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02-18-18 01:51PM
fresca is offline Click Here to See the Profile for fresca Click here to Send fresca a Private Message Find more posts by fresca Add fresca to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
fresca
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sorry - most teams in manitoba in the 70s had input from leads and seconds

it wasnt ever shot because most shots are obvious to anyone with above average curling ability ..

and it took 10 - 20 seconds then if if there were a few choices

and the percentages were about the same - thou ice conditions were not as good - but probably more consistent than this arena ice - particulary the early days of an event

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02-18-18 01:56PM
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Benoit Schwarz and Koe were both one man wrecking crews but Koes wreck lost them the game.

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02-18-18 04:14PM
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kevin and benoit teams are both easy to cheer for

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02-18-18 04:52PM
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Fresca

During the 70's and 80's was pre-free guard zone. The percentages were nothing like they are today. I played then. Memorably beating Earl Morris in the Quebec playdowns when he took over Ursel's team. I remember watching a final with Eddie and team shooting in the low 70's and winning. There are a ton of reasons for that. A) The ice conditions are so much better today. B) There is less crap on the ice. C) The players at the elite level are in much better shape. D) We understand why rocks curl and how to texture them. E) Brushes are much more efficient than brooms. F) As ever, we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us.

As golfers are better today than they were thirty years ago. (I used to be a pro) Tennis players. Runners, jumpers, you name it and we're better at it than we were 30 years ago. Curling is no different.

As to every shot being obvious. Before the FGZ true enough. Most offense came from misses and a lot of misses came from the conditions. And how do I know that? Once the conditions improved the players stopped missing and the game became as exciting as watching paint dry. Guard, peel, guard peel, guard peel, blank. Wash rinse repeat. Famously crowds began booing and jeering players for making their shots....you know you have a problem when.

At the elite level today the strategy is anything but simple. The rocks are so reactive, and the players can throw it so hard and so accurately, figuring out how to get the angles just right is exceedingly complex . And how do I know that? Between them Team Koe have 12 Brier titles and they find it complicated.

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02-18-18 05:11PM
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i should have moved to quebec

i curled 90% in 4 manitoba playdowns and we didnt win

musta been easy pickens for you guys - same guys winning every year, beating 3 other average teams that entered

oh wait - you curled 70 % - me bad - i thought you were a mens team .. sorry

one thing for sure - neither of our teams of not full time professionals could compete now - we had jobs and never would have been able to accumulate enough points to get into the slams and playoffs

these midnight and 4 am games from tomorrowland must be killing the tv viewing

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02-18-18 05:51PM
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
i should have moved to quebec

i curled 90% in 4 manitoba playdowns and we didnt win

musta been easy pickens for you guys - same guys winning every year, beating 3 other average teams that entered

oh wait - you curled 70 % - me bad - i thought you were a mens team .. sorry

one thing for sure - neither of our teams of not full time professionals could compete now - we had jobs and never would have been able to accumulate enough points to get into the slams and playoffs

these midnight and 4 am games from tomorrowland must be killing the tv viewing



Plenty of the greats had jobs:

Ken Watson only won 3 Briers in 3 attempts, should have been 4 for 4 but the 1942 Brier got cancelled due to WWII - Watson was a teacher educator and later life-insurance salesman.

Norm Houck won a Manitoba, runner up at Brier - was a teacher, never got back to the show.

Bruce Hudson - got to two shows (both at Gary Ross's expense) and did well. He worked full-time.

Bronko McBraunstein - was 18 when he got his first Manitoba, runner-up to walking pneumonia victim Matt Baldwin (Baldwin's last of 3 Brier Ws) Bronko was an average student - Baldwin was a big oil-man in Alberta.

Jimmy Welsh, Abner Gowanlock, Rod Hunter - all worked.

The first of the non-working professional skips probably Russ Howard. Then in no particular order - Alan Hackner, Kevin Martin, Wayne Middaugh, Porky Werenich, Rick Folk, Kerry Burtnyk, Brad Jacobs, Brad Gushue, John Morris.

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02-18-18 07:11PM
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Lots of those worked although there jobs allowed time for curling.

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02-18-18 11:23PM
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was 2 night a week curling - 10 end games and stay til midnight and have a few drinks

they started packing teams for the car spiels ...

then a few teams didnt try hard in club games - the skip would play lead -- but they had to play to be eligible for the zone playdowns thru the club - then teams went to the nearby country clubs for an easy zone spot

about 2006 the serious practise started - thro 200 rocks a day

then "own the podium" an the govt started funding 2 teams a year - eventually $100k and coaching

it really hit bottom when a few top teams were told about sweeping tecniques , brooms , an d SECRET stuff

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02-19-18 03:16AM
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Lainger's arm/shoulder

I missed the conversation about Laing and his arm/shoulder impacting his sweeping. what is up?
USA beat Canada fair and square. Great game by team USA.

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02-19-18 05:57AM
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Seems to be some kind of universal balancing act going on. Only one Canadian team at a time is allowed to win.

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02-19-18 08:16AM
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you know, it's almost kind of funny how joan and mike were raving about how well team koe was playing and talking about how when they get on a roll they are very hard to stop. well, here we are 3 games later and they've lost 3 in a row. now they have a game against japan that's crucial. win and you're looking good for playoffs. lose and you're outside and hoping for some help

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02-19-18 10:10AM
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Just reviewed the who play's whom in the 3-loss group. Canada has the best track with a game in hand to boot. Yes. Japan will be a tough one, but only two games away from hanging on. Norway has it tough, as does USA. #GoCdaGo

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02-19-18 10:24AM
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Re: Lainger's arm/shoulder

quote:
Originally posted by Western Newbie
I missed the conversation about Laing and his arm/shoulder impacting his sweeping. what is up?



Only speculation at this time by Joan/Mike They noticed Laing is reversing which hand is lower on the rock depending on which side he is sweeping on and that Ben is sweeping the inside ( could have been outside?) on all rocks now.

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02-19-18 09:50PM
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Canada needs to buy a round for Korea

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02-20-18 06:26AM
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Still All to Play for

Well at the very least Team Koe is guaranteed a place in a tie break game. But hold the presses this plot may just be starting to thicken.

Because of who plays who in the final two draws there is the potential for as much whackiness on the men's side as the women's.

There is again the potential for a six way tie for second place. It's not of course likely but here's how it could go landing six teams at 5-4.

On the loss side:
Canada loses to Denmark. Great Britain loses to the U.S.
Swiss lose to the U.S.

That lands them all at 5-4.

On the win side:
Japan beat Denmark and Korea.
U.S. beat G.B. and the Swiss.
Norway beats Italy and Sweden.

That lands them also at 5-4.

I have no idea as to the tie-break rules and in any case this is of course far too theoretical at this point to bother tabulating the potential head to head records. Suffice to say that a lot of teams are going to be scoreboard watching with the rest of us.

Last edited by JB42 on 02-20-18 at 06:40AM

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02-20-18 06:44AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JB42
Seems to be some kind of universal balancing act going on. Only one Canadian team at a time is allowed to win.

And the pattern continues...

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02-20-18 08:11AM
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Re: Still All to Play for

quote:
Originally posted by JB42

I have no idea as to the tie-break rules...



Pretty straightforward, really...

For any tie of two teams, the team that won the head to head gets the higher placement.

For ties of more than two teams, there is a procedure:

1. Rank the teams within the tie by the result of games between those tied teams.

2. If teams are still tied after that, continue to break ties using the results of games between those teams still in the tie.

3. Any situations that cannot be broken by 1&2 above are ranked by DSC results (18 throws in the Olympics, so discard the worst 2 for each team)

4. Should DSC be tied (unlikely), the team with the best single throw during the DSC is awarded the higher ranking.

Interestingly, although the WCF rules say there will be no tiebreakers, the schedule indicates that there is a tiebreaking draw scheduled...so I'm not at all sure how that is happening.

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02-20-18 09:37AM
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Re: Re: Still All to Play for

quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


Interestingly, although the WCF rules say there will be no tiebreakers, the schedule indicates that there is a tiebreaking draw scheduled...so I'm not at all sure how that is happening.



WCF rules indidcate there is always one (and only one tie-breaker in the schedule). This includes the Olympics.
ie. if three teams are tied for one final playoff spot...one team is going home due to their draw shot score.

https://www.pyeongchang2018.com/en/...--_1223_ENG.pdf

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02-20-18 09:51AM
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They *used* to indicate that, but the current rules (10/2017) state:

http://worldcurling.org/download/?d...xGc3NlRapVUq5UV

(Page 42, rule C9(c))

"When teams are tied for a play-off position, team(s) shall be eliminated without playing an extra game, as tie-breaker games will not be played"

I suspect that the old rules (one draw of playoffs, as you stated) are in force for this Olympics, due to how the tie in Mixed was resolved.

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02-20-18 10:09AM
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If there is any kind of tie, there will be tiebreak game(s).

At this link is a .pdf with all possible scenarios:

http://www.worldcurling.org/owg2018/scenarios-men

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Last edited by Phil_D on 02-20-18 at 10:14AM

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02-20-18 10:21AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
They *used* to indicate that, but the current rules (10/2017) state:

http://worldcurling.org/download/?d...xGc3NlRapVUq5UV

(Page 42, rule C9(c))

"When teams are tied for a play-off position, team(s) shall be eliminated without playing an extra game, as tie-breaker games will not be played"

I suspect that the old rules (one draw of playoffs, as you stated) are in force for this Olympics, due to how the tie in Mixed was resolved.




Wow! I thought it was bad enough when the went to max one-tiebreaker a few years ago. Can't wait to see somebody eliminated at the World's due to this. Anyways for the Olympics it is one tie breaker as stated in the olympic curling rules I posted above. Honestly I hope a bunch of teams get eliminated like this to shine a spotlight on how ridiculous the policy is. I don't care if you have to do three rounds of tie-breakers. Play at midnight, four games in a day. Whatever it takes.

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02-20-18 11:07AM
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if you look at the schedule there is a timeslot listed for tiebreakers should they be needed, 7:05 pm Wednesday night EST

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02-21-18 02:57PM
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I would bet the house on Koe taking Shuster in the Semi-final.

Like Johnny Mo wasn't willing to let the ole Bear lose another international competition, no way that Marc Kennedy is going to let Koe lose this semi-final.

The final, different story. Sweden starts with the hammer which statistics proves is unfortunately a much bigger deal than many might think. Next, if the Swedes play like they did in the RR they are pretty much unbeatable. Truth be told on the form of the last two seasons Edin is an obvious clear favourite. To overcome the disadvantage of starting without last rock, and this truly excellent team, Team Koe are going to have to stand on their heads. Either that or Sweden is going to have to have one really bad end that lets us get control of this sucker.

Once Team Koe is in the Gold medal game I'm sure they'll feel like their job is done and will relax and give us an awesome game to watch. Here's to hoping it comes down to last rock and we got the hammer.

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02-21-18 03:06PM
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You're making a couple of big assumptions there.

1. That Sweden gets past the tiebreak winner. Likely, but not guaranteed.

2. That Canada beats the US...there's already been one defeat there this Olympics, and Shuster's on a role...I fancy his chances.

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02-21-18 03:41PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
You're making a couple of big assumptions there.

1. That Sweden gets past the tiebreak winner. Likely, but not guaranteed.

2. That Canada beats the US...there's already been one defeat there this Olympics, and Shuster's on a role...I fancy his chances.



The betting odds would certainly be in favour of a Sweden vs. Canada final, but there is a reason they play the games...

As for Shuster being on a roll, that is certainly the case. After getting their backs against the wall they have been very solid and although another win against Koe is not impossible, I would suggest it will not be easy. In the round robin game between the two teams, Shuster specifically, and after about the third or fourth end the rest of his team, had perhaps the game of their lives. I suspect it will take an equally strong effort in the semi final to have a chance to win the game.

That being said, in a manner similar to Team Homan, I do not think that Team Koe, and Kevin specifically, have played up to the standard they are capable of. I think it will take a better effort than we have seen so far in the tournament for them to advance to the final.

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