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SharpestBroom
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

Curious about rules regarding measurement

I played against a skip recently that delivered with a stabilizer. When calling ice, he would use the stabilizer to measure the distance away from the rock to place his broom for different situations (for example, he used the short width of the stabilizer as the basis for icing a normal hit, and the long length to ice a hack weight hit). Besides being strategically questionable, is this legal?

Rule R2 (i) states:

quote:
A stone may be measured only visually until the last stone of the end has come to rest, except to determine if a stone is in play, or, prior to playing the second, third, or fourth stone of an end, to determine if a stone is in the Free Guard Zone.


I'm not sure if this would count as measuring the stone, since he's not trying to determine the location of the stone, but rather the location of the broom.

Thoughts?

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Old Post 03-07-17 12:59PM
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guido
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 855

Perfectly legal, but what a terrible way to give ice.

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Old Post 03-07-17 01:09PM
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jzwanzig
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Halifax
Posts: 53

What you describe sounds legal. I understand the rule as forbidding a measurement of which stone is shot (say) during the end, other than just by a visual inspection. Putting your broom or stabilizer or whatever on the ice near the stones is ok.

As someone who delivers with a stabilizer, I can say that it's a headache when playing skip not to have a broom at hand. You'll notice in the Brier this year, Richard Hart is using a stabilizer to deliver, which has been modified to include an entire broom (lots of stabilizers have an integral broom head, so you can clean the ice after you clean the rock, but his has that plus an entire stick out the other end, I guess so he can also sweep the house when Glenn Howard is delivering. Frankly it looks pretty unwieldy).

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Old Post 03-07-17 01:19PM
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SharpestBroom
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

I thought about it the same way, but wanted to double check since I'd never come across it in a game.

I guess it would only become an issue if he tried to use the stabilizer to measure distance from the pin or a ring.

However, this begs the question... if you're allowed to do this, then can you bring ruler on the ice (or tape a ruled sticker on a broom or stabilizer) to actually measure the amount of broom given each time. I feel like most people would think this goes against the spirit of the game, at the very least.

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Old Post 03-07-17 02:30PM
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On The Nose
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 357

quote:
Originally posted by jzwanzig
What you describe sounds legal. I understand the rule as forbidding a measurement of which stone is shot (say) during the end, other than just by a visual inspection. Putting your broom or stabilizer or whatever on the ice near the stones is ok.

As someone who delivers with a stabilizer, I can say that it's a headache when playing skip not to have a broom at hand. You'll notice in the Brier this year, Richard Hart is using a stabilizer to deliver, which has been modified to include an entire broom (lots of stabilizers have an integral broom head, so you can clean the ice after you clean the rock, but his has that plus an entire stick out the other end, I guess so he can also sweep the house when Glenn Howard is delivering. Frankly it looks pretty unwieldy).


Hart does not sweep with his modified broom/stabilizer. As a Third, he is sweeping the front end stones - and he has a proper, regular broom with which he does that. He holds that same broom to give Howard the ice (and to sweep in the House) when Howard is throwing.

His modified broom/stabilizer is used only as a delivery device.

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Old Post 03-07-17 09:45PM
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curler2014
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 58

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

Hart does not sweep with his modified broom/stabilizer. As a Third, he is sweeping the front end stones - and he has a proper, regular broom with which he does that. He holds that same broom to give Howard the ice (and to sweep in the House) when Howard is throwing.

His modified broom/stabilizer is used only as a delivery device.



Exactly. You can only have one broom to use to sweep AND use to hold for ice. Can't use anyone else's broom to hold for ice...the only time you can have a different broom in your hand is as your throwing device. And it can't be used in the house. Even if he had legal material on his stabilizer, it is illegal to have multiple brooms per player, can't even swap. Your throwing device is for throwing only.

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Old Post 03-08-17 07:53AM
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curlky
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 501

I would say this is 100% illegal, and another example of how the curling rulebook is full of loopholes and vagueness. Everyone else has said it is legal because you are not measuring for shot. However, re-read the rule, nowhere does it say measuring for shot, it only says measuring, and with 100% certainty the use of the stabilizer as a guide is a form of measuring. Therefore by the letter of the rule, this is illegal. I would assume the intent of this was out outlaw measuring for shot, but since it is not worded as such, this still remains illegal in my eyes, and I would inform an official or league director to have this dealt with.

Now I do agree with others that strategically this is dumb, but that is not your question.

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Old Post 03-09-17 10:04AM
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SharpestBroom
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

quote:
Originally posted by curlky
I would say this is 100% illegal, and another example of how the curling rulebook is full of loopholes and vagueness. Everyone else has said it is legal because you are not measuring for shot. However, re-read the rule, nowhere does it say measuring for shot, it only says measuring, and with 100% certainty the use of the stabilizer as a guide is a form of measuring. Therefore by the letter of the rule, this is illegal. I would assume the intent of this was out outlaw measuring for shot, but since it is not worded as such, this still remains illegal in my eyes, and I would inform an official or league director to have this dealt with.

Now I do agree with others that strategically this is dumb, but that is not your question.



An interesting take, thanks for your input.

The use of a stabilizer as a guide is definitely measuring. The thing I'm not sure about is whether it would be considered the stone that is being measured. FWIW, I agree that I think it should be illegal. Like I said before, if this is legal, then it would be legal to carry a ruler out and measure your distance to the broom on every shot. I don't think many people would think that is legal.

This is turning out to be quite an interesting quandary. People who I've asked at my local curling club are split 50/50 on this as well. Maybe I should just ask the guy. Maybe he knows about the rule and thinks he's interpreting it right, and maybe he just doesn't know about the rule. I was surprised to find that many people I ask don't even know the measuring rule exists.

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Old Post 03-09-17 10:10AM
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AlanMacNeill
Drawmaster

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 909

quote:
Originally posted by curlky
I would say this is 100% illegal, and another example of how the curling rulebook is full of loopholes and vagueness. Everyone else has said it is legal because you are not measuring for shot. However, re-read the rule, nowhere does it say measuring for shot, it only says measuring...


Okay, let's go to the book: The Rules of Curling, October 2016 (from the WCF website)...

R2i (Stones):
quote:
A stone may be measured only visually until the last stone of the end has come to rest, except to determine if a stone is in play, or, prior to playing the second, third, or fourth stone of an end, to determine if a stone is in the Free Guard Zone.


the skip in question here is not measuring the stone, he is measuring his line, therefore this rule is not relevant. The play is legal sofar

R10 (equipment):
Says nothing about measurement, nor does it forbid the use of a slider to gauge anything. The play is still legal

R17 (Inappropriate behavior):
Doesn't mention measurements. The play is still legal

Everything else just discusses procedures for WCF Championships, which this most definitely isn't.

So, under WCF rules, the play is legal, assuming it doesn't unnecessarily delay the game.

USCA rules are word for word identical on these matters, so no difference there.

So if I were the official and you brought this to me, my ruling would, essentially, be "Suck it up, buttercup, he isn't violating a rule"

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Old Post 03-10-17 09:08AM
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SharpestBroom
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

Thanks for your response!

quote:
the skip in question here is not measuring the stone, he is measuring his line, therefore this rule is not relevant. The play is legal sofar


I thought this way at first when I posted this thread, but after some meditation on the subject I see it a little differently.

When you measure the shot rock, you're not measuring the stone itself, you're measuring the distance between the stone and the pin. It seems to me that if this wording covers that case, then it would cover the measurement of the distance between the stone and any arbitrary location for any purpose. In fact, the rule doesn't mention anything about measuring for shot rock.

I think it's something that I wouldn't mind allowed at a club level, especially if a newer skip thinks it helps them learn. But I think if someone tried to break out a yardstick and measure their line call at the Brier, it would be shut down pretty fast.

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Old Post 03-10-17 10:29AM
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biterbar
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 554

I would have to agree with Alan on this one. Maybe you should just sand the stones making his measurement irrelevant?

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Old Post 03-10-17 10:31AM
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SharpestBroom
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
I would have to agree with Alan on this one. Maybe you should just sand the stones making his measurement irrelevant?


Haha, I assure you it's already a rather ineffective technique.

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Old Post 03-10-17 10:33AM
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 853

It is perfectly legal. The rule cited means you can not formally measure a rock until all the rocks have been delivered and the end has concluded ( other than using a biter measure to determine if a rock is in the rings or in the free guard zone). He is not measuring rock proximity to the pin but using his delivery device as a standard of measure for broom placement. This method would be inconsistent at best and at most lead to more shots being missed as opposed to made.

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Old Post 03-10-17 10:56AM
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AlanMacNeill
Drawmaster

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 909

The intent of the "no measuring until the end" rule is to ensure that any "So, are we shot?" (or 2nd, 3rd, biting, etc) question is done on the basis of unaided visual only, no tools permitted, unless a Rules situation requires it (ie "is that stone in play or out?" or "is that stone in the FGZ?"). That is obvious due to the specific exceptions listed. You're not allowed to use anything other than your eyes to determine where a stone is in play until the end of the end.

This is to speed up the game by not taking a minute to drag out the measuring stick to answer the question, and to also reduce the likelihood of accidentally displacing a stone while trying to measure it (as is exceedingly likely when you are using a broom or other thing to measure).

Laying your stabilizer (or broom head) on the ice to establish "one stabilizer away from the stone for an outturn hit" isn't that. It's not measuring "Where on the ice is this stone?" it is determining your desired line.

In a timed game, it's your clock, use it how you like. In an untimed game, I could see a complaint if it was taking an excessive amount of time on every shot to do this. Likewise, if the way the skip is doing it is likely to damage the ice, that's covered under that rule.

But, if he's doing it without delaying the game unduly....carry on.

As the other skip, I'd be more than willing to show him the error of his ways by trying to set up situations where that hard measurement rule results in bad shotmaking, that's the best way to penalize the other skip, if that is really getting under your skin.

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Old Post 03-10-17 10:56AM
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SharpestBroom
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

So I went ahead and contacted WCF to get an official answer. Here was their response:

quote:

Hi WCF!

I recently played in a game where the opposing skip used his stabilizer to mark off his broom placement for making ice calls. For example, once when he was throwing a hit on his last shot, he put the left edge of his stabilizer against the rock, and asked his vice to place the broom on the right edge.

Is this legal? The rule in question that I think would apply is R2 (i) from the October 2016 version of the rules of curling.



quote:

Team sometimes used their brush head and even their shoes to compare distances to determine which stone was shot. This meant touching the side of an opponent’s stone and that was not pleasing to anyone. So the rule (R2 (i)) was made to prevent any type of measuring with any device (e.g. - brush head, brush handle, foot, stabilizer, etc). That pertains to measuring the distance somebody wants to give for a shot, so measuring as described in the email is illegal.

Cheers, Keith

Keith Wendorf
Director of Competitions & Development
World Curling Federation



Mystery solved!

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Old Post 03-10-17 11:20AM
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curlky
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 501

quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill

So if I were the official and you brought this to me, my ruling would, essentially, be "Suck it up, buttercup, he isn't violating a rule"



Please explain where in the rulebook it explicitly states that this phrase "A stone may be measured only visually until the last stone of the end has come to rest" refers to measuring distance to pin. I will wait, I guess forever, because it does not. This rule can be taken verbatim, that the measurement of a stone (height/width/depth/weight/etc) is prohibited. So from there, the next logical interpretation is that measuring of any kind for a rock to any location is prohibited. In your world, it would be OK to measure the outside of the rock to the 12 foot, but in reality that still tells you distance to the pin. With the stabilizer technique, you can get to this same situation where you would know physical locations.

And as far as what you would say, I would hope that whatever player you said those words would... well, lets just say I hope that it would end your officiating career.

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Old Post 03-10-17 11:30AM
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SharpestBroom
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

quote:
Originally posted by curlky

And as far as what you would say, I would hope that whatever player you said those words would... well, lets just say I hope that it would end your officiating career.



What's particularly intriguing is how I made it pretty clear that I was only asking out of curiosity, AND I posited the same point he made in my OP... I think this guy is projecting his spiteful nature onto me.

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Old Post 03-10-17 11:40AM
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biterbar
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 554

quote:
Originally posted by SharpestBroom


What's particularly intriguing is how I made it pretty clear that I was only asking out of curiosity, AND I posited the same point he made in my OP... I think this guy is projecting his spiteful nature onto me.



Don't feel bad, he told me to "go screw" which just may be a Kentucky way to say "F*** Off".

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Old Post 03-10-17 12:17PM
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AlanMacNeill
Drawmaster

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 909

quote:
Originally posted by SharpestBroom


What's particularly intriguing is how I made it pretty clear that I was only asking out of curiosity, AND I posited the same point he made in my OP... I think this guy is projecting his spiteful nature onto me.



If by "This guy" you mean curlky, then it's completely possible.

However, my commentary was directed at curlky's comment "I'd take this to an official to be dealt with"...and I know from experience that he would take whatever I said in the most aggressive way possible, so any acid was directed only at him.

However, as it appears we now have an official ruling from a higher authority, as is appropriate, I would therefore rule this illegal, due to clarification from above.

I also point out that's how you handle it when you don't like an on-ice official's ruling, you take it up the chain. On-ice officials are not the end of the line, they are the beginning of it.

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