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01-07-18 08:12PM
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NWUSA
Knee-Slider

 

Registered: Jan 2018
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Front end influence on shots?

I'm merely a club player, but I've run into an issue on which I'd like your opinion. I play third. Skip and I discuss shot, agree (he gets final say), then he goes down to deliver. At least two times per game, the front end talks to him Into a different shot while he is in the hack. Then he and the second show me where the new broom should be. Skip does not slide down to tell me revised shot (he says it would take too much time -- but he is a slow skip anyway), he just shouts from the hack . I now can only guess what the new shot is. This drives me crazy. I've talked to him about this, but he doesn't get it. Advice?

Last edited by NWUSA on 01-07-18 at 08:14PM

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01-08-18 09:32AM
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CurlingZoneStats
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Either an inexperienced skip or a poor skip.
Find a new team or get used to it.

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01-08-18 12:21PM
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curlky
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I skip primarily, though play other spots at times. And once a game or so, I will discuss the shot with my vice, go down to the hack, and the view from that far away changes my mind, so I will switch the shot. This is somewhat normal if only 1 or 2 times per game. But you need to dig a bit deeper into what is going on if more often or with your situation.

When I talk to the vice, I usually end up with going for either Shot X or Shot Y. We decide on Shot X lets say. When I get down to the hack, I might say lets go with Shot Y instead. This switch is no big deal, as I already discussed both shots with the vice, and no conversation then needs to take place, just the skip saying lets go with Shot Y instead. If this describes what happens (and again this is normal) then you as a Vice need to work through both shot options before he leaves to go down to the hack.

But, if either your skip on his own, or with guidance from the front end comes up with Shot Z that we have not discussed, then that is not a good situation. If the Skip doesn’t want to come down to discuss, then as a vice, I would slide up to ask about it. I would never hold the broom down for a shot I did not understand unless there was some extenuating situation such as time is running out. If you don’t know the shot, then what is the purpose of you being down there, and this needs to be addressed within the team.

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01-08-18 03:24PM
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NWUSA
Knee-Slider

 

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Thanks for your reply. Since I am so frustrated, I beg your indulgence.

It's Shot Z that he calls from the hack. Front end points it out to him, convinces him that it's a better shot, and he attempts it.

Follow-up questions:
1) Traditionally, front end does not call shots, correct? Their job is to execute. That's how I learned anyway.
2) Skip defends by saying, "Well, that was a better shot anyway." In my opinion, we should have considered all shots before he leaves house (my bad if I didn't). It seems as if these Z shots reflect the 2nd's strategy not his. Do I remind him to stick to his strategy? Or just let him do what he thinks is best?
3) Should I talk to front end about this?

Thx.

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01-08-18 05:12PM
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curlky
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If you watch high end curling, you will see that on a maybe 1-3 shots, the front end will chime in with a suggestion. It is very possible that they see a shot that the skip and/or vice did not see. As long as rare, and as long as it does not waste time, then this would not bother me too much. But it is worth keeping an eye on it. But even with Shot Z being called, as I said, as a vice, I would not stand in the house and hold the broom until I knew the shot. Why hold the broom for a shot that you have no idea what it is supposed to do. Maybe your skip is being passive aggressive and wont slide down to you, so slide down to him/her.

I try to say this politely, but this paragraph likely comes off not (I mean no bad intent). Here is what you need to make sure that you are aware of. Shot call is determined by the Skip. Him deciding to go with Shot Z over the call you discussed is his right, and you should be OK with that. What you have a perfect reason to be upset about is that you are holding the broom for a shot that you don’t understand. That is terrible teamwork. And the skip needs to make the vice aware of the shot, or as I said, otherwise, why are you even standing there. Now this can be handles nicely I think, no reason to be confrontational, at least at first.

This sounds like a new team, or at least you are a new player. If you plan to stay with this team, then I think that this is something that needs to be discussed between all the team members. Might not be a comfortable conversation, but should be addressed. Maybe the best way to handle this might be for you to go up to the skip, and explain your concern. Just say, when the front ends convinces you to go with a shot that we have discussed, you need to know what the shot is so you can call line as the rock goes down the ice.

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01-08-18 05:30PM
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Thanks again. You make sense.

BTW, I have been curling for 40+ years. Skip has been curling for less than 5, which is why I want to educate him about the dangers of this practice. If he were Kevin Koe with a team he's been playing with for years, that's one thing. This is another.

Thanks.

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01-08-18 05:42PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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I think the second and/or lead need to slide down and tell you if they like something. Then slide away, the front end player does not sit there and argue the merits of the shot he just I like this, because this and slides away. The back end then Converses about it as an option and everyone is on the same page. Once you get to the hack the shot should never be changed to something that wasn't discussed. The only thing that should be talked about is weight and possibly confirming broom placement.

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01-08-18 11:29PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2014
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I don't like changing the shot in the hack. If the front end sees something different from where they are standing they should point it out while the skip and vice are still in the house. I believe that once the skip starts sliding towards the hack he or she should be focused on making the shot that was called and visualizing its success, not second guessing the call.

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01-09-18 10:18AM
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AlanMacNeill
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My question would be why did the skip not see it?

If it's something that is really only apparent from the far end, then, frankly, that's the front end's job...although I can't think of much of that offhand.

If it's something the skip (or you, for that matter) should have seen in your inspection of the house, then you need to determine why the two of you aren't seeing it originally...is there a hole in your thought process?

My front end had that habit for a while, I broke them of it by informing them that the shot was determined by the time I leave the house, if they see something earlier than that they're welcome to shout down and bring it up (or slide down even), but once I've left the house, the shot is determined, I'm spending the time coming down the ice visualizing that shot, it's too late to change unless the view from the hack is *really* different.

But, there have been occasions when after the game, the front end has mentioned "Hey, did you see the..." and I had to admit that no, neither I nor my Vice did, so we discussed it and figured out why we didn't see it...or sometimes yes, we did see it and here's why we didn't throw it.

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01-09-18 01:07PM
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Marc Bernard
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As the coach of a U18 team, I encourage the front end to speak up (in moderation) when they see something different from the far end. Sometimes it's simply to confirm that the shot call meets the goal for this end. Are we trying to steal? Then why are we peeling? That kind of thing.

If the shot call changes the skip should certainly head back down the ice to make sure everyone understands the call, expected weight, etc.

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