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draway8
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2014
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Posts: 88

Challenge Round

crickets chirping...

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Old Post 01-06-17 11:50PM
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TNH
Hitting Paint

Registered: May 2011
Location:
Posts: 122

Well, they are streaming sheet C of the men's so you can check out how your friends are doing.

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...Challenge-Round

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Old Post 01-07-17 12:08AM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2485

Interesting times. 1 discretionary pick for each gender remains for the HPP staff.

Much will depend on the outcome of National Juniors. Should Clawson win the Boys (they have to be considered the favorite to win), World Juniors in Korea will prevent them from playing in the Seattle Men's Nationals. That would open 2 spots...or maybe just one...or maybe none. The HPP could go many different ways. One thing to note: They did not playoff the C Qualifier losing teams (Alex L. and Brandon C.).

So what would you do if Clawson wins Juniors? What would you do if Clawson doesn't win Juniors?

On the Women's side for Seattle, to whom would you give the discretionary pick? Anyone? Nobody? I suspect they'll wait until National Juniors is over. I could easily see them awarding the last spot to whomever gets second place...especially if that is the Anna Marie Dubberstein team.

Ben Tucker
North Dakota

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Old Post 01-08-17 08:13PM
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AlanMacNeill
Drawmaster

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 848

I'd expect the HPP staff to give the slots to the younger rinks on both sides, since their stated purpose is to encourage growth of teams that could potentially make a difference in the international scene , a younger team has a larger window than an older team.

It's been a real treat watching the Clawson rink from close outside (I.E. I'm from their club, but I'm not involved with their team in any way other than occasionally encouraging "Go get em guys" statements in the warm room and watching some of the drills they do on their own when they are home (which isn't often this time of year)

I look forward to the rest of thier season, and hope they manage to make the transition from "Top Line Junior Team" to "Top Line Team, period"...it'll be interesting to see what the HPP does with them...there really isn't enough space in the Open Progrsm for everyone...a tough nut to crack.

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Old Post 01-09-17 09:04AM
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biterbar
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 473

If Clawson somehow loses, and they go to Nationals I would also take Leichter or Corbett. Take them both if Clawson's spot is open. As for the ladies, I think Dubberstein is the correct pick, not sure who else I would pick after the Challenge round.

A big shout out to the Sobering team who lost those first two games and then ran the table for the last spot. That is a tough spot to be in, good for you guys!

Seniors starts next week, I have a list of the teams, I will start a thread and give my two cents, maybe Tuck can set some odds. I went broke on my last attempt.

__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

Last edited by biterbar on 01-09-17 at 12:17PM

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Old Post 01-09-17 09:16AM
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curlinglove
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Bay City, Michigan
Posts: 30

Clawson already qualified for the nationals. What happens if they are the team to win junior nationals? How does USCA fill that spot in addition to the HPP pick?

Last edited by curlinglove on 01-09-17 at 12:16PM

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Old Post 01-09-17 11:02AM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2485

Yes, Curlinglove. The likelihood Clawson having a conflickt with Men's Nationals and World Juniors is of one of the main points.

While I respect Team Corbett and Team Leichter going on their own dime and I respect both teams for getting quality wins last year, I'm not too jazzed about teams that failed to earn a spot in a Triple Knockout with a small field.

I'd rather see spots go to Junior silver and bronze medalists. Sending Juniors, however, comes with its own set of problems. Very late notice...expenses...kids falling behind in life because of week-long events...etc...

I guess I'd rather see Corbett and Leichter invited rather than the spots go unfulfilled. What's the harm in inviting them? A tougher question is, "Who gets the spot available immediately and who has to wait until Clawson wins Juniors?"

At least Corbett and Leichter have some WCT points. The Women's side is a far different questions.

The C side teams in Women's have practically no WCT points. All the teams that spent significant time and money made the field already. In the case of Women's, I'd certainly invite Juniors.

Leaving the spots blank is an option. Does Nationals lose some prestige from letting in unqualified teams? Perhaps, but depth in talent isn't something that happens by accident. It needs to be encouraged.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 01-09-17 12:58PM
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Alice
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Registered: Feb 2012
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Did all of the current adult and junior HPP curlers qualify directly or by playdowns for Nationals? If any didn't I'd expect HPP staff to give them the last National slots or give the slots to junior medalists - if HPP "likes" them. I also expect some odd last minute 5th player slots for HPP favorites.

The challenege rounds were almost sign-up and go giving not much depth to the field to pick alternates for Nationals - but now the junior championships are musical chairs for slots to HPP and adult Nationals.

The HPP's strategy seems to be get yourself into HPP, especially via Juniors, and forget forever any building of adult elite teams from one club much less one region with non-HPP coaching to allow instead HPP staff to mix and match. At this rate, there will be no challenge rounds anymore for any Nationals, just OOM points and HPP staff selections for who goes to Worlds and Olympics. It wouldn't surprise me if Nationals becomes only an HPP training camp selection procress.

Last edited by Alice on 01-09-17 at 04:10PM

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Old Post 01-09-17 04:07PM
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misty1
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2011
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i know there's a possibility that nationals could just be a formality . the top OOM points team will get sent to worlds.. as it stands now where are we at?

the women should be tight . given whats gone on on tour id imagine roth and christensen would be way ahead of everyone else and it should be between the 2 of them as far as who goes.

with the men mccormick won 4 events this year but none of them had very strong fields and when they came in to a field with the top team,s in the world they appeared way out of their depth, which should be concerning. they've been the most consistent mens team for the us on tour though. then you have shuster who's been disappointing this season up until this past week. so id imagine, again its a 2 horse race between shuster and mccormick with mccormick being slightly ahead or behind and then brown would be in not to distant 3rd.

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Old Post 01-09-17 04:27PM
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TNH
Hitting Paint

Registered: May 2011
Location:
Posts: 122

Oh my, must everything be a political beauty contest with the USCA? This is sports, complete with scores and standings and results. This should be simple. The next two best menís and womenís teams from the challenge round should be offered the opportunity to play in nationals. They earned it.

Even the thought of choosing who is worthy by committee is ridiculous.

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Old Post 01-09-17 06:04PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2485

Oh, Misty, don't make me do math. I hate math.

Actually, Craig Brown is quietly having a very good year. Even with Face Shuster's big points weekend in the Slam, Craigy Brownie still has a slight 10 point lead.

All the major teams are scheduled to be in Arizona's shootout, so the point math continues.

Roth has a lead over Sinclair and Christensen.

I imagine Heater McCormick and Jamie Sinclair will be getting gift points for the upcoming Continental Cup. (I'm not opposed to gift points. If we want such events to thrive while the new curling world is run by points, then we must have gift points)

As of now, it looks like Heater will have to finish off the podium in Seattle if any other team wants to go to Worlds. The gals' side might come down to just Roth and Sinclair with a mathematical possibility to make it to Worlds.

Others chart this crap far closer than I, but are hesitant to post. If I hear from one of them with solid numbers, I'll throw the scenarios up here.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 01-09-17 06:11PM
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misty1
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 4604

quote:
Originally posted by tuck
Oh, Misty, don't make me do math. I hate math.

Actually, Craig Brown is quietly having a very good year. Even with Face Shuster's big points weekend in the Slam, Craigy Brownie still has a slight 10 point lead.

All the major teams are scheduled to be in Arizona's shootout, so the point math continues.

Roth has a lead over Sinclair and Christensen.

I imagine Heater McCormick and Jamie Sinclair will be getting gift points for the upcoming Continental Cup. (I'm not opposed to gift points. If we want such events to thrive while the new curling world is run by points, then we must have gift points)

As of now, it looks like Heater will have to finish off the podium in Seattle if any other team wants to go to Worlds. The gals' side might come down to just Roth and Sinclair with a mathematical possibility to make it to Worlds.

Others chart this crap far closer than I, but are hesitant to post. If I hear from one of them with solid numbers, I'll throw the scenarios up here.

Ben Tucker



how is sinclair even in the mix? she hasnt done much this year and christensen has won twice. i would have thought christensen was ahead of sinclair

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Old Post 01-09-17 07:59PM
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southerncurler
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 47

^^ how does the continental cup have any OOM points up for grabs? This may be blasphemy but there might be a problem with the OOM PROCESS if points are up for grabs at what amounts to exhibition events with no team winner.

OOM points should qualify your team to represent the Stars and Strips, not determine it.

Last edited by southerncurler on 01-10-17 at 06:40AM

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Old Post 01-10-17 12:57AM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2485

Team Sinclair is having a very good year. They get points every weekend they play. The Dekalb in Morris and the Fall Classic in Oakville both had a lot of points and they did well.

Sending the C Qualifier finalists (Leichter and Corbett) isn't an easy answer for the Men's. There is one spot available right now, but the second spot is dependent on Clawson winning Junior Nationals. So which team do you give the guaranteed spot and which team has to wait? Leichter has more points.

WHY WERE NO POINTS AVAILABLE FOR THE CHALLENGE ROUND?

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 01-10-17 08:30AM
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misty1
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 4604

quote:
Originally posted by tuck
Team Sinclair is having a very good year. They get points every weekend they play. The Dekalb in Morris and the Fall Classic in Oakville both had a lot of points and they did well.

Sending the C Qualifier finalists (Leichter and Corbett) isn't an easy answer for the Men's. There is one spot available right now, but the second spot is dependent on Clawson winning Junior Nationals. So which team do you give the guaranteed spot and which team has to wait? Leichter has more points.

WHY WERE NO POINTS AVAILABLE FOR THE CHALLENGE ROUND?

Ben Tucker



so they have. but when you look at what they've done it appears that, with the exception of dekalb , which had a strong field all the events they have qualified in have been weeker events. for the most part when they play in deeper fields they fail to qualify.

so much like mccormick , while they've qualified in several events all of them have been weeker fields and then they fell when they played higher level teams.

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Old Post 01-10-17 08:56AM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2485

Hey! They awarded points for the Challenge Round! Welcome to the leaderboard, Mr. Sobering! (just kidding there...they already had points)

Sorry, Southern Curler, but it doesn't look like anyone wants to take the bait. Having points for invitation/demonstration events has been debated many, many times before. The Continental Cup isn't curling, but it's good for curling. If you want it to exist, you need to offer points. If you don't, you won't get any good teams playing. Ends justify means? I'm sorry to be the messenger.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 01-11-17 01:24AM
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southerncurler
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 47

How are points awarded for the continental cup? The continental cup doesn't meet either the tour cashspiel or special events criteria listed in the calculation document on worldcurl.com?

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Old Post 01-11-17 05:54PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2485

I don't know how gift points are allotted. WHY HAVEN'T TEAMS BEEN AWARDED GIFT POINTS FOR CURLING NIGHT IN AMERICA? If Russia and China get points for their little invites, why don't we?

Misty, I don't remember the formula for getting to Worlds from my own nation. I probably blocked it out mentally because I hate that we use a formula.

I do seem to remember that if your team is in the WCT Top 25 on the year to date standings, it's just Win And Go.

Heater sits in 19th with C-Cup gift points this weekend and maybe Arizona points coming. Brownie is on the bubble in 26th place with Arizona needed and nobody passing him. Face is in 29th and needs a dozen points. Brady is in 32nd and probably needs to win in Pheonix (I literally BEGGED him to go to Perth for some cheap Euro points). Birr (64), Fenson (74), Dropkin (80) and others seem to a national gold medal and a miracle.

God bless any team that goes to Seattle without a chance to advance to Worlds. I hope they get gold and insert themselves into the Olympic Trials discussion.

In Women's, Nina sits in 21st (thanks to a ton of points from the US Open...was the field THAT good?). She has mega-Euro-points available this weekend in Bern. Cory also is in Bern and needing points (being HPP does tip the playing field in your favor). Cory is in 34th and needs a pile of points to jump 9 spots. Jamie is in 29th and could really use a couple dozen points.

IF Nina strolls into Seattle with a significant advantage in points over Cory and Jamie, we'll have to rework the system. Most of Nina's points come from getting second in Blaine and first in Duluth. Good curling...no doubt...but not something that should lock up Worlds for her.

Conversely, if Face wins Nationals and doesn't go to Worlds, we'll have to rethink the system. If he qualifies in a SLAM and gets the gold...he should go to Worlds.

Whatever. It is what it is. I don't remember how much the USA Nationals gets for gold, silver and bronze.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 01-12-17 03:34PM
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Alice
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 279

Tuck,

Does it really matter who has what points as long as HPP can rejigger their "rules" at the end of each season for who goes to Worlds and has any "discretion" for who gets Nationals and Olympic Trials slots? Icing on the cake of this pick-em-off-ice gambling numbers system is all these invitational made-for-TV events with invites overseen by the national programs' masters.

Alice

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Old Post 01-13-17 02:10PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2485

Alice,

Yes, the game is rigged for those inside the HPP.

Tuck

PS While unfairness offends all (especially Americans), we now face international curlers who are full-time pros and semi-pros. Even the Junior ranks of some nations have reached that level. So the current Decision Makers have elected to pick a few dozen eggs and put them all in one basket...and now have given that basket every advantage they can afford. Do I like it? No. Does it have logic behind it? Yes. It is too easy to rail against the current system. Come up with a better plan to beat the pros.

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Old Post 01-13-17 04:04PM
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SPMFromPCC
Swing Artist

Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 432

Or just play more, get better, and beat the pros.

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Old Post 01-13-17 05:45PM
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fanofcurling
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 69

quote:
Originally posted by SPMFromPCC
Or just play more, get better, and beat the pros.


(heavy sigh) Then give me $50,00 to $75,000 a year and I'll do that!

The HPP conversation is never about what it take for the USA to be competitive, it's about how the resources are used. And how we keep competitive curling alive in America.

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