just to continue to not sweep very effectively.
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| 09-27-16 11:15AM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote:
Originally posted by ngm
Maybe for another season at most.
In the meantime any competition, club, or league, is free to adopt brush head rules, just like many of them did last year.
The point is there are likely hundreds of thousands of curlers with non-complying brushes but who gain no unfair advantage through lack of ability and interest to do so, and play in competitions where nobody cares. Seems pointless to have them all buy new equipment just to continue to not sweep very effectively.
A vast majority I have no problem using the brushes or even the techniques because they are ineffective. But there are still teams not at the elite level who utilized it quite effectively last year. Many are younger curlers or those playing down at lower levels than WCF events.
Why for another season at most? Do you think the manufacturers will discontinue the production of WCF non-conforming brooms or that the sweeping rules will be changed?
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"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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| 09-27-16 04:16PM |
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ngm
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 272 |
quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
A vast majority I have no problem using the brushes or even the techniques because they are ineffective. But there are still teams not at the elite level who utilized it quite effectively last year. Many are younger curlers or those playing down at lower levels than WCF events.
Why for another season at most? Do you think the manufacturers will discontinue the production of WCF non-conforming brooms or that the sweeping rules will be changed?
I don't think the sweeping rules will be changed.
I think one season will be long enough for any non-elite competition to decide if they want to go to the WCF rules or not, and when.
Look at the OCA events, for example. This season, things going to a world championship have to fully comply. Event going to a national championship only have to comply at the provincial final. Other events don't have to comply. But, although it doesn't say it outright, by 2017-2018 the compliance is going to get more strict, if not fully compliant.
I don't know the business of curling equipment enough to speculate on that side of things.
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| 09-28-16 02:52PM |
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dks
Hitting Paint
Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 119 |
I suspect the broom manufacturers will be drawing down existing inventory and not make anymore non compliant heads. The last thing they want is to be stuck with product nobody will buy. In Curling Canada's statement I think they infer that next year non compliant brushes will not be allowed.
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| 09-28-16 03:18PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
quote:
Originally posted by dks
I suspect the broom manufacturers will be drawing down existing inventory and not make anymore non compliant heads. The last thing they want is to be stuck with product nobody will buy. In Curling Canada's statement I think they infer that next year non compliant brushes will not be allowed.
I think they will continue. Club curlers and non-competitive players want heads or head covers that last, are cleanable and don't need to to be replaced after a couple of weeks. I think that was the point of manufacturers using the fabrics they did. All the other stuff was incidental.
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| 09-28-16 06:32PM |
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drawthepin
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 73 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
I think they will continue. Club curlers and non-competitive players want heads or head covers that last, are cleanable and don't need to to be replaced after a couple of weeks. I think that was the point of manufacturers using the fabrics they did. All the other stuff was incidental.
Turns out that the new heads are lasting just as long as the old heads. I to think you are going to see the old stock dwindle and not be replaced.
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| 09-28-16 10:11PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by drawthepin
Turns out that the new heads are lasting just as long as the old heads. I to think you are going to see the old stock dwindle and not be replaced.
I sure hope that's the case as all the manufacturer's were talking 5 games max-although my first Maxim cover is looking pretty worn after 6 games at 3rd.
But, just to throw you all sideways, here's the start of my long winded take on this whole mess.
https://therockstopshere.wordpress.com/
Aw, c'mon, don't look surprised. lol.
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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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