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biterbar
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 530

quote:
Originally posted by curlky


Yep


So did you realize there are hundreds of junior curlers who all live within a short commute of each other so "finding 4 in the same basic area" is really quite easy to do here and in many other states?

And that if the HPP/USCA wanted to they could have quite a little feeder system for adult competitive curlers by sending in coaches and coach trainers to develop these curlers?

The kids are there, it is developing them and keeping them interested that is the trick.

I hope that the U-18 is the trick we need. Two weekends from now at the Milwaukee curling clubs new 5 sheet facility.

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...Qualified-Teams

__________________
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Old Post 02-22-17 02:14PM
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Alice
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 288

What Three wrote is brilliant.

HPP thinks it can manufacture Canadian results by "shortcuts" as Three wrote. HPP uses Billy Bean baseball statistics to pick who they think can win with a touch of who'll look best for TV. However, in the end, the only results that matter are on-ice wins by skips and their teams who run out of time-outs for handholding and micromanaging from coaches.

Unless USCA figures a way to declare victory and move on to change its HPP strategy the odds are HPP has already decided which players to support and which to shut out of this year's Olympic Trials after playing Billy Ball with them for so many seasons. We'll all know by May 15 when USCA is supposed to announce if any teams get a "discretionary" invite to our Trials. Without a serious opportunity to compete by teams who might do very well at fall 2017 cashspiels, it's not "our" Trials. It's HPP staff's trials. And, it's certainly not following Stevens Act federal law on "right to compete".

It will be fun to see how USCA explains the sign-up-and-go womern's nationals this year under its reporting requirement to USOC to explain what it's doing to increase "participation" by women and other special groups Congress requires in quadrennial reports.

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Old Post 02-22-17 02:54PM
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Three
Hitting Paint

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 196

quote:
Originally posted by Alice
What Three wrote is brilliant.


Flattery will get you everywhere.

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Old Post 02-22-17 03:42PM
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KiwiCurl
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Oct 2016
Location: Auckland
Posts: 13

Very interesting thread, and like others, I'd like to see US competitive curling thrive (like I'd like to see competitive curling everywhere thrive).

Re the 'HPP - self-formed teams' thing...here's a question for my American friends (looking at you here Ben Tucker)...

As a development pathway to support young players, the USA has a weapon that almost no other country has, and I've never heard about it being used for curling.

The NCAA.

Why is collegiate curling not a solid and growing thing in the US?

In particular, it would have to help with growing the pool of competitive women athletes.

If softball can be a huge women's collegiate sport, why not curling?

Hans

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Old Post 02-22-17 03:57PM
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birvin
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2016
Location:
Posts: 31

it's a thing: http://collegecurlingusa.org

Not yet a scholarship-level sport, more of a club-level sport with hopes and dreams for the future.

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curlinglove
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Bay City, Michigan
Posts: 50

Collegiate curling is a recreational club sport at schools in the US. Students among collegiate curling first learn to curl at this stage. For that reason, most young competitive curlers steer away from collegiate curling.

HPP junior teams. I think the program has caused resentment among young curlers toward HPP. My niece is involved in competitive youth curling. She and I know kids will root against the young HP teams at competitions. It seems, youth curlers outside the program want to see the HPP fail. One can argue the HPP has led youth teams outside the program to work harder in order to defeat HPP. Now, I can't decide whether I am for or against HPP self forming and funding junior teams. I do know one thing, they are just kids playing the sport they love, let's not forget that.

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Old Post 02-22-17 04:54PM
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squireoh
Knee-Slider

Registered: May 2016
Location:
Posts: 6

Curlinglove and birvin already mentioned there is collegiate curling in the US, but Kiwi specifically mentioned the NCAA. I think that has been left unaddressed.

While the NCAA doesn't sponsor curling, that doesn't mean it cannot in the future. But even if it did it would be a poor vehicle to develop curling. Its eligibility rules are such that any competitive junior curler who received sponsorship money would be ruled ineligible to compete collegiately. So the NCAA route would be barred to the competitive curler.

The NCAA works best for sports that follow the traditional American development pipeline, which is through schools. Curling doesn't follow the traditional American sporting pipeline, so the NCAA is not the best vehicle for developing curlers.

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Old Post 02-22-17 05:13PM
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curlky
Swing Artist

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 468

quote:
Originally posted by biterbar

So did you realize there are hundreds of junior curlers who all live within a short commute of each other so "finding 4 in the same basic area" is really quite easy to do here and in many other states?

And that if the HPP/USCA wanted to they could have quite a little feeder system for adult competitive curlers by sending in coaches and coach trainers to develop these curlers?

The kids are there, it is developing them and keeping them interested that is the trick.

I hope that the U-18 is the trick we need. Two weekends from now at the Milwaukee curling clubs new 5 sheet facility.

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...Qualified-Teams



Its this type of short sides answer that leads to ideas not complete solutions. I am fully aware that there are area that have a dense curling base. But those areas are not all that common. I think that around 50% of curling clubs in the US are arena based, and they dont have hundreds of curlers in a short area let alone hundreds of juniors.

I think it is awesome that junior curling is so strong in yoru area. I hope that some programs are put in place to help self formed teams from yoru area as well as others do better. But at this point, there are only something like 20K curlers in teh US, or something around 0.0006% of the US population. If you do the math, and only count the area of the largest 50 metropolitan areas in the US (so ignoring rural areas where there is sparce population) there is approximately 0.06 curlers per square mile. That means there is 1 curler per every 16 square miles in the US metropolitan areas. I hope you know that you are lucky to be in curling country, and realize the world exists outside of yoru area.

But I also hope that for areas where junior curling is not a very big thing, thought is also given on how to grow curling outside of the traditional curling hot beds.

As more of a snarky response, relying on your self formed junior teams from a very small geographically limited area has not led to US curling becoming a world power. I for one am willing to take a step back, consider old ways as well as new ones, and find out how to blend techniques, not treat fellow curlers like idiots who wouldnt understand that there are areas with lots of curlers.

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Old Post 02-22-17 09:51PM
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 745

Snarky? CurlKy posted that US curling clubs just do not have many junior curlers so finding 4 in the same area who can practice locally in not very likely. Biterbar simply replied with facts. So because his facts do not match your comments that makes HIM snarky? I am sure biterbar knows he is lucky to be living in curling country and the realizes that "the world exists outside his area" but I hope you realize that the world exists outside your area as well. There are lots of junior curlers who would love the opportunity to compete on a level playing field for national championships. Just because those kids are not in your area now does not mean they should not be given that chance. Nor does it mean that thought should not be given to how to grow curling outside of traditional curling hotbeds. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
You seem to accuse biterbar of treating fellow curlers like idiots. Take another look at your posts if that is what you are looking for. Snarky?? Really!

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Old Post 02-22-17 11:01PM
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Grat
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 93

Arena clubs may be a large percentage of the total number of clubs, but a very small percentage of the youth curling populations.

Arena curling is great for growing the sport and part of the long game. But it doesn't do much to develop junior curlers until those arena clubs take the plunge for dedicated ice. Due to cost and ice availability there is less youth curling in arena clubs, and those curlers can't play our practice (we're talking about practice) enough to play on the same level as kids from curling country.

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Old Post 02-23-17 01:49AM
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biterbar
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 530

I try to play nice with Curlky, I really do, but it's just not worth the effort. Curlers per square mile? Arena clubs? This has absolutely nothing to do with anything on the subject.

We have a nice population of junior curlers and the USCA/HPP needs to come up with a better system to develop them and keep them in the game.

Listen to Three.

Enough said.

__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

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Old Post 02-23-17 09:00AM
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curlky
Swing Artist

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 468

dbsdbs, my words about snarky were to say that MY response was snarky, and I acknowledge that. It was not to say that anything written to me was snarky. I also 100% acknowledge that there are dense areas of junior curlers. I am 100% fully aware that an arena club cannot truly develop juniors due to ice time.. I suppose I did not make my point very clear, or you guys focused on only parts (doesn't matter really which), so I will try again.

My point was there really arenít many curlers in the US. There are pockets with huge amounts of curlers, and many more pockets without many curlers at all. A solution needs to be developed to help BOTH situations. In an area with lots of curlers, self-formed teams along with better coaching and clinics is probably the way to go in the long run. But for someone who is in a pocket without many curlers, it can be tough to find a self-formed team, and for that type of person, the appointed system would work much better. Hence the dilemma on what is the best path to proceed, since both situations are likely to need completely opposite solutions.

Look into how many junior teams go to playdowns in a region that is not a super dense pocket of curlers, its sad how few teams playdown. Go ahead and look into the GLCA and how many teams go to junior playdowns. It is easy to jump to a conclusion that the lack of teams playing down is a result of people being disheartened by the HPP formed and funded teams and no chance to win. But as a kid, I played tons of sports, knowing that at some point there would be teams that were far superior to mine. Never stopped me from trying ot get as far as I could. As a result, I look at the GLCA numbers being more that they cannot find enough kids to form those teams to begin with. I just want to make sure that people outside of the American Curling hotbeds know that things are far different in other areas of the country, and universal solutions needs to be developed.

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Old Post 02-23-17 11:01AM
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RockDoc
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 365

quote:
Originally posted by KiwiCurl


Why is collegiate curling not a solid and growing thing in the US?

In particular, it would have to help with growing the pool of competitive women athletes.

If softball can be a huge women's collegiate sport, why not curling?

Hans



Collegiate curling is indeed growing and thriving in the USA, especially but not limited to the Northeast. Our club is home to around 50 college curlers from 3-4 area institutions.

Things to know:

1. At least in the East (where the majority of college curling is happening now) about 90% of participants have never curled before going to college. So undergraduate students will typically have only 3-4 years of experience prior to graduating.

2. Curling is very, very unlikely to emerge as a NCAA sport, for many reasons, including but not limited to (a) the costs of compliance with NCAA rules for coaching staff, etc. (b) cost of traveling to, renting and/or building facilities, (c) need for newly added sports to significantly contribute to Title IX to provide opportunities for women athletes (curling is too small impact compared to larger team sports.) Colleges are very reluctant to add additional NCAA sports at this time because of associated costs and Title IX requirements, and curling will be very expensive with too little impact. I know this arena well, becuase I work at a small D-I institution, and or former AD and current hockey coach is a former curler to boot.

Having said that, curling is a thriving club sport at many colleges and universities. A good model for curling is collegiate rugby or sailing. These are strong, well-funded club sports (without the dead weight of NCAA regulations) that have robust national competition. Collegiate Curling is moving in that direction.

I'm not convinced at the moment that collegiate curling is going to be the future of competitive curlers in the US, because they typically start too late compared to junior curlers. But there are some very good, developing players at the collegiate level that have not curled previously.

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Old Post 02-23-17 11:22AM
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bjacks217
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Michigan, United States
Posts: 19

quote:
Originally posted by curlky
dbsdbs, my words about snarky were to say that MY response was snarky, and I acknowledge that. It was not to say that anything written to me was snarky. I also 100% acknowledge that there are dense areas of junior curlers. I am 100% fully aware that an arena club cannot truly develop juniors due to ice time.. I suppose I did not make my point very clear, or you guys focused on only parts (doesn't matter really which), so I will try again.

My point was there really arenít many curlers in the US. There are pockets with huge amounts of curlers, and many more pockets without many curlers at all. A solution needs to be developed to help BOTH situations. In an area with lots of curlers, self-formed teams along with better coaching and clinics is probably the way to go in the long run. But for someone who is in a pocket without many curlers, it can be tough to find a self-formed team, and for that type of person, the appointed system would work much better. Hence the dilemma on what is the best path to proceed, since both situations are likely to need completely opposite solutions.

Look into how many junior teams go to playdowns in a region that is not a super dense pocket of curlers, its sad how few teams playdown. Go ahead and look into the GLCA and how many teams go to junior playdowns. It is easy to jump to a conclusion that the lack of teams playing down is a result of people being disheartened by the HPP formed and funded teams and no chance to win. But as a kid, I played tons of sports, knowing that at some point there would be teams that were far superior to mine. Never stopped me from trying ot get as far as I could. As a result, I look at the GLCA numbers being more that they cannot find enough kids to form those teams to begin with. I just want to make sure that people outside of the American Curling hotbeds know that things are far different in other areas of the country, and universal solutions needs to be developed.



I am not picking sides or saying either of you is right or wrong. I do know that three, yes, three Junior Mens teams are coming out of the GLCA to play at the U-18 Nationals. Two GLCA Junior women's teams are going to the U-18 Nationals as well. This is exciting and I hope we can do all we can to keep these kids playing competitively for years to come.

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Old Post 02-24-17 11:33AM
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MCC_PE
Hitting Paint

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 132

Out of all the USCA regions, the GLCA had the most teams playdown for both the U18 men's and U18 women's events (five each). We're not as well represented at the U21 level, but give us time...

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Old Post 02-24-17 12:11PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2557

Fallout from Nations (in this case, Junior Nationals)

The Board committee on competitions will have to address the play-in system for Juniors. Those in the East got to Sign Up And Go; while the rest of the nation had to play a regional.

I suspect Junior Berth Spiels are in the works already. I hope so.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 02-24-17 11:21PM
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AlanMacNeill
Drawmaster

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 888

Junior Berth spiels...great idea...

They should hold one in each region...

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Old Post 02-24-17 11:27PM
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curlky
Swing Artist

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 468

quote:
Originally posted by bjacks217
I am not picking sides or saying either of you is right or wrong. I do know that three, yes, three Junior Mens teams are coming out of the GLCA to play at the U-18 Nationals. Two GLCA Junior women's teams are going to the U-18 Nationals as well. This is exciting and I hope we can do all we can to keep these kids playing competitively for years to come.


I am very aware that the GLCA has many fantastic curlers, that was not my intent, and I hope it was not taken that way. a quick question since you are up on that, is how many teams played down to produce those 3 and 2 teams? ANd how were the playdown numbes for u21? I think it was around 2 or 3 yeas ago that there were only 2 glca junior womens teams that playdowned for the birth in nationals.

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Old Post 02-25-17 12:59AM
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averagecurler
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2016
Location:
Posts: 21

This year there were 5 men's teams and 5 women's teams at U-18 playdowns in the GLCA. In previous years there have been at most 3 junior teams entered per gender. There are a couple of clubs with solid junior programs and others in the region are continuing to get a start. Look for more teams and a little more depth out of the GLCA in coming years.

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Old Post 02-25-17 01:06AM
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mattrhames
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 49

quote:
[i] Who is the best coach in America? Easy. John Shuster. [/B]


FWIW, I don't disagree with this. He's a smart player, and makes people better.

That said, coaches can help. They are there for a bunch of reasons, some that are obvious, some that are not. Having gone to a worlds as a "coach" (I put that in quotes because really, I wasn't, though I am more and more familiar with it) here are the obvious things a coach does:

1. Comes out at a timeout.
2. Scouts the competition in advance of the tournament. Watches tendencies. Quebec will not win the Brier, but if they did, you'll want to force inturns. Where else is there a tendency you can exploit?
3. Rocks. The coach should have the rock book from USA curling. The coach should scout the other sheets to see if the teams are throwing the rocks in the order of the rock book Ė to start. If there are changes, they should be noted. None of this scouting is on players ince they are watching the rocks of their counterpart to see about changes. You never lose a game because you didn't have hammer in 1. You can lose a game if you throw a bad rock in 1.
4. Schedule. This is where you're eating. This is what you're eating. This is bed time. This is drive to rink time. The players have a lot of decisions to make on the ice, they don't need to decide where to eat or at what time.
5. Ice changes. What is the speed like when you're the only game out there? What is the speed like when the barn is full? Empty? What is the speed like on all sheets late in games? (This is critical for the early part of the draw. Coaches have the luxury of watching other games. Players don't. They need to stay hyper focused on the sheet.
6. Team dynamics. The coach should know the styles of the players. What do they need when there is a miss? (Even if you play 90%, you miss two shots a game.) The coach can remind players of how to lift their teammate. This is a post game conversation.
7. Rocks. They are so important, it is on this list twice.

There are probablt more things, but I'm working.

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