Forums Menu

User: 
Pass:  

Curling Scores

M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: M5 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 7:00pm CT
Fitzgerald Final
Guentzel (10) Watch Live Curling!
Cenzalli Final
Rose (10) Watch Live Curling!
Church Final
Lannoye (10) Watch Live Curling!
Hebert Final
Brenden (9) Watch Live Curling!
W: New Holland Canadian Junior Championships
Fort McMurray, AB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 10 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 2:00pm MT
ON (Acres) Final
MB (Hayward) (10)
NO (Dubinsky) Final
NS (MacNutt) (9)
QC (Fortin) Final
MB (Terrick) (8)
PEI (Lenentine) Final
SK (Pomedli) (10)
NO (Toner) Final
NB (Forsythe) (10)
NT (Skauge) Final
AB (Deschiffart) (8)
ON (Markle) Final
AB (Beaudry) (10)
NL (Locke) Final
NS (Blades) (10)
W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: W4 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 2:00pm CT
Scheel Final
Berg (9) Watch Live Curling!
Pekowitz Final
Berg (9) Watch Live Curling!
Schapman Final
Johnson (10) Watch Live Curling!
Giroux 12  Final
Viau (9) Watch Live Curling!
M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
Lott/Lott Final
Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
Delorey Final
Lockhart (EE)
Full Scoreboard  |  Play Fantasy Pick'em!  
Disclaimer: CurlingZone does not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any Content posted on any Forums area and you acknowledge that any reliance upon such Content shall be at your sole risk. Any Content placed on any Forums area by users and anonymous posters are the views of the user posting the statement, and do not represent the views of CurlingZone or our partners, advertisers or sponsors. By posting anonymously, you are allowing your IP address to be displayed for identification purposes. CurlingZone reserves the right to remove any post at its discretion without warning or explanation.
Page 3 of 8 -- Go to: ««   | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | »»   Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread   Post A Reply
01-26-16 01:16PM
jtphoto2020 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for jtphoto2020 Click here to Send jtphoto2020 a Private Message Visit jtphoto2020's homepage! Find more posts by jtphoto2020 Add jtphoto2020 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
jtphoto2020
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Eau Claire Wisconsin
Posts: 20

Re: Shuster and choking

quote:
Originally posted by ref_hater
I'm surprised that Shuster hasn't worked with a sport psychologist to fix his choking when facing a draw with the game on the line. This would help him more than any HPP practice or coaching. He looks nervous and acts nervous. It seems to me if he learned some breathing techniques and practiced "game on the line" situations and a consistent pre shot routine, he could convert and reach his full potential. Visualization is helpful. Confidence is contagious, as is lack of confidence. If he looks nervous, he and his team will struggle.

If this isn't fixed, he will again choke with games on the line, and we will all be left scratching our heads. I truly hope he fixes it.



What bugs me is your assumption that Shuster hasn't worked on the psychological side of his game just because you don't see it when you watch him play on TV. Do you have some sort of inside information that he's ignoring a significant part of his game?

I'm so tired of all the Shuster hate. I guarantee if I had to draw the button to win a WCT game or Olympic qualifier I would probably pee my pants and get kicked out for wrecking the ice - forget about making the shot. Now THAT's a choke artist!

When's the last time you missed an important shot? How many people were watching and how many armchair curlers were holding you responsible for the future of the game in the USA?

Until someone can knock Shuster off the podium and finish higher at the Worlds he's the best we've got. Why not give him a little credit for that.

Jeff Thompson (not so much a wannabe as a never-was, never-will-be who wouldn't pretend to tell John Shuster how to play)

__________________
Jeff Thompson

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-26-16 01:34PM
tuck is offline Click Here to See the Profile for tuck Click here to Send tuck a Private Message Find more posts by tuck Add tuck to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
tuck
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

I may be way out-of-touch, but my impression is that the vast majority of USA curlers are Face Fanatics. The support his team received last year as they played on their own dime was almost to the Cassie Potter level.

Still, lots of casual fans and non-curling people do still hold lost opportunities against John and his team. I can see how that would grate on his supporters. I think this whole discussion is good and healthy.

I really liked IMWright's post; even though I disagree some of his comparisons. Legit comments about a guy I consider a friend. Mostly, I liked the comparison of this discussion with what they talk about ad nauseum concerning football on ESPN.

All last week, they spoke about how the Cardinals' quarterback looked nervous during the Green Bay game. Never did they call him a choker.

If we can keep the level of discourse up to that standard, we are going the right way. However, if we sink to the level of sports talk radio, many will avoid this site. Curlers aren't built like football fans.

BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND:

I've heard that Heater will be in Jacksonville to fill that last spot opened by Dropkin double-qualifying. All five of his team (Stop, Shortstop, Duck and Lazar) will be there. Rumor has it that they are united and determined to turn things around from their second-half showings. Here's hoping that we get the pre-HPP Heater. That would make things way more interesting...if only that SPM and Joey The Godfather's brains might explode trying to do play-by-play as Heater leads them into advanced offensive theory.

Ben Tucker

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-26-16 01:58PM
jhcurl is offline Click Here to See the Profile for jhcurl Click here to Send jhcurl a Private Message Visit jhcurl's homepage! Find more posts by jhcurl Add jhcurl to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
jhcurl
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431

quote:
Originally posted by tuck

BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND:

I've heard that Heater will be in Jacksonville to fill that last spot opened by Dropkin double-qualifying. All five of his team (Stop, Shortstop, Duck and Lazar) will be there. Rumor has it that they are united and determined to turn things around from their second-half showings. Here's hoping that we get the pre-HPP Heater. That would make things way more interesting...if only that SPM and Joey The Godfather's brains might explode trying to do play-by-play as Heater leads them into advanced offensive theory.

Ben Tucker



And with the change to the cresting rules this year, all micro sponsors will be displayed without duct tape. Also makes it easier on Stop since he won't have to keep reciting the list when they are miked up.

JH
did you know that Duck is moonlighting as a stand up comic

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-26-16 02:01PM
curlky is offline Click Here to See the Profile for curlky Click here to Send curlky a Private Message Find more posts by curlky Add curlky to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
curlky
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559

Put aside whether you would like to call Shuster a choker or not. Just focus on performance. He has probably shown that he is the best that the US Men has to offer right now. But on the elite world stage, he has not really performed all that well as compared to Elite World teams. And quite frankly, his last 2 Olympic performances have been, well awful.

Still does not take away from his performance versus other US teams, or B level teams from the rest of the world. But compared to the A level elite in the rest of the world, he is either choking, under performing, or just not as good, whichever opinion you would like to go with.

The truth is that most American sports fan don't settle for their team or player to be "the best of the rest". We want them to be "best of the best". If you are the best American at any sport, but cannot beat the best from other nations, most Americans consider that either choking or disappointing.

Look at the events that Shusters team has won in this years OOM. You will not see names like Koe, Howard, Carruthers, Eden, Jacobs, Gushue, McCewen, Ulsrud, Murdoch or Simmons. In the events that those A level names appear, he has mixed results ranging from not making playoffs to being 3rd or 5th. And I am not trying to disparage just being 3rd or 5th on the elite level. But if the goal is to be the best, Shuster is just not there. Add whatever adjective you would like to that to describe as you will.

To use an NFL analogy, John Shuster is Andy Dalton, QB for the Cincinnati Bengals

Last edited by curlky on 01-26-16 at 02:29PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-26-16 02:40PM
tuck is offline Click Here to See the Profile for tuck Click here to Send tuck a Private Message Find more posts by tuck Add tuck to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
tuck
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

You're setting the bar unrealistically high.

Face Team is Top 20 in both the OOM year-to-date and 2 year standings. If you take out the Canadian teams, they are 2nd in the World YTD and 3rd in the world 2 Year. Have they gotten our hopes up too high? Since when are we so great that those standings are anything less than thrilling?

I don't doubt your assessment of USA sport fans, but the "If your not Aaron Rodgers then just drop out" analogy seems disrespectful.

Ben Tucker

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-26-16 02:43PM
tuck is offline Click Here to See the Profile for tuck Click here to Send tuck a Private Message Find more posts by tuck Add tuck to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
tuck
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

Face has signature wins against the best in the world on a monthly basis. If that doesn't get you fired up, you should probably buy a Canadian flag because no other nation in the world is ready for you.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-26-16 02:56PM
biterbar is offline Click Here to See the Profile for biterbar Click here to Send biterbar a Private Message Find more posts by biterbar Add biterbar to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
biterbar
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695

The beauty of Shuster's standings on that OOM is only ONE Canadian team will be at worlds. All his time in Canada playing against 3 or 4 of those teams every event is raising his game closer to their level. We have a way to go, but if we can get to the playoffs in worlds anything can happen. I like our chances with him to medal this year.

I also believe as you line the four teammates up against the Canadian competition by position (lead through skip) Shuster plays closest by position.

__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-26-16 04:01PM
curlky is offline Click Here to See the Profile for curlky Click here to Send curlky a Private Message Find more posts by curlky Add curlky to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
curlky
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559

quote:
Originally posted by tuck
You're setting the bar unrealistically high.


tuck I think you missed my point completely. I'm not setting any bar at all. I'm more giving factual observations about who Shuster is. So many people call Shuster a choker, while others (like you) say that clearly he is not. My point is that the better truth is that he is not great to begin with (just on the outside looking in), so he is not quite good enough to technically choke.

I do think regardless of whether you like the HPP or not, of if you like the OOM part of being the World representative, Shuster has definitely gotten much better, and I think that being forced to play in tough events is a big part of that.

I think biterbar has a good point. At the next World or Olympics, Shuster is top third. He will likely finish behind Canada (whomever that is), Sweden & Norway. Then you have Shuster and perhaps two other teams hoping things fall their way to get a bronze, but likely looking at 4-6 finish.

Last edited by curlky on 01-26-16 at 04:12PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-26-16 06:31PM
tuck is offline Click Here to See the Profile for tuck Click here to Send tuck a Private Message Find more posts by tuck Add tuck to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
tuck
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

I disagree with Biterbar and I usually don't do that.

The name of the game at Worlds has always been to make the playoffs and then hope Canada sucks that day. So for non-Canadians, it's all about your World standings. I think that Face Team is right there at the top.

Only Edin can claim higher and they are fulltime pros. If we funded Face to that extent, they'd probably be in the Top 10.

Ben Tucker

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-26-16 07:50PM
ref_hater is offline Click Here to See the Profile for ref_hater Click here to Send ref_hater a Private Message Find more posts by ref_hater Add ref_hater to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
ref_hater
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 18

Don't mistake my opinion of what Shuster needs to work on to podium as hate. I am a big supporter of John and want him to succeed.

That said, nobody else has said a single thing that you think he needs to improve to reach a podium at world competitions. Why is that? I think this is the perfect place to have such a fun and entertaining debate. Why is everyone so defensive when discussing weaknesses or opportunities for our favorite curlers to improve?

Tuck, I think your expectations are indeed too low. I bet John believes he can win a world championship. Strategy to do that involves a lot more than hoping Canadians have a rough day.

Success on the WCT is great for Shuster, but not world elite podium results, which I think he is capable of, if...

For the sake of comparison, making shots in the Thursday night fun club league is a lot easier than in a bonspiel championship match. Those are apples and oranges to compare. Shuster winning WCT events (not slams) is the apple to a Slam or World podium orange.

I'm sure he wants to achieve that. We all want him to.

My question is, and I have bluntly stated my opinion, what do you think he needs to do better to achieve those goals?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-26-16 07:59PM
ref_hater is offline Click Here to See the Profile for ref_hater Click here to Send ref_hater a Private Message Find more posts by ref_hater Add ref_hater to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
ref_hater
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 18

I have no inside information. I only have observations from what I watch. To me, I don't see Shuster executing the simple things which would most easily improve dealing with pressure.

Skipping is entirely about pressure. Applying maximum pressure on opponents, minimizing pressure on yourself, and making the pressure shots at critical times. From what I see, John does the first two very well, and still has room to continue improving the last.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 12:58PM
IMWright is offline Click Here to See the Profile for IMWright Click here to Send IMWright a Private Message Find more posts by IMWright Add IMWright to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
IMWright
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 206

Shusters record this year against:

Top 20 OOM: 5-20
Top 41 OOM: 10-22
Top 101 OOM: 24-22
Top 514 OOM: 40-23

Digging deeper into the numbers, for teams ranked 21-41, he has a record of 5-2 (not too bad). For teams ranked 42-101, he has a record of 14-0 (pretty good). And for teams ranked 102-514, his record is 16-1 (pretty good as well).

So, what does this mean? Essentially, he beats the teams he should beat, but does not beat the top 20, in which he has only a 20% win percentage which I think is fairly low. Now, there are quite a few Canadian teams in the top 20, and he only would have to face one of them if he goes to Worlds. However, Sweden, Norway, Scotland, and the Swiss are also in the top 20, which in a 10 team Worlds event, would put him in the middle of the pack with some 20% percentage chance of beating a team thats in the top 20. So, that leaves a an off chance of making the playoffs if a particular game goes right and he gets some help from other teams.

Now the same analysis for

Craig Brown:

Top 20 OOM: 6-17
Top 43 OOM: 8-21
Top 101: 18-23
Top 404 OOM: 32-27

So, Brown has a 6-17 win record against the Top 20 OOM teams. For teams rated 21-43, record is 2-4, for teams rated 44-101, record is 10-2, and teams rated 102-404, record is 13-4.

So, comparing the two, you see fairly similar trends. Brown has a 26% win record against the top 20 teams; still fairly low. But in general, I see the same conclusion as I do for Shuster, he beats the teams he should beat, but in general, not the teams in the top 20. I dont have a sense if 20% (Shuster) vs. 26% (Brown) is really significant or not; my gut is it probably isnt, but I could be wrong.

Now, this begs the question of where should they be in the record? if they want to be one of the top teams. So, if we take a well-established Canadian team in the top 20 for OOM and do the same analysis; I just picked Kevin Koe randomly (I purposely didn't pick the number 1 in OOM):

Top 20 OOM: 34-11
Top 40 OOM: 38-12
Top 100 OOM: 43-12
Top 272 OOM: 49-13

So, just looking at the first stat you can see a huge difference, he has a 76% win record against top 20 OOM teams. Now, I would say that is significantly different from where Brown/Shuster are at.

So, based off of this, I leave the question, how can they (Brown, Shuster, any US team for that matter), crack into that Top 20 or increase that win percentage against top 20 teams?

And yes, one answer may be The HPP is the answer. Well, Brown has been in the program for several years now (Shuster is in it for the first time this year, so its hard to determine what from the HPP has helped him or not). Perhaps its just simply playing more highly ranked teams (Koe played 45 matches against top 20 teams, Shuster was 25, Brown was 23). I don't know what the answer is.

If the USCA has decided that the HPP is the answer, what is the measure of success? In other words, how do we know if we have succeeded? I think that may be fairly easy to answer (world medals, that list of accomplishments they send to the USOC each year, etc.). But, I think the opposite question should be answered as well, and Im not sure Ive heard a good answer to that. How do we know if we have failed? How do we know if this (HPP) is not working and are not having the desired results. Or how do we know that the current path is not improving things (so not a huge failure, but not an improvement). Since there appears to not be a good answer from USCA/HPP regarding this (maybe there is somewhere and I dont know it), people make their own conclusions on what is failure, and people have concluded that the HPP has been failing. Unfortunately, it appears that when some try to ask any questions, they are responded to with a very defensive tone, which doesnt help move the conversation forward. The (some) powers-that-be dismiss comments/questions and say people are just hating on them and hoping the HPP (and hence, the teams) fails, which I think very few people really want that.

This analysis doesn't show much of a difference between Shuster and Brown, so this probably extends further than just Shuster not being able to "seal the deal"; it's extending into all elite US curlers. What is fundamentally going on with US curling? What needs to change? Is it simply just allowing teams to go out and play more elite teams (should be an easy fix then)? Do we just need to hire some Canadian coaches :: grin :: ? Many other countries have done that.

-I.M. Wright

(Disclaimer: I hope I'm not missing any of the numbers, but even if a game or something is left out from the analysis, I don't think the conclusions change)

Last edited by IMWright on 01-27-16 at 01:12PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 01:30PM
jtphoto2020 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for jtphoto2020 Click here to Send jtphoto2020 a Private Message Visit jtphoto2020's homepage! Find more posts by jtphoto2020 Add jtphoto2020 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
jtphoto2020
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Eau Claire Wisconsin
Posts: 20

For those with more time and inclination towards research, what happens if you take away all the Canadians but one, then take away the "usual suspects" from the rest of the world. Take away, Edin, Ulsrud, Brewster and Murdoch. Now where does the USA fit in? Can we beat the second best team from those countries? Maybe we're not as far behind everyone (but Canada) as it looks? Do we have maybe the 5th or 6th best non-Canadian team on a regular basis?

Of course we want to be number one. We're Americans - we think we can be number one at everything. But maybe we just don't have the numbers (Canada) or the budget (Sweden - one fully funded professional team) for this to be realistic.

Maybe we need to look only as far as soccer to see what the answer is. Though we still are a long way from being competitive on the world stage, we have gotten better by building slowly (sometimes painfully) from the bottom up. I'm 50 and grew up in Minnesota. We didn't have soccer at all when I was a kid. Now my 13-year-old has been playing soccer since he was five. Im guessing that in another 10 or 20 years you might see that the USA is finally competitive (On the men's side - we're ahead with the women) in international soccer.

Our success in soccer isn't because we've put all our resources into the national team. The success has come from creating an ever-growing pool of players to choose from.

So how does this work for curling? I feel we need to be putting in far more resources to make youth competitive curling a bigger deal. Maybe we need a "bantam" HP program or something. Or some other non-HP approach to getting more younger kids interested in curling as a viable alternative to other sports. A "real" sport if you will.

I run our club's junior program and while we've had good success introducing curling as a fun recreational thing to do on Saturday mornings, the kids don't think of it the same way they do their "main sport" whatever that is. Imagine how many gifted young athletes are out there who might be the next Kevin Koe if we gave them a little stronger shove?

Just some rambling thoughts to avoid the work I should be doing!

__________________
Jeff Thompson

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 02:41PM
IMWright is offline Click Here to See the Profile for IMWright Click here to Send IMWright a Private Message Find more posts by IMWright Add IMWright to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
IMWright
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 206

quote:
Originally posted by jtphoto2020
For those with more time and inclination towards research, what happens if you take away all the Canadians but one, then take away the "usual suspects" from the rest of the world. Take away, Edin, Ulsrud, Brewster and Murdoch. Now where does the USA fit in? Can we beat the second best team from those countries? Maybe we're not as far behind everyone (but Canada) as it looks? Do we have maybe the 5th or 6th best non-Canadian team on a regular basis?

Of course we want to be number one. We're Americans - we think we can be number one at everything. But maybe we just don't have the numbers (Canada) or the budget (Sweden - one fully funded professional team) for this to be realistic.

Maybe we need to look only as far as soccer to see what the answer is. Though we still are a long way from being competitive on the world stage, we have gotten better by building slowly (sometimes painfully) from the bottom up. I'm 50 and grew up in Minnesota. We didn't have soccer at all when I was a kid. Now my 13-year-old has been playing soccer since he was five. Im guessing that in another 10 or 20 years you might see that the USA is finally competitive (On the men's side - we're ahead with the women) in international soccer.

Our success in soccer isn't because we've put all our resources into the national team. The success has come from creating an ever-growing pool of players to choose from.

So how does this work for curling? I feel we need to be putting in far more resources to make youth competitive curling a bigger deal. Maybe we need a "bantam" HP program or something. Or some other non-HP approach to getting more younger kids interested in curling as a viable alternative to other sports. A "real" sport if you will.

I run our club's junior program and while we've had good success introducing curling as a fun recreational thing to do on Saturday mornings, the kids don't think of it the same way they do their "main sport" whatever that is. Imagine how many gifted young athletes are out there who might be the next Kevin Koe if we gave them a little stronger shove?

Just some rambling thoughts to avoid the work I should be doing!



I didn't crunch the numbers, but the data suggests that yes, if you take out the usual suspects, they should be able to win, since they would be up against the ~21-50 ranked players (You've eliminated the top 20 in OOM essentially). I guess I don't see your point. Yes, if you ignore the people above you in ranking, then you will be at the new top. The data suggests what you just said, that they're not consistently winning against that top 20 OOM. So as far as where they're at for OOM ranking goes, it's probably accurate.

In regards to strategy to get better, I agree. An important long term strategy is to encourage junior curling. Like most sports, if you increase the numbers, you'll have a larger talent pool, and you'll have better curlers, especially starting at a young age.

Last edited by IMWright on 01-27-16 at 02:58PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 03:11PM
curlky is offline Click Here to See the Profile for curlky Click here to Send curlky a Private Message Find more posts by curlky Add curlky to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
curlky
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559

quote:
Originally posted by IMWright

If the USCA has decided that the HPP is the answer, what is the measure of success? In other words, how do we know if we have succeeded? I think that may be fairly easy to answer (world medals, that list of accomplishments they send to the USOC each year, etc.). But, I think the opposite question should be answered as well, and Im not sure Ive heard a good answer to that. How do we know if we have failed? How do we know if this (HPP) is not working and are not having the desired results. Or how do we know that the current path is not improving things (so not a huge failure, but not an improvement). Since there appears to not be a good answer from USCA/HPP regarding this (maybe there is somewhere and I dont know it), people make their own conclusions on what is failure, and people have concluded that the HPP has been failing. Unfortunately, it appears that when some try to ask any questions, they are responded to with a very defensive tone, which doesnt help move the conversation forward. The (some) powers-that-be dismiss comments/questions and say people are just hating on them and hoping the HPP (and hence, the teams) fails, which I think very few people really want that.

This analysis doesn't show much of a difference between Shuster and Brown, so this probably extends further than just Shuster not being able to "seal the deal"; it's extending into all elite US curlers. What is fundamentally going on with US curling? What needs to change? Is it simply just allowing teams to go out and play more elite teams (should be an easy fix then)? Do we just need to hire some Canadian coaches :: grin :: ? Many other countries have done that.

-I.M. Wright

(Disclaimer: I hope I'm not missing any of the numbers, but even if a game or something is left out from the analysis, I don't think the conclusions change)



For the short term, the best that the US can offer, is to try to get our current best to their max ability. Long term, the answer is generational, and will require the crop of current Juniors of bantams to have advanced training throughout their curling careers. Look at it this way. For the mens HPP teams, let me list birth years of the teams

Brown - 1975, 1984, 1991, 1988
Fenson - 1968, 1987, 1982, 1988
Shuster - 1982, 1982, 1989, 1990

At what point does the expression "You cant teach an old dog new tricks". In other words, at some point, you reach your potential, because you are older, set in your ways, and it becomes challenging to get your body to do things better. (I'm sure you can list exceptions, but this is true as a whole)

The long term game, is to take people in their mid-20's, and get them experience now, so they can progress to a higher level than we have ever had. For example, Craig Brown is 41, but his front end are 25 & 28. Looking at all the teams, the HPP is trying to get better results now obviously, but the big thing they are doing is setting up names like Zezzle, Landsteiner, Hamilton & Plys for long term success. With the goal of getting better US depth than what we have ever had. If you look at YTD OOM, and average teh Top 20 US mens teams, our average is 157. If you look just at teh Top 10, our average is 84. Just our Top 5 is still 50. (and before anyone tells me, I understand how the OOM system could be considered self rewarding)

So what do those numbers tell you? The US lacks quality depth, and as these young curlers start skipping their own teams, we will end up with the Top 20 teams in the US all in the Top 100 OOM rankings.

Someone made an example of soccer. When I was a kid, my parents had no idea what soccer was when i was playing, they just knew I wanted to play. Now, my generation has kids, and now you have parents who can actually teach/help their kids. This generational improvement can be seen on teh international stage, as US soccer has as much more more talent than we have ever had.

Sorry for the rambling

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 03:14PM
Gerry is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Gerry Click here to Send Gerry a Private Message Visit Gerry's homepage! Find more posts by Gerry Add Gerry to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Gerry
CZ Founder

 

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

Something to consider, John Shuster has only been to Worlds as a skip twice. Back in 2009 and then again last year. This is not a lot of experience at that level, but they reached tiebreakers both years.

Should John be able to finish the job again this year and it's looking really good, they'll be going in with more experience that should set them up for success.

Many other countries send experienced opponents with the limited number of elite teams in their countries and being there before is an advantage.

__________________
CurlingZone
Everything...Curling!

Please click on our sponsors' banners periodically, as visiting their sites helps keep CurlingZone.com Free!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 03:27PM
curlky is offline Click Here to See the Profile for curlky Click here to Send curlky a Private Message Find more posts by curlky Add curlky to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
curlky
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559

quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
Something to consider, John Shuster has only been to Worlds as a skip twice. Back in 2009 and then again last year. This is not a lot of experience at that level, but they reached tiebreakers both years.


Hasnt he been a skip twice in teh Olympics (2010 & 2014)? While not exactly the worlds, the Olympics are basically equal to the Worlds. How did he fair in his two Olympic Skipping experiences?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 03:32PM
NLcurlingguy is offline Click Here to See the Profile for NLcurlingguy Click here to Send NLcurlingguy a Private Message Find more posts by NLcurlingguy Add NLcurlingguy to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
NLcurlingguy
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2015
Location:
Posts: 51

I don't know that I would be so harsh as to say John Shuster is a choker. He has missed clutch shots, just like every other skip that I have watched over the years. BUT, he is dedicated to the game and certainly this squad strives to improve. I have been at a few GSOC events and watched even more where Shuster is in the mix and I think they have lots of potential and certainly, I have seen the growth.

The likes of Shuster, et al are significant players in the growth of USA curling, in my humble opinion.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 04:37PM
jtphoto2020 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for jtphoto2020 Click here to Send jtphoto2020 a Private Message Visit jtphoto2020's homepage! Find more posts by jtphoto2020 Add jtphoto2020 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
jtphoto2020
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Eau Claire Wisconsin
Posts: 20

quote:
Originally posted by IMWright


I didn't crunch the numbers, but the data suggests that yes, if you take out the usual suspects, they should be able to win, since they would be up against the ~21-50 ranked players (You've eliminated the top 20 in OOM essentially). I guess I don't see your point. Yes, if you ignore the people above you in ranking, then you will be at the new top. The data suggests what you just said, that they're not consistently winning against that top 20 OOM. So as far as where they're at for OOM ranking goes, it's probably accurate.

In regards to strategy to get better, I agree. An important long term strategy is to encourage junior curling. Like most sports, if you increase the numbers, you'll have a larger talent pool, and you'll have better curlers, especially starting at a young age.



My point is simply that maybe things aren't quite as dire as they look. We're a long way from being Canada and having that kind of depth. In reality we probably never will be at that level. They have such strong teams because they have such strong competition from the time they're kids.

So we have to look at ourselves compared to the rest of the world. It's apparent that our current men's teams come up just short of those top teams from the rest of the world. As long as those teams stay together it's going to be really hard to catch them. But take a little look into the future and things start to look a little better. Those countries don't have Canadian depth either, so the chance of the US to be a strong number two is very real. The Dropkin and Clawson junior rinks are very young by men's standards and they have a lot of potential to get to the very top level.

__________________
Jeff Thompson

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 04:39PM
rbi is offline Click Here to See the Profile for rbi Click here to Send rbi a Private Message Find more posts by rbi Add rbi to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
rbi
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: May 2014
Location:
Posts: 143

I've been critical of the HPP, but I do agree that the focus on OOM points has helped to push USA teams (especially Shuster and EBrown) to play more games against top competition.

Maybe Shuster is winning only 1 in 5 games against top 20 teams, and hopefully that will improve in the future, but I think the big metric to look at is the number of games played against top 20 teams. The more of those USA plays the better they will do in international competition. at first there will be losses and later there will be wins.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 04:45PM
rbi is offline Click Here to See the Profile for rbi Click here to Send rbi a Private Message Find more posts by rbi Add rbi to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
rbi
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: May 2014
Location:
Posts: 143

so ref_hater, no, I don't think "choking under pressure" is USA's biggest issue. the biggest issue is money and support. looking at all of the teams/countries above USA, they all have more money and more support available to them. so they can train more, compete more, earn more OOM points, get invited to more slams, and learn how to win.

Sure, a sports psychologist will help, but I think the big issue is money.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 04:51PM
fanofcurling is offline Click Here to See the Profile for fanofcurling Click here to Send fanofcurling a Private Message Find more posts by fanofcurling Add fanofcurling to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
fanofcurling
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 81

Looking at the OOM as the measure of success is just wrong! If other US curling teams had the money to attend 10 - 15 events (maybe more!) in a curling season, they would have a lot of OOM points too!

If OOM was the only measure of success, then Carey wouldn't have beat Sweeting, or Robertson wouldn't have beat Scott, or Hanna wouldn't have beat Homan.

The USCA (not USA) HPP teams "appear" more successful because of all the events they attend. But other good teams don't have the money that the USCA is giving the HPP teams. (The USCA essentially bought OOM points.) (example... one win for an entire event over a team ranked 200 and that gets them 3 OOM points for the HPP team in that event.) Call it what you want.

Use the OOM to motivate, to reward, to encourage. BUT OOM should not be the measure by which we "partially" pre-ordain a National Champion. Let them win Nationals for the right to go to Worlds. WHAT are you afraid of? Oh! The long shot winning Nationals? And when did that happen? How often? Honestly, a long shot winning would be good for the longevity and growth of competitive curling in the usa.

Oh wait.. we need to win today... But at the cost of the growth of the competitive sport tomorrow.

I can't imagine Shuster will go into Worlds with a "winning attitude" if he finishes 3rd at Nationals. We saw how that worked on the women's side last year and the year before.

I want Shuster to win Nationals!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 06:06PM
rbi is offline Click Here to See the Profile for rbi Click here to Send rbi a Private Message Find more posts by rbi Add rbi to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
rbi
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: May 2014
Location:
Posts: 143

...to be clear I do NOT like the idea of using OOM points for everything and REALLY DO NOT like using it to decide who goes to worlds. IMO, the OOM points should help some teams to qualify for nationals, but the National Champion should go to worlds.

All I was saying (in the post above) is that the emphasis on OOM points has helped encourage USA teams to play more events against top competition which is a good thing.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-27-16 09:43PM
curlky is offline Click Here to See the Profile for curlky Click here to Send curlky a Private Message Find more posts by curlky Add curlky to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
curlky
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559

quote:
Originally posted by fanofcurling
Looking at the OOM as the measure of success is just wrong! If other US curling teams had the money to attend 10 - 15 events (maybe more!) in a curling season, they would have a lot of OOM points too!


Well, I guess that depends on how you define "a lot". Just entering a big event does not give you all that many points. Look at Brown and Shuster, the events where they don't make the playoffs, they only earn a couple of points. So sure, if the lesser teams in teh US got into bigger events, they would increase by a few points, but not a number that is statistically significant.

Furthermore, I believe that only your top 6 events go into your YTD OOM score, so getting into 6 should be all you need, not to 10-15 or more.

Anyone who does not like the current system fine. But the Ric Flair sentiment "To be the best you have to beat the best" holds true in curling as well. OOm forcing playing agasint better teams is a huge factor in every elite team getting better

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-28-16 06:07PM
tuck is offline Click Here to See the Profile for tuck Click here to Send tuck a Private Message Find more posts by tuck Add tuck to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
tuck
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

A minor correction, Ky. I believe the "best 6" rule is for USA World Team Selection and the OOM discussion we've been having doesn't use that limitation. YTD OOM counts them all. So more funding to attend more events would impact Face Team's OOM YTD standings.

I could be wrong either in my understanding of the standings OR in curlKy's interpretation of the standings for this thread OR both.

I've read everything with an open mind, but nothing I've read has changed my mind. Face has had a lot of games that are heavily viewed. Some of his misses were memorable. I think both skew the perception.

I still maintain that it is absolutely impossible to achieve his rankings over the last two years and accumulate his number of titles while flinching under pressure. Is there room for improvement? Probably. If so, I'm dead certain that Face will be striving for that improvement with every tool at his disposal. Are there other skips I'd rather have throwing the hammer? Maybe some for a draw and others for a cross house-double; but nobody else for the full range of shots.

I'll say it again: None of those 4 guys who won the Olympic Qualifying Event can ever be called a choker in my presence. Anyone who does not see the pressure of that situation does not understand sports.

Ben Tucker

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

All times are GMT. The time now is . Post New Thread   Post A Reply
Page 3 of 8 -- Go to: ««   | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | »»   Last Thread   Next Thread
Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to thisThread

Forum Jump:
Rate This Thread:

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 

Curling Scores

M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: M5 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 7:00pm CT
Fitzgerald Final
Guentzel (10) Watch Live Curling!
Cenzalli Final
Rose (10) Watch Live Curling!
Church Final
Lannoye (10) Watch Live Curling!
Hebert Final
Brenden (9) Watch Live Curling!
W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: W4 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 2:00pm CT
Scheel Final
Berg (9) Watch Live Curling!
Pekowitz Final
Berg (9) Watch Live Curling!
Schapman Final
Johnson (10) Watch Live Curling!
Giroux 12  Final
Viau (9) Watch Live Curling!
M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
Lott/Lott Final
Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
Delorey Final
Lockhart (EE)
Full Scoreboard  |  Play Fantasy Pick'em!  

Recent News

Recent
Homan Brings Home Gold

Homan Brings Home Gold

Sydney, Canada - In front of a full house with over 4,000 spectators, Canada (photo: Stephen Fisher, World Curling) beat Switzerland by 7-5 to take gold at the BKT Tires World Women's Curling Championship 2024.

Curling Photos

Recent

Curling Blogs

Facebook Feed

Twitter Feed

To top ↑